Talk:Starving for honesty climate hunger strike, Berlin, Germany

Origin of text
Just noting that this page, as first released, is a near direct translation of the Germany equivalent at de:Hungern bis ihr ehrlich seid. With best wishes. RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 08:12, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Some sources not currently used
For future reference perhaps. RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 16:49, 15 May 2024 (UTC)


 * collapse by Tin


 * Sona (female) joins strike on 11June

List of hunger strikers
List of hunger strikers and durations. The entire strike was calledoff on the afternoon of 13June 2024 (see separate topic on this matter here ). Dates shown are exclusive meaning they could underestimate by oneday. Timeofday information is otherwise needed for more accurate duration calculations.

Notes


 * 1) the dates in the Events column may be a day or so wrong as it is hard to gain consistent and accurate timestamps
 * 2) hunger striker entries ordered by date of pubic announcement
 * 3) day counts given in bold orange are final meaning the striker has finished their protest

RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 07:14, 17 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Pressenza Berlin summed up the protest this way (translated):
 * "Eight people have been on hunger strike since the beginning of March: Wolfgang Metzeler-Kick (92days), Richard Cluse (77days), Michael Winter (31days), Adrian Lack (38days), Tin (23days), Titus Feldmann (25days), Markus Müller (13days) and Soña (3days)."
 * Some of their day counts vary a little from mine. Iwill see if Ican obtain better information.  RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 10:06, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
 * My recent update based on two revised dates for Feldmann and Müller and more careful calculations aligns with the values quoted by Pressenza Berlin except that their calculations are inclusive and mine are exclusive. Iprefer this more cautious approach in the absence of timeofday information.  But not sure how to handle this on the main article.  Any thoughts?  RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 10:38, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Press release for press conference on 23 May 2024
Press release:


 * https://hungern-bis-ihr-ehrlich-seid.de/en/oeffentliche-pressekonferenz-am-23-mai-2024/ dated 20May 2024 for press conference on 23May 2024 10:00 +0200 (CEST)

Update: it appears that little has changed following the press conference:


 * https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7SDVkZKUt-/

RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 09:57, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Legal aspects
Groll (2024) quite possibly covers the legal aspects. The part that I can access translates thus:

"Climate activists in Berlin have been protesting with a hunger strike since March. Now one of them could even die. Doctors have abdicated responsibility. Are they allowed to do that? The man is completely emaciated. ..."

Best, RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 17:00, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Note on physicist Eicke Weber
Eicke Weber is a solid state physicist and key player in the scientific development of photovoltaics in Germany. Weber was director of the Fraunhofer Institute for Solar Energy Systems (ISE) for ten years. He spoke in support at a hunger strike press conference on 23May 2024 (video archived on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2sPlywjXLA). Best, RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 17:35, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Recently removed material
Please discuss your recently removed material here. For instance, the quiet visit of economics minister Robert Habeck is certainly significant. And I believe that passage should be retained. Your remark about "keeping it real. we are not the strike's website" is not especially focused or helpful in this context. TIA, RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 15:33, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I believe it is. How many pictures did I remove? A dozen? Two dozen? Images should support the text; articles should not be photo galleries. The article is way too much a collection of news items. Drmies (talk) 15:53, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I am going to argue that photo galleries are reasonable in this context and that none of the images were duplicates or irrelevant to the article. One of the problems with Wikipedia markup (as I understand it) is that individual images are difficult to reference from within the text.  Now if you believe that some images were unnecessary, why not discuss what would be a reasonable short list here?  That would be good process?
 * Now turning to the Robert Habeck material that was removed. The German federal economics minister visited the strikers when the German chancellor had declined to engage in any substantive way.  I believe that material is entirely relevant and significant and should be reinstated?  Or alternatively, your reasoning for its removal should be argued in detail.
 * I will concede the article should be compressed but these are current events (but not breaking news) and the benefit of hindsight is not yet present to provide a better account. I intend to do exactly that as things unfold.
 * Why then, I ask, do you not contribute to that process of distillation, rather than just roll back recent edits in what seems a random and arbitrary fashion. Did you look at the source material for that Habeck paragraph?  Did you evaluate it for substance and accuracy.  The one minute residency on the commit log suggests not.  RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 17:02, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Information regarding the reaction of Robert Habeck is certainly relevant as he is the Vice Chancellor of Germany. Thus, he is the deputy of the person addressed by the campaign (Olaf Scholz). Jesse Maierhof (talk) 16:22, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I would agree that 19 photos is far too many for this article. The photos fill the entire right side of the article and certainly look like a gallery. The purpose of images is to help the reader to understand the content of the article. This many images is unnecessary for that purpose and far out of line with typical articles of this type. CodeTalker (talk) 20:09, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * If editors think it's reasonable/helps the article, a gallery section like at History of Diving Museum can be used. General guidance at WP:GALLERY. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:22, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Title of this article
Should probably be just "Starving for honesty". Any objection? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:57, 2 June 2024 (UTC)


 * I do not have any objections, while noting that I provided the original naming. The German version just uses the straight name too with no additional information. RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 16:14, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * DW calls it "Starve until you are honest". What is the WP:COMMONNAME in English? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:16, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Now just two demands as of 3 June 2024
Please note that the hunger strikers revised their demands at press conference09 on 3June 2024. Demand 1 remains, demand 2 as below (with unofficial translation), and demands 3 and 4 have be struck. So from four to two demands now.


 * "Es gibt kein CO2-Restbudget mehr, dann es sind bereits jetzt hunderte Gigatonnen zu viel CO2 in der Luft." ["There is no longer a remaining budget because there are already hundreds of gigatonnes too much  in the air."]

For reference, see the archived livestream of that press conference on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QY0DKY3X-A

Best, RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 07:54, 4 June 2024 (UTC)


 * UPDATE: their website now lists these three demands:
 * 1. The continued existence of human civilization is extremely endangered by the climate catastrophe.
 * 2. There is no longer any remaining CO2 budget because there are already hundreds of gigatons [viz] too much CO2 in the air.
 * 3. We have to radically change course now, even if it is years late
 * RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 12:48, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Without being aware of this talk page section, I have made an edit on the revised demands already.--CRau080 (talk) 21:48, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Does the IPCC say climate change is an existential threat to civilization?
added a query to the main text with the commit message "Where does the IPCC say that climate change is an existential threat to human civilisation?". https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Starving_for_honesty_climate_hunger_strike%2C_Berlin%2C_Germany&diff=1228510652&oldid=1228507792.

I will go looking in the next day or so. In the interim, two comments. IPCC contributors certainly raise that prospect, see Carrington (2024). While noting that individual contributors do not constitute the IPCC. And I know Hans Joachim Schellnhuber agrees with that sentiment too. But again, Schellnhuber is not the IPCC. We need to search the AR6WGII report and the Summary for Policymakers (SPM) publication. At a last resort, I can ask Scientist Rebellion who are supporting this action. We need a reliable secondary source, of course. Others are welcome to explore this question too.



Best, RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 20:20, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Climate change is a long-term challenge, but the need for urgent action now is clear. The conclusion of the report's Summary for Policymakers summarizes this succinctly. 'The cumulative scientific evidence is unequivocal: climate change is a threat to human well-being and planetary health. Any further delay in concerted anticipatory global action on adaptation and mitigation will miss a brief and rapidly closing window of opportunity to secure a livable and sustainable future for all.' We couldn't agree more.
 * How about this from the one page Forward from the main report of WGII (pagevii) (emphasis added) (the "we" refers to the two authors who wrote the forward):


 * Best, RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 10:30, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * does that suffice as a source? RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 10:39, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Whilst interesting I don't think that quote is talking about Societal collapse Chidgk1 (talk) 14:40, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I searched some more and think the IPCC probably does not explicitly cover existential threat. Wikipedia offers an article on Climate change and civilizational collapse.  And other authors examine the topic.  I would be happy to see the remark about IPCC support removed.  RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 15:25, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Iasked a mathematician today who attends the German IPCC national meetings and they were unable to recall an IPCC reference to "existential threat". RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 13:37, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
 * removed Chidgk1 (talk) 16:12, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Strike ends on 13 June 2024
The strike has indeed ended. See https://www.instagram.com/p/C8Jt6-YOoVE/. Translation below (emphasis added).

The latest government statement following the flood of the century in Bavaria has made it clear that we cannot rely on Chancellor Scholz. Instead of speaking the truth about the climate crisis, Scholz prefers to talk about combating symptoms while knowingly threatening the continued existence of human civilisation. There is no residual budget!

Despite a week of reflection, Scholz has neither initiated a turnaround in climate protection nor sought dialogue. We have therefore decided to end the "Starving for honesty" campaign.

The hunger strike by Soňa, Titus Feldmann, Adrian Lack, and Marcus Müller has ended with immediate effect. Richard Cluse, Tin, Michael Winter, and Wolfgang Metzeler-Kick have been on refeeding [viz] for a short time. Adrian also ended his silent hunger strike after 37 days and spoke again during the press conference.

It became clear that the press is more interested in hospital visits than in content and the support of hundreds of scientists. Adrian Lack: "The media didn't report enough and mostly misrepresented the demands. With our de-escalation, media interest has greatly diminished. Even during Q&A sessions, there was never any interest in the facts." RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 08:54, 14 June 2024 (UTC)


 * There is quite a lot of copyediting to be done as a result of this announcement. Iprefer not to do this because a bit more diversity in editing would be useful.  RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 10:32, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The protest website says the camp itself will continue until 26June 2024 (so about ten days from now). RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 10:34, 17 June 2024 (UTC)