Talk:Startup Village, Yokneam

Input requested
I would like the help of a more experienced Wikipedia editor to bring this page up to B-Class. If you don't have time to make the improvements, it would help if an experienced editor were to see if the improvements that I made after the original version was approved and rated C-Class.


 * One comment is to reduce the excessive use of photos. I commented out many of the photos. Did this improve the article? Is the use of photos still excessive?


 * I tried to edit the introduction to be less like an advertisement. Is it better now? Does it still look like and advertisement?

Unclefeet (talk) 10:35, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I looked at the external links and did not know which ones are inappropriate. Can someone check and see which ones to remove?


 * This isn't anywhere close to B-Class. Wikipedia content should be based on reliable sources that are independent of the subject and discuss it in some detail, such as newspaper articles. I just checked a half-dozen of the most reliable-looking sources including Haaretz and the Jerusalem Post, and not a single one of them mentioned Startup Village. Sources that do not mention the article's topic are useless and should be removed outright. Corporate "about us" pages are anything but reliable and should never be used. The Megiddo Regional Council isn't quite an independent source on Council business. I'd say this is a POV fork of our main Yokneam article and should simply be redirected thereto. I'll do so. Huon (talk) 19:05, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Please reinstate
I don't think that this is a POV and I think that the page should be reinstated (remove redirect and return to previous version). The topic is significantly different. Because I started the page and am new to Wikipedia, I don't think that I should just click Undo from the History or similar. I would like someone else with more experience and less personal attachment to make that type of decision.

The topic of this page refers to the startup ecosystem, not the city of Yokneam. The uniqueness of the ecosystem is not the city of Yokneam, but rather that it is a major startup ecosystem in a village-like environment (as far as I know, most startup ecosystems are located in urban areas). Although much of the high-tech park is located within the municipal boundaries of Yokneam, the Mevo Carmel park is located outside and is a joint venture with many other small communities (Megiddo Regional Council, Daliyat al Carmel and Isifiya). The Technion University is an important component of the ecosystem, but is also not within Yokneam.

22:06, 28 April 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Unclefeet (talk • contribs)


 * Unclefeet also left notes at my talk page, but we should keep the discussion in one place, so I'll reply here. The main problem I had with the article was that the reliable sources by and large did not seem to discuss the topic of the article - in fact, as I pointed out above, they largely did not mention the Startup Village at all. If this "startup ecosystem in a village-like environment" is notable enough for an article of its own, that article should be based on reliable sources explicitly discussing the topic of the article.
 * Unclefeet also claims that the article was not on the same topic as our Yokneam article. The article happens to disagree, quote: There is an article about Yokneam from a different perspective. The other article is Yokneam . That's unambiguous: This article covered Yokneam from a different perspective than the other article on the same topic. Also, if this really was about some modern high-tech business and industry district, it went far off-topic. I somehow doubt high-tech is dug out of the ground by archaeologists, and I also doubt the availability of high-tech companies is a relevant factor archaeologists consider when deciding on their dig sites. So why, exactly, does a high-tech article discuss archaeology? How is a Yemenite Dance Company relevant to a "High-Tech Ecosystem"? Do we want to claim that there is a correlation, if not a causation, between high-tech and Yemenite dancers? I somehow don't think so.
 * So in summary, there were no reliable sources discussing the Startup Village, lots of content unrelated to a high-tech industry park, and as a topping lots of puffery. If a valid topic for an article is buried somewhere in this mess, this isn't the article. See WP:TNT. Huon (talk) 18:31, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I am fine with having the discussion on this page, I simply did not know where it should be held. I think your response takes everything out of context, but it is quite possible that I am too attached to my first major attempt at Wikipedia editing to be objective.

I still think the topic is very different and not POV on Yokneam. And I only wish you could been more constructive by using your experience to help me focus the topic properly through reorganization or renaming the topic.

My understanding of the "unambiguous quote" that you refer to is that there is a different article about the city of Yokneam that contains information that you won't find here in detail. That paragraph was added 9 hours by Nis613 who I assume was trying to improve the lead section of the article as requested by Wikipedia (one of 5 defects listed above the article). But I am only guessing at the the intent of Nis613.

You are correct that none of the references refer to the term Startup Village. But many of them do refer to the phenomenon of there being such a high concentration of R&D companies in the area (which is not an urban center). Perhaps I should have used a different title and your experience and emotional distance from the topic could have been helpful.

Your response above refers to the article being very far off topic. You might be right or it may simply be that I did not organize the topic well enough and I wish that you could have used your experience to improve that. I organized the topics into 7 headings (not counting "references", "see also" and "external links"). Two of those headings were summaries of the communities that are at the heart of the area (Yokneam and Megiddo Regional Council), each of which have their own Wikipedia pages that go into more detail. The archeological digs and Yemenite dancers were part of the summary of Megiddo Regional Council which is made up of small, diverse communities. I may have gone into to much detail in the summary or maybe someone like yourself could have made improvements that would have better focused the topic.

I am sure that there is a lot of information that the topic is missing and that I don't have the knowledge or experience to find and add. I thought that one of the reasons for having a collaborative framework like Wikipedia was to gather knowledge together from the general public. If I already had the answers to my questions or knew where to find them, I probably wouldn't have tried so hard to create the topic in the first place. I honestly don't believe that anyone will add relevant information to the Yokneam page that explains the relationship between the area as a whole and the high concentration of R&D companies.

For example: If a major incentive for startup entrepreneurs with children to live in an urban area is the large variety of educational alternatives for their children, then the variety of educational alternatives could help explain why this particular village-like area is able to attract so many startups. But that would be speculation and "original research" on my part.

I do know that the study of the "Anatomy of an Entrepreneur - Family Background and Motivation" put out by Kauffman Foundation (http://www.slideshare.net/chbrandt/anatomy-on-an-entrepreneur#) found that most entrepreneurs are married and have children. But that is not enough to conclude startup entrepreneurs setup shop where there are educational opportunities for their children. However I did think it relevant to include a topic about the "Other Schools in the Area" which would make it possible for someone capable of making the connection to know that there are more educational alternatives in the area than what you see by reading the pages about Yokneam and the small communities in the Megiddo Regional Council. Although I was able to find references to what is "common knowledge" in the area, I agree that it would be better to have more reliable sources. Unfortunately, as long as the page is hidden from the public, no one else will help find those sources.

Despite your low opinion of the topic as I created it, I would still appreciate it if you would take the time to try and reorganize or rewrite the topic in a way that would be useful to the Wikipedia community as a whole and would serve as a magnet for others who are more knowledgeable than myself to add what they know and have read from reliable sources. If there are other Wikipedia editors who can actually find this topic, then I would appreciate their help as well. Unclefeet (talk) 11:46, 30 April 2014 (UTC)


 * So the article name is your invention, not something based on reliable sources, and the same seems to hold for quite a bit of the content, such as the significance of the education system to the concentration of high-tech companies. We have a name for that: Original research (particularly original synthesis). It's not something appropriate for Wikipedia.
 * To me, of the article's seven sections (not counting lead, "see also" and so on), only two and a bits of another two seem relevant to the supposed topic of the article: The "Government assistance" section, the "Companies with a significant R&D presence" section, the first sentence or two of the "Yokneam Illit" section and the second half of the "history" section. The entire remainder seems off-topic: Protests against natural gas, playgrounds and schools, archaeologists, dancers and rottweilers. None of that seems relevant to the high-tech environment; if it is, no third-party source points out the importance. Speaking of sources, neither the "Companies" section nor the beginning of the "Yokneam Illit" section cited reliable third-party sources suppoorting the content. The "History" and "Government assistance" sections' content is relevant only to Yokneam and could just as well be merged into that article, if it's not contained already. It's not about "the wider area" at all. The same would, obviously, hold for the "Yokneam Illit" section if we had sources to support the relevant content. There is, literally, nothing at all here that is relevant to the proposed topic, supported by third-party coverage, and does not have a natural home in the Yokneam article.
 * But it's even worse. Parts of the article seemed to be flat-out wrong. Start with the very first sentence: "Yokneam's Startup Village Ecosystem has over 100 high-tech companies, making it the largest concentration of R&D companies in Israel outside of Tel-Aviv." I have no idea where the "largest concentration of R&D companies in Israel outside of Tel-Aviv" line is supposed to come from, but unless some exotic measurement custom-made to suit Yokneam is taken, I doubt it has more high-tech companies than either Haifa or Jerusalem. And that isn't even mentioning the 65% of high-tech companies in "Tel Aviv and the center", according to Haaretz, which isn't just Tel Aviv. So in short, this is a badly-sourced mess chock-full of original research, unduly promotional, probably factually incorrect, and what good content it has could just as well be merged into the proper place, the Yokneam article - maybe into an "economy" section. Huon (talk) 20:14, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

After seeing how many hours I've put into replying to you, I've come to the conclusion that I am too attached to this topic to be objective. It is my first major attempt at Wikipedia editing and I am probably neither the first nor last editor to become too attached to their "first creation". I do not agree with all that you have written, but I respect and thank you for taking the time to review the topic in depth.

I have decided to take a break from editing or attempting to improve this topic, but I do hope that you and other editors who are more detached and therefore objective will make improvements and bring it up to Wikipedia's standards. Even though I will avoid editing the topic myself, at least until I become more detached, I will probably follow it to see if changes are made and to learn from the process.

Huon, there is one item in your last response that I think would be interesting for you to follow up on. Your doubt that Yokneam "has more high-tech companies than either Haifa or Jerusalem" is the reason that I think this topic has merit. My personal experience canvassing high-tech centers in Israel while looking for work differs from your opinion. It would be very interesting to see the actual data on this and I don't know where to find it. I hope you or some other editor will look into this.

Again, thank you for time in reviewing the topic in depth and responding. Unclefeet (talk) 06:44, 1 May 2014 (UTC) Unclefeet (talk) 06:48, 1 May 2014 (UTC)