Talk:Star Wars: Dark Forces/Archive 1

old article
was:

Star Wars: Dark Forces is a video game about a Rebel mercenary called Kyle Kytarn who discovers a formidable Imperial mechanical type of troop called Dark Troopers.

Dunc|&#9786; 19:08, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Doom WADs
I've heard that Dark Forces was created in response to all the unofficial Star Wars WADs for Doom. Can anyone verify this? - Fredrik | talk 22:37, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC) Development was begun before Doom was released. After Doom was released, they decided to pull back the release date to do some more work on it. Showers 06:15, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks
I thank the person who created a new version of this article. Last time I saw it, it was only about 2 or 3 lines long.

Alt Trigger
I removed the line "possiby the first" regarding the alt-trigger function, as Marathon from Bungie has this three months earlier.

GBA version
I've heard rumors that a GBA version of this game was released. Anyone confirm? 4.156.159.93 01:23, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I could not verify this with a quick check of gamefaqs. Maybe someone ported it to GBA, but I can't verify that either. --Thaddius 18:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe I would've heard if that had happened. --DocumentN (talk) 00:44, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Battles
This section has been removed from the main article for these reasons: If anyone disagrees please let me know Tonicthebrown 22:51, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I do not believe a detailed chronicle of battles/levels is encyclopedic
 * The list of battles has never been completed anyway (we only have the first 3 levels done)
 * A more concise description of each level has now been included in the article
 * Some of the material really isn't relevant to the game itself

Battle of Danuta
Striking from a hidden base, the Rebel Alliance attacked the Imperial facility on Danuta, where a partial set of the Death Star plans were hidden.

During the battle, Kyle Katarn, a former Imperial-turned-Rebel agent was sent down by Mon Mothma into the facility to retrieve the Death Star plans. Cutting through the station's defenses, he reached the control room, where he found the plans. He escaped with the plans and ensured the first Rebel victory, though with massive losses.

With the Danuta schematics, plus the other set stolen from the Death Star during a Rebel prison break, the Rebels put them together and beamed them to Ralltiir to Princess Leia's ship, the Tantive IV.

Massacre on Talay
General Mohc, a leading scientist in the Galactic Empire, studied battle droids used by the Confederacy in the Clone Wars. Desiring to improve upon what he saw as flawed designs, Mohc developed the next generation of stormtrooper. Using a battle droid skeleton, plus thick, hard armor, he created fearsome supersoldiers, which he called Dark Troopers.

In retaliation for the destruction of the Death Star, plus to test his new creations' power, Mohc dispatched a squad of Dark Troopers to the Rebel held city of Tak, on the planet Talay. There, a fierce battle took place that ended in a horrendous defeat for the Rebels. Countless soldiers and civilians were killed in the battle.

Kyle Katarn, the man who had stolen the original plans to the Death Star, went to Talay in search of clues to the Dark Trooper identity. He found a huge blaster rifle that no ordinary human could carry and deduced that it belonged to the Dark Troopers.

In the timeline of battles, the Revenge on Talay occurred before the Battle of Thyferra and after the Battle of Yavin.

Anoat City: the Subterranean Hideout
After studying the weapon found at the destroyed Tak Base, Rebel engineers discovered a label carrying the insigia "M.R.", the calling card of the infamous Imperial Engineer Moff Rebus. Rebus had been a weapons developer for the Empire and "retired" to the city of Anoat on the planet of the same name, but not before General Mohc contacted him to develope the new Dark Trooper Assault Cannon.

When the Rebels found out about Rebus' involvment with the Dark Trooper Project they hired Kyle Katarn to infiltrate his hideout on Anoat and bring him in.

The underground base that Rebus occupied was very elaborate and secure. A series of switches activated sewer gates at the opening of the base that led to a main drain chamber. When all the secondary switches that were spread throughout the facility were thrown, the floor of this chamber would rise up to meet a small opening in the other side of the room. The corridor that was on the other side of the opening led to a large room with several columns that were once connected by bridges, but now were isolated. After they were passed a bridge would be crossed, which led to Rebus' personal lab and arsenal, which included several Imperial Torture Droids. Rebus himself was gaurded by a large wall that dropped from the ceiling and four large gun turrets that popped from the wall.

Kyle battled Dianoga creatures and several droids to find Moff Rebus, and when he did he handed him over to the Rebel Alliance for questioning.

Mod for Jedi Academy
What about the Dark forces Mod for Jedi Academy? http://darkforces.jediknight.net/ Aero Flame 22:00, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't consider that link relevant enough to be put in a encyclopedia article. We already have something about the games enduring popularity and the fact that it is being converted for play on newer game engines. I don't know if any more are really necessary. Showers 17:12, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Someone's removed the latter reference now. I think the mod is relevant in that it's the most complete and detailed version of the game that exists, and in that anyone reading the article is probably interested in DF and would want to try the mod. --DocumentN (talk) 00:51, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Screenshots
The number of screenshots in this article isn't the problem... it's what the screenshots show that's more of an issue. Fine, there are images showing the technology and characters, but there isn't a single screenshot which shows the actual gameplay! Could someone take a screenshot and upload it to address this problem? UnaLaguna 08:30, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Alot of the shots in the technical section and the pics of the probe droid and dark trooper are from actual gameplay, but Im assuming you want something with blasters going off. Showers 20:32, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Just an uncropped screenshot of the player shooting stuff... basically, something which shows what the game looks like to the player, interface, shooting et al. UnaLaguna 21:35, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Mac Version
It might be worth mentioning that the Mac version had double the resolution of the PC version (640x400 rather than 320x200 i believe) and additional controls possible; also, the requirements are only listed for the PC version -- although I don't know the requirements for the Mac version im sure df-21 has them Jhaagsma 23:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That's actually quadruple the resolution (4x the pixels) and it was the case, unfortunately, for me and other players of the PC version. :) --Swaaye 07:06, 30 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Ahh... yes I guess it would be :) - I wonder if theres any way to emulate it on my PC... Jhaagsma 08:17, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

First game with jumping/crouching?
I've looked around a lot and as far as I can tell this was the original first-person shooter game to implement jumping, crouching, and the ability to look up and down. Can anyone verify? Some guy 06:24, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I think Ultima Underworld had at least a look up/down function first. --DocumentN 14:12, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Opinion rather than fact/inaccuracies
This is the para. in question. I'll break it up to make comments.


 * "While Dark Forces received quite favorable reviews, the game was perceived by many to be lacking in a few areas."

If anything, DF fell short of some gamers' expectations. Perhaps a rewording is warranted here?


 * "Most criticized was the lack of any sort of multiplayer mode, in light of Doom's recent popularization of competitive first person gaming."

Doom's levels are simply maze puzzles stocked with monsters. DF's levels were fully fleshed out missions with each level having specific and multiple tasks and objectives.

Doom can remove the monsters leaving behind a playable deathmatch level. Its simplistic shooting gallery nature is also a no-brainer for co-op implementation.

Stripping out the monsters from a DF level would not produce a playable deathmatch level. The level layout would not be conducive to deathmatch play because each tells a story through its design rather than being a generic collection of linked fight areas as in Doom.

As for co-op gameplay, DF would have had to be a different design from the bottom up. Mission and level design for cooperative play is on an order of magnitude more complex, time consuming and costly than it is for solo missions and levels. (It also, sort of ironically, can impose limitations on what kinds of activities can be done.) This was obviously an important choice to make for Lucasarts, but the choice made was probably the most logical and feasible, all things considered.
 * "Gamers had dreamed of competing with one another for years in a first-person Star Wars environment, but it was not to happen until the Dark Forces sequel, Jedi Knight."

Cool. Reference that in a non-derogatory non-"pinin' for the fjords" way.


 * "An additional issue cited by critics was the game designers' choice to allow saving only at the completion of each (often long and tedious) mission"

It was controversial but the system remains as one of the best to evoke tension while still being a clever compromise. DF wants the player to feel that every step counts, and this is reflected not only here but in nearly every area of the game's design.

Oh, long? Yes. Walk them. Time them. Some levels/missions are quite large and long. But isn't that a good thing?

Tedious? I would disagree. But that's my opinion. We shouldn't post our opinions.


 * "although there were mid-level checkpoints that the player could restart from as long as he had extra lives."

If the player character died in DF, it respawned in the last completed safe area. Health and armor were reset to full levels. Also, any adversaries that were were damaged upon player death remained damaged. The game made the event of death important but still fair and not frustrating.


 * "This design decision in games has always been a controversial one, and this was no less so for Dark Forces."

Controversial perhaps to those who prefer to "save cheat" and to those who feel that every game should operate the same way, but it was a good design decision for the Dark Forces game, which has to be appreciated holistically. This line is pretty much fluff.

Major cut down
I notice someone has made some major cuts to the article's content. While I agree that there was a lot of trivial detail which the article could have done without, I would request that such significant modifications be discussed on the talk page first, in case other editors disagree. I feel that the cut down has reduced some parts of the article a little too much, resulting in a somewhat dry feel. Tonicthebrown (talk) 02:30, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree Showers (talk) 02:49, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I have reverted the article. Please note that I do not disagree in principle with some of the revisions that were made. However, to be fair to other editors, such large scale revision should be discussed first before proceeding. Thank you Tonicthebrown (talk) 04:01, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I soon will restore most of my edits, although I'll take another look at the diffs to see what's salvageable. The material I removed was unsourced, non-npov, OR, and/or gameguide/plot trivia. The burden of proof for substantiating claims is on the editor adding or restoring material, and User:Tonicthebrown has not done that. --EEMIV (talk) 04:11, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll do it section-by-section; if there's a particular assertion or comment someone wants added, please provide citations or otherwise articulate a rationale for its inclusion. --EEMIV (talk) 04:12, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * EEMIV, would it be possible for us to work together on revising this article? I do agree with many of the changes you are making, but I do think some of them go too far. I would prefer it if you took a little more time to consult with other editors who have an interest in the article. Tonicthebrown (talk) 05:21, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Whack away; I'm going to bed. --EEMIV (talk) 05:28, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks mate. Here is an explanation of some of my changes.
 * I think it is okay to have a brief weapons section under gameplay, since this is such an important aspect of an FPS game, and thus helps the reader get a feel for the game. Mentioning the stormtrooper rifle helps emphasise the fact that the game is set in the SW universe. The facts about alt-fire and Justin Fisher's comments are still unreferenced, but they are interesting facts so I've left them in case someone is able to verify them in future.
 * I think the Locations section is legitimate. It is only brief, and gives the reader an appreciation for the variety in the game. I've removed some of the unencyclopedic comments, and added in other details which are more relevant to the plot.
 * I've made cuts and revisions to several other areas which you'd probably agree with.
 * I've put the criticisms into a separate paragraph. These were genuine criticisms made at the time, and it would be good to reference them (eg. dig up some old PC game magazines).
 * The sentence about Dark Forge is not a self-plug by Brad Oliver. Dark Forge was the principal editor for Mac users, equivalent to DFUSE/WDFUSE for PC users. Tonicthebrown (talk) 06:41, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Weapons
This entire section is WP:GAMEGUIDE material. The first paragraph regurgitates material I'd expected to see in the FPS article. Additionally:


 * In common with most FPS games, Dark Forces features a range of weapons that utilize different kinds of ammunition.

Citation for "most" and the ammo thing?? --EEMIV (talk) 04:35, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 *  In early missions, the player has access to simple weapons such as the stormtrooper rifle, but as the game progresses increasingly powerful guns become available, including a mortar gun and a concussion rifle. 

"Simple" is non-npov, and the rest is plot summary, and nothing special about this game. --EEMIV (talk) 04:35, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The game also features throwable grenade-like thermal detonators and anti-personnel mines. 

XX-like without substantiation is OR. Again, minutiae for an FPS. --EEMIV (talk) 04:35, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Notably, Dark Forces was one of the first FPS games to implement alt-fire modes for the game's weaponry.

If it weren't notable, it wouldn't be here. Even without the useless transition, a claim like this needs substantiation. This is actually kind of interesting, though; I may have integrated it in my earlier revision. --EEMIV (talk) 04:35, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

As for the second paragraph:
 * Although there is no lightsaber in Dark Forces (since Kyle Katarn was not yet a Jedi), much disappointed discussion over this omission may have shifted the direction of the sequel to chronicle Katarn's rise as a Jedi. 

"Much disappointed discussion"? Where? Citation? Substantiation? "May have shifted" is entirely speculative OR. --EEMIV (talk) 04:35, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Oddly, many of the Dark Forces weapons have not shown up elsewhere in the Star Wars universe; 

How is this odd? How many is "many"? Did someone do a headcount, or is this just someone's gut feeling? --EEMIV (talk) 04:35, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * game designer Justin Fisher admitted that weapons like the Bryar laser pistol and Packard mortar gun were named after his personal favorites, such as 1950s Packard automobiles.

Attributing a confession-- oops, "admission" requires a citation, which has been absent since August. Again, I may have put this somewhere in my revision but realize now it should have been deleted. --EEMIV (talk) 04:35, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The quotes about the weapon names probably came from here at The Dark Forces FAQList, under "5.1 Weapons". --DocumentN (talk) 00:57, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * That is not a reliable source. Showers (talk) 15:52, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Story
The subheading "story" is redundant under "Plot." The other material I'm restoring simply as basic copyedits and tightening of language. Will move reference to Dark Troopers appearing elsewhere in EU to lead. --EEMIV (talk) 04:27, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Characters
Removing more than I did earlier: the generic badguy characters, e.g. stormtrooper and Imperial officer, don't need to be appear in a list; they can be covered sufficiently in a sentence or two. I'll retain the list for major characters or those known from the broader SW universe. --EEMIV (talk) 04:57, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Looking to improve the article? Each of these characters' voice actors needs to be identified. --EEMIV (talk) 05:06, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Locations
There is no context or significance for these locations; seems to gameguide-y. --EEMIV (talk) 05:06, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Trivia

 * George Lucas appeared on CNN's Future Watch show and demonstrated/promoted the game. Lucas and Daron Stinnett also promoted it in Disneyland when they travelled there for the opening of the Indiana Jones train.

Deleting as unsubstantiated. Can someone provide a date (even a month)? If so, incorporate into (eventually to be restored) distribution/reaction section. --EEMIV (talk) 04:17, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * 'The first level of Dark Forces was initially supposed to be based in an Imperial Star Destroyer; however the Dark Forces team realized the level would be too challenging for first-time players, and so most of the level design was recycled for a much later mission on board a Super Star Destroyer, the Executor.

Again, an unsourced claim. And so what? Lots of shifting and changing I'm sure happens in all game design. Of course, I don't know, and wouldn't claim it in the article, without a source. --EEMIV (talk) 04:17, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * '*Kyle Katarn returned as the protagonist in Star Wars Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II and Star Wars Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast. He appears as a supporting character in the expansion of Jedi Knight (Mysteries Of The Sith), Star Wars Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy and Star Wars: Empire at War.''

Will incorporate into the lead or a sequels section. --EEMIV (talk) 04:17, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
 * A secret cave in level 8 (Anteevy Robotics Facility) appears as an outline of Max the lagomorph from the LucasArts adventure game Sam & Max, when viewed on the in-game map.

So what? This is truly trivial and unencyclopedic. --EEMIV (talk) 04:17, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * *Star Wars: Dark Forces spawned a graphic novel series and an audio drama.

Had placed more prominently in lead, where it belongs, to establish some modicum of notability. --EEMIV (talk) 04:17, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * *In 2007, Family Guy made use of some Dark Forces music for their star wars parody.

So what? Use as background noise for a spoof is another form of inane minutiae. --EEMIV (talk) 04:17, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Editing and mods
Per WP:FICT, mods and whatnot are vanity fan fiction and not especially notable. Combined with the absence of citations, probably this should all be deleted. However, I think a modder being hired by LucasArts is noteworthy, the material that's left here kind of builds up to that.


 * Not long after the game was released, avid fans discovered how to access and modify the game’s data, in order to produce new levels and other mods. This was aided by the fact that most of Dark Forces’ game data was coded in text files and other straightforward formats. 

"Avid" fans and "straightforward" formats is non-npov.


 * DFUSE enabled editors to unpack the GOB files which stored all of the game data (levels, textures, sound effects and so on) and create new levels. 

From a paragraph left largely intact; only big cut was unnecessary explanation of "game data", especially since it's laid out pretty clearly shortly thereafter.


 * A popular level editor for Mac users, Dark Forge, was created by Brad Oliver.

Looks like a vanity plug.


 * Dark Forces remains one of the most intensely “modded” games in PC history. 

Bold claims required firm substantiation.


 * This is a consequence of the popularity of the Star Wars universe, combined with the relative simplicity of the game (compared to modern FPS games which are much more sophisticated and thus more difficult to edit). Yet despite its simplicity, the Dark Forces engine was capable of quite remarkable feats in the hands of imaginative level designers with time on their hands. Many of the fan-made levels surpass the original “official” levels in terms of complexity and sophistication.

This is entirely original research.


 * The Dark Forces community remained active long after the sequel, Jedi Knight, was released. Websites such as DF-21 continue to provide a portal for the "DF community".

Unsubstantiated claim coupled with linkspam.

As such, I am restoring my edited version of this section. --EEMIV (talk) 04:42, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Reception
The first paragraph is mostly unsubstantiated, with (attempts) at flowery language. It looks like an editor who spent a lot of time on this article got his/her kicks comparing DF to Doom.
 * While Dark Forces received quite favorable reviews, the game was perceived by many to be lacking in a few areas.

Passive-voice "perceived by many" is weasel wordy. This was a major, popular game -- where are the citations to these "many" to reviews?


 * Most criticized was the lack of any sort of multiplayer mode, in light of Doom's recent popularization of competitive first person gaming.

I retained the criticism of lack of multiplayer (even without substantiation), but removed unsupported "most".


 * Gamers had dreamed of competing with one another for years in a first-person Star Wars environment,

"Dreamed"? This is unnecessary floweriness.


 * An additional issue cited by critics was the game designers' choice to allow saving only at the completion of each (often long and tedious) mission, although there were mid-level checkpoints that the player could restart from as long as he had extra lives.

Rambling and wordy; trimmed.


 * This design decision in games has always been a controversial one, and this was no less so for Dark Forces.

Always? Says who? Where is the metric by which DF is no less/more criticized? Unnecessary; deleted.

I have condensed these claims into a single sentence. Paragraph 2:


 * Nonetheless, the game was successful. Dark Forces was the 11th best selling computer game of the period 1993 to 1999, with 952,000 copies. It was followed by novelizations and a sequel, Star Wars Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II. Jedi Knight spawned an entire series of games which includes the expansion, Star Wars Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith, Star Wars Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast, and most recently, Star Wars Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy. This series, with the exception of Jedi Academy, focuses on the continuing exploits of Kyle Katarn, which take place after the events of Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi. After the first Jedi Knight title, the name Dark Forces was dropped from the series.

I kept most of this -- the specific figure at least isn't weasely, and someone more into game articles I think can support it., which now reiterates some material from the lead (will look to ditch redundant links). I also actually added (gasp) a cited assertion about merchandising. --EEMIV (talk) 04:51, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Can we please archive and remove this ridiculously long section from the talk page? Some guy (talk) 10:54, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Sequels, ect
I added a cleanup tag to this section, as it looks to be written via a cellphone text message. I'll try and fix it up tomorrow when I have some time. dcole (talk) 03:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)