Talk:State College of Florida Collegiate School

Revert July 7 2019
I had to revert the last edit by John from Idegon The State College of Florida serves as the parent institution of the State College of Florida Collegiate School. However, the two institutions are separate physically and administratively. The collegiate school focuses on the education of students in grades 6 thru grade 10, while the college itself (parent institution) caters only to traditional college students. Spaceboy900 (talk) 10:00, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Right. Schools that don't grant diplomas are only rarely notable. This one is 6-10, and there are no secondary sources at all. There is nothing in the article indicating notability. The procedure for a typical public school would be to redirect it to the school district. In this school's case, that is the College. John from Idegon (talk) 10:18, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

The collegiate School does grant students a high school diploma, but only after the two year duel-enrollment period. Spaceboy900 (talk) 10:29, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * So provide reliable secondary sources that verify that. Most of this article is WP:OR. In case you haven't read up on Wikipedia policy, everything in an article must be paraphrased from reliable sources. The article says it is a 6-10 school. If I were to reduce this article to what is sourced, there wouldn't be much left. The article has to be fixed if it is to stay and what you've just stated has to be verifiable by secondary sources. John from Idegon (talk) 10:54, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * NCES says this is a 6-12 school. Article is untenable in its current state. I'll withdraw the Afd and move it to draft space so we can work on it. I'm done for tonight however. It will be at Draft:State College of Florida Collegiate School. Thanks for getting this all started with your review request. John from Idegon (talk) 11:03, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Editorial on the school's first graduating class
Found an editorial on the school's first graduating class: https://www.bradenton.com/opinion/editorials/article34714980.html WhisperToMe (talk) 06:33, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
 * We don't generally use editorials as sources, do we? John from Idegon (talk) 06:44, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
 * While I presumed no, I looked up Editorials and got redirected to an essay User:Basket of Puppies/Editorials... That's interesting... WhisperToMe (talk) 06:46, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Also Reliable_sources states: "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact." So editorial commentary can be used for the author's opinion WhisperToMe (talk) 06:50, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I think the proper term is "may". Until we understand the significance of what the editorial is about, I can see no reason that we need an opinion from a local paper about it.
 * That's why I sometimes put these on talk pages. I'm not sure whether it ultimately should/will be used, but there's a record of it so people know it exists (loss of internet URLs may sadly accelerate as time passes) WhisperToMe (talk) 07:04, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Cart before horse. A school article is going to have to be pretty complete before the opinion of the local press is going to have any significance at all. The article states (again, local source) that this school was some sort of first. You're versed in academic sources on education; perhaps you can find a better source? John from Idegon (talk) 07:30, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
 * You need to start with the cart first, as if you wait until you get the horse, the cart may be gone (as in the pages deleted from the news website, sometimes without any Wayback Machine copies, and delisted from Google). There are, of course, archival services like archive.is/Wayback Machine/Megalodon/webcitation.org, but often people won't remember the particular page unless they see the URL elsewhere, meaning on a Wikipedia talk page. I typically archive a potential page on two of the archival services, then list it on the talk page. When dealing with a "big" topic, say Barack Obama, there are often tons of pages available on the topic, so it's not as big of a deal, but for "smaller" topics the number of publicly available reliable sources may be below 10 or so.
 * Having said that, this editorial is clearly not the best source. I would prefer a more scholarly study which would discuss how a school like this eases the burden. It may take years for such to appear, and I would think it would be published out of a local university (other than the ones which support the school).
 * WhisperToMe (talk) 07:53, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

Infobox
First, it's the wrong one, but changing infobox university to infobox school is really simple. Almost all the parameters are the same. I'll do it next.

Second, what to do about the school's relation to the University? If it is a charter, which isn't entirely clear yet (I think NCES can clarify, and I'll be doing stats yet tonight), who is the chartering agency? That's a fact that should be in the body, too. I'd say in most any case, we should list the University in the "authority" parameter.

Last, the type is listed as Collegiate school, pipe-linked to high school. The high school article has nothing on collegiate school. My question is: Is collegiate school a term with a generally accepted meaning or is it simply branding? John from Idegon (talk) 07:30, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
 * The charter application for the Venice campus is publicly available. Based on page 3/248, the state college itself is the operator of the school, and the application is sent to the school district. The Florida Department of Education defines "collegiate school" here http://www.fldoe.org/core/fileparse.php/7724/urlt/0072358-fyicollegiatecharter2013-01.pdf as "innovative schools designed to provide academic and technical education for high school students interested in pursuing college-level study." In the document SCF Collegiate is listed as a "charter" as the State College of Florida chartered it, and the collegiate schools listed there are defined as ones that are not chartered. WhisperToMe (talk) 07:36, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Talk about political doublespeak. So it is a charter, and isn't a collegiate? You've also brought up another point. Is the Venice school going to be managed as a separate school or a satellite campus? It sure makes a difference on how we cover it. John from Idegon (talk) 07:47, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Based on the page it's a collegiate (dual high school-college enrollment) that is also a charter school.
 * page 1 states: "Collegiate High School (not chartered) — Any collegiate high school that does not fall under the charter school category." which essentially implies that this school is both.
 * As for how the Venice school is managed, that's a good question. I can see the website and see how it covers things.
 * WhisperToMe (talk) 07:56, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
 * The website https://scfcs.scf.edu/ mentions two campuses, with "SCFCS Venice" being a subdomain: https://scfcs.scf.edu/venice/ . I'd still treat it as a single school for nowWhisperToMe (talk) 17:26, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

Loss of dual enrollment
http://web.archive.org/web/20181006124117/https://www.bradenton.com/opinion/letters-to-the-editor/article219544595.html states that the dual enrollment program was canned. Letters to the editor can't be cited, but maybe there is an actual news article about this? WhisperToMe (talk) 06:42, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
 * , the reason I draftfied this is large parts of it simply made no sense. To me, this seems to be a key fact to nail down. It still contradicts itself in the lede. In one place, it says it's a middle school, in another it says its 6-12. Which is correct and why is the other there? John from Idegon (talk) 07:01, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I believe it means to say that it has the first middle school program on a university campus; the school has both middle and high school components, and the middle school forms a part of it. Some of the blame has to do with the wording on the school's own website: It says in the bottom of this page "It is the nation’s first college operated charter middle school where students have the opportunity to study on a college campus." but it clearly also has senior high school classes :( WhisperToMe (talk) 07:03, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I'd say we lose the bit on first college operated charter middle school, as the sources we have are the local paper directly mimicking the school website, and the school website itself. Too promotional. Not to mention it clouds the truth. John from Idegon (talk) 07:39, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

NCES
https://nces.ed.gov/ccd/schoolsearch/school_detail.asp?ID=120123007901

I won't be able to get to this or the infobox tonight. Interestingly, they say this is a regular school, not a charter, and that it is a part of the local school district. I've honestly never worked on a US public school article with so much conflicting information. John from Idegon (talk) 08:09, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
 * The charter status is indicated by a separate field: "Charter: Yes" WhisperToMe (talk) 09:05, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Since the status has been clarified (a charter school), do I need to do anything else before I move this back? WhisperToMe (talk) 23:13, 7 July 2019 (UTC)