Talk:State University of New York at Plattsburgh/Archive 1

Notables
I added a section on notable people associated with the college. So far it only consists of Tim Robbins. I'll do a little more research and try to find others. --waffle iron 02:55, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Frampton
From edit summary:


 * best citation is album liner notes. 2nd citation I have a photo of the concert poster (should I upload it?). Website reference is best I could find on internet.

I would cite the liner notes. It's a source, it could be cross-checked. --D-Rock (commune with D-Rock) 04:31, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure how to cite the liner notes in the article, except as a reference at the bottom of the article as a reference. Is that how it should be done?  Also, the liner notes don't mention which building on campus the concert was in.  The poster definitley says "Memorial Gym" but I have no verifiable proof that it was moved to the Field House other than verbally from alumni who attended the concert.


 * Throw the info in there and I'll take care of any formatting issues. --D-Rock (commune with D-Rock) 18:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Questinable NPOV
On 8/17/06 this edit added the following text:


 * Many students choose to attend Plattsburgh State due to it's beautiful scenery, one of the most aesthetic SUNY colleges with it's correlation to Lake Champlain and the nearby Adirondack Mountains. The campus's closeness to many exciting attractions also draws students. The campus is a half hour drive away from the borders of Canada, and another hour to get into the city of Montreal, known for it's vibrant nightlife and lowered drinking age of 18. A ferry to Burlington, Vermont, a popular shopping area with no tax, is also a short 15-minute drive from the campus. A large percentage of SUNY Plattsburgh students are avid skiers and snowboarders, accounting for it's easy access to Whiteface Mountain, the best skiing mountin in the Northeast, just an hour away from the campus. The school is also offers a wide range of expeditienary studies program, offering classes like Rockclimbing and Whitewater Kayaking as P.E. credits.

I went to SUNY Plattsburgh and like to see it in a good light but I must question the NPOV of this text. It's all opinions and it's all made to make SUNY Plattsburgh look great. It's like a school produced promotional brochure. I mean "the best skiing mountain in the Northeast" - How is that even close to NPOV? I think this should be removed. Feedback? Fife Club 16:20, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Porn Film
I'm removing this section. Here's a snapshot. First off it absolutely does not deserve it's own section on this article. That's ridiculous, especially with a Trivia section right next to it. Secondly, it may be anecdotally amusing but it clearly does not meet Wikipedia's standards for significant notability. Please read What_Wikipedia_is_not.

Many much larger student-oriented incidents and events would much better qualify for legitimate inclusion in to this article before this and ya don't see all of them jammed in. Actually, a few of these should be included if citations can be found.
 * The St. Patrick's Day Riot of (forgot the year in the 1980's) - this is the reason why the city of Plattsburgh forces PSU to have spring break coincide with St. Patrick's Day. (That would be a good one to include in Trivia if anybody can find the year and a citation)
 * Death of a student pledging a fraternity (National news that impacted greek societies both on this campus and others)
 * The Cardinal Points disobeying orders to cease printing of an article which named the student responsible for causing a fire in MacDonough Hall (around 1997?) (The Press Republican printed the paper for free that week, may qualify from a historical perspective)

Come on, this porn movie is just historically insignificant tabloid gossip that that will be forgotten and has no real impact on the subject of this article. It is true but still does not belong in Wikipedia. I'm deleting it now. Please post discussion here before reverting it back in and starting an edit war. --Fife Club 18:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Citation Style
Why the exhaustive conversion of all citations from Footnote3 style to Inline style? Personally I find Footnote3 far more neat and organized. Inline style makes it much more difficult to read the content in edit mode, and as you can see from the Skopp book it does not match with non-cited references. So why do all that work to undo something that worked well (without discussing the changes first)? Fife Club 23:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * See Footnotes ; Particularily: "An older system using ref and note templates is still common. Converting this older system to the new system can make the references in an article easier to maintain." & "In the old Footnote3 system, links and auto-numbered footnotes pulled from the same counter, which made it difficult to keep the endnotes consistent.  With the new Cite.php module, a different issue presents itself: a casual reader might not notice or understand the difference between an external link and an auto-numbered footnote and may be confused, thinking that the numbers are not in order." --Parker007 06:31, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * And I removed the hidden comment about dead note. Peace. --Parker007 06:37, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the reply as to your reasoning. Perhaps this should have been left on your user talk page but since we're already here...


 * Please note that Footnotes mentions advantages and disadvantages of each style, but nowhere does it actually promote cite.php as being better or say that Footnote3 should be converted to cite.php. In fact, Wikipedia policy specifically states "seek consensus first, before converting citation styles".  I don't feel like getting into an edit war over citation styles but, aside from it being against Wikipedia policy to convert styles without prior discussion, please keep the following in mind before converting other articles:  When you convert citation styles without consensus, just because you feel like it, you alienate the editors who are most dedicated to maintaining that particular subject.  Editors who have regularly contributed to certain articles are already familiar with the citation style previously used in the article.  When you make it harder for those who dedicated editors to keep contributing you risk losing them and their valuable future input. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fife Club (talk • contribs) 16:37, 30 January 2007 (UTC).


 * If you want to revert feel free, to revert to the old citation method. Peace. --Parker007 05:00, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Suny-logo-trans.png
Image:Suny-logo-trans.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 04:48, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Request for Comment: Alpha Phi Omega Trivia
Does trivia about Hillary Clinton being honored by a local college fraternity belong in the article for the fraternity which bestowed the honor (Alpha Phi Omega) or in the article for the college where the fraternity held their event (SUNY Plattsburgh)?
 * Statement of Issue

The trivia in question is as follows: "On May 4th, 2000 the Alpha Beta Chi Chapter of Alpha Phi Omega Service Fraternity inducted (Then Frist Lady) Ms. Hillary Rodham Clinton as Honarary Brother. The presentation was held in the Giltz Auditorium as part of her tour of New York State."


 * Original post

I'd like to propose to the group that following item be adopted under 'Trivia Section' on the page. "On May 4th, 2000 the Alpha Beta Chi Chapter of Alpha Phi Omega Service Fraternity inducted (Then Frist Lady) Ms. Hillary Rodham Clinton as Honarary Brother. The presentation was held in the Giltz Auditorium as part of her tour of New York State." I think this item should be noted: 1.) Since it is not typical to have the First Lady visit a college. 2.) She holds a membership in an group whose charter is held by SUNY Plattsburgh connecting her to more then just the Fraterntiy. 3.) This trivia fact is similar to those already there on the page. My other suggestion is the a new page be built to include all trivia for SUNY Plattsburgh instead. Thoughts... ?


 * Before I state my opposing opinion, let me state a few important points:
 * 1) I thank you for taking the route of getting other opinions involved. In that sense of fairness, I will fill out a Requests for comment to bring this question to the attention of other experienced Wikipedians and get their opinion.  As part of this RfC I'm changing the name of this section, and I've added the required neutral issue statement directly above this section's title.
 * 2) If should be noted that official Wikipedia policy is actually to avoid trivia sections in articles (Avoid trivia sections). We should definitely not create a separate article for SUNY Plattsburgh trivia, but in a worst case scenario, we may need to one day merge half the trivia into the article content and drop the other half.
 * --Fife Club 22:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

-- Thanks for your edits and comments. I have a greater respect for it not being added. If Wikipedia suggests avoiding trivia I too would like to see the others written into the main body of the article.


 * Comments


 * I oppose that this trivia belongs in this article on two main points:
 * 1) The subject of the trivia is an action taken by Alpha Phi Omega. SUNY Plattsburgh did not honor Clinton, only the fraternity did.
 * 2) This is too trivial in the first place. A sitting President is rare, but politicians visit colege campuses all the time and Clinton is probably an honorary member of hundreds of organizations, so it's not a big deal to anybody except that local fraternity chapter.

--Fife Club 22:29, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Also note that her honorary membership in Alpha Phi Omega is included on the Notable Alpha Phi Omega members with the chapter that she is an honorary brother of. Naraht 14:06, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Alpha Phi Omega Service Fraternity is co-ed, so I'm not sure calling Clinton a "brother" is appropriate. The sentence is written to be relevant to the Alpha Phi Omega Service Fraternity article, not to Clinton. Clinton's attendence at the presentation would be relevant to her biography, but Good article criteria 3(b) suggests articles stay focused on the topic without going into unnecessary details. It is not clear as to why such detail is necessary in the Clinton article. If she pledged the fraternity and spend three to four years at college contributing to the fraternity, it might be necessary detail. Calling it trivia doesn't help. If you delete the material, cite "unnecessary detail per Good article criteria 3(b)". That way, a person wanting to restore the material in the article will understand that they need to show on the talk page why such detail is necessary for the article or how it stays focused on the topic. --  Jreferee  (Talk) 15:20, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Couple of points. Firstly, Yes, Alpha Phi Omega is co-ed, but in Alpha Phi Omega in the United States, the same term is used for both men and women. (In the Republic of the Philippines, men are brothers and women are sisters) However according to the Alpha Phi Omega National Bylaws, the term brother is limited to initiated members of the fraternity, which honorary brothers are not. So, Hillary Rodham Clinton is not a Brother, but then neither is John F. Kennedy who is an honorary member of Eta Phi chapter at American University. (Note that while not official, it is still common for them to be referred to honorary brothers anyway) Secondly, it seems to me that the places where this should be mentioned are a) HRC's page under Awards and Honors, b) The Notable Alpha Phi Omega members page, and c) a wikipedia page for Alpha Beta Chi (the designation for the chapter at Plattsburgh)  chapter of Alpha Phi Omega should it ever exist. I can only see it being added if a list of notable events occuring at Glitz Auditorium is added to the article. Thirdly, HRC's husband Bill, is a Brother of Alpha Phi Omega having pledged while an undergraduate at Georgetown University.(Note, I'm on the National Media & Tech Cmte of Alpha Phi Omega, so I'm a little more up to date than most. :)Naraht 17:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Standards for School Articles, and Alumni Lists in particular
The WikiProject box recently added to the top of this talk page is a great reference! For acceptable guidelines on treating schools, please read WikiProject Schools. For guidelines on how to treat notable alumni in particular, please read WikiProject Schools.

I'm quoting/paraphrasing a few of the most important parts from that page below:
 * All alumni information must be referenced. Individual alumni need a citation a) to verify that they did indeed attend the school and b) to verify the statement of their notability in their short one or two line description. If an alumnus has their own article, then it is not necessary for their notability to be referenced, as long as it is done on their actual page.
 * After a description, state when they graduated or what years they attended. (Personally that sounds to me like a suggestion rather than a rule.)
 * People on the list should be categorized according to the field that made them famous: e.g. Politics, Medicine. Alphabetically is permitted but discouraged.

As a group, we should work towards eventually cleaning up the current alumni list to be in line with Wikipedia guidelines. If you need help with citation templates, see WP:Citation templates. Alumni currently listed who can not be positively referenced as required will eventually be removed.

Structure of Article
According to WikiProject Schools, the following is a suggested guideline for structuring an article on a school. (Click the link above for more details)

(this list has been updated as work has been done. More work can still be done to improve the article but the general structure described below has since been accomplished)


 * Infobox GOOD
 * Introduction/lead GOOD
 * History GOOD
 * Campus/school site GOOD
 *  Curriculum  Academics GOOD
 *  Extracurricular activities  Student Activities GOOD
 * Notable alumni GOOD
 * Notable teachers/faculty GOOD, but most likely could be expanded.
 * References GOOD
 * External links GOOD

In the end, all content in the "More Information" section should be moved to more appropriate and organized sections, and "More Information" should be removed once it's empty. --Fife Club (talk) 17:31, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Curriculum
All Curriculum is not notable enough to be in this article. Everything is up for discussion but I'd like to start a list of Curriculum that is worth mentioning. Please add to the list below and briefly explain why it is significant. --Fife Club (talk) 17:31, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Education - Plattsburgh was founded as a teacher's college and it's still the largest major.
 * Canadian Studies - an obviously unique Curriculum.
 * Center for Communication and Journalism - only one in the SUNY system.
 * Expeditionary Studies (ADX) - Don't know much about it but it sounds pretty unique to me. May be grouped in with Environmental Studies?

Notable alumni and former students
It seems unlikely that a nearly 120-year old institution has only 6 notable alumni, all of fairly recent vintage. Surely there are more? -- Mwanner | Talk 14:31, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I was thinking the exact same thing which is why I went searching for more a few days ago. I figured somebody must have reached the NHL from all those good hockey teams but surprisingly found that no Plattsburgh Cardinals ever played in the NHL (let alone a significant career to truely qualify as notable).  That's how I stumbled upon Jacques Lemaire (before my time), whom I wouldn't have even listed if not for the fact that he is in the Hall of Fame.  Then I searched blindly for others which is how I accidentally stumbled upon Eliza Kellas (who probably deserves her own article).  Long story short, I agree that there must be more notable alumni or staff in that huge empty void between 1901 and the 1980's.  (By the way, I have one more broadcaster yet to add too but he's from the 80's as well)  It's my hunch that the recent alumni are easier to find only due to the recency of the internet while old forgotten people are simply harder to research since their information may not be anywhere online. Tell you what I'll do.  I'm going to contact the Special Collections at the school and ask them for as possible leads.  If I find any good ones I'll add them.  --Fife Club (talk) 16:39, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * If you're there at the school, you might also try the Admissions office or Public Relations-- they often like to compile lists of impressive grads. Nice work on the others. -- Mwanner | Talk 17:58, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Rick Strack spent some time with the NY Rangers at the end of the 1980-81 season. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.10.218.185 (talk) 17:28, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

WP:UNI Assessment
This article looks very well written compared to some of the other articles I've seen. Most of the article conform to the current WP:UNI Article Guidelines. However, there are a few things that should be considered:
 * "Organization" section is missing: for a university being a part of such as large system such as SUNY, I'd think the organization section is literally where your article should shine. Please refer to article guidelines.
 * "Campus" section links: should not have external links embedded. Please just have one link from the university that displays all of the halls that are mentioned and place it in the "External Links" section.
 * "Academics" section should be renamed to "Academics and Demographics: as per above article guidelines. Also should include some sort of detailed student population breakdown.
 * Other issues with the "Academics" section:
 * The Academics section should have much more than one paragraph about its academics for a university's whose been around for 150 years.
 * Notable and unique academic programs section is formatted very strangely. External links are often treated as references, but you have Wikipedia redirects as references while keeping external links on headers.  Why?  Perhaps you can place internal links on the related subjects for the Wikipedia articles and use the external links as references instead.
 * TRIVIA!??!?!?! Trivia is generally regarded as a strongly discouraged act when placing into articles. However, I do see special notability in most of the bullets, but the first one (Often mistaken for Hawkins Hall, the structure on the left side of the current SUNY Plattsburgh seal is the central tower of the original Normal Hall (1889-1929).) is definitely not notable.
 * References: Why is your book at the very end of the list have a reference embedded? A reference for a reference?  Perhaps you can place the pictorial history book as a new section called "Further Reading".

I hope this review was thorough enough. Please let me know if you have any further questions regarding my assessment. I'm sure once you have done these few things, and then tweak a couple other minor issues with the article, it may be reassessed to B-class. It's really close. :-) Good work to everyone who has contributed!   - Jameson L. Tai   talk  ♦  contribs   02:18, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you for assessing this article as part of the Universities WikiProject. Great advice.  We'll go through the recommendations and try to make improvements where possible.  Many fixes should be easy, like removing inline external links from the body of the article.  I know we can get demographic information too, but expanding "Academics" will be a bit more difficult (where's that line where you become too non-selective and include too much info).  Thanks again for the help.  --Fife Club (talk) 20:36, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Oswego Tennis Balls
I just temporarily removed the following text from the article, written by Hockeyyankees. "Plattsburgh has now changed the rules on the home game for Oswego. Instead of having tennis balls thrown after the cardinals first goal scored, they are now having it as a red/white game where everyone should wear those colors. NO tennis balls are thrown." link to good reference

This is excellent information that should definitely be in the article, but the reason why I temporarily removed it is because there was nothing yet written in the article about the Oswego tennis ball tradition, and hence the statement made no sense by itself. I suggest a few well-written sentences be added about the tradition first (preferably with citations and history if possible), then mention how the tradition was ended on Friday, January 25, 2008. (I'll write it eventually if nobody else does) --Fife Club (talk) 15:22, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay. I put it back in.  Looks odd with more written about tennis balls being thrown than everything else about college's athletics programs, but hopefully more quality sports content will be added later to balance it out. --Fife Club (talk) 22:35, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Addtional person for Faculty/Staff
Respectively this is huge achievement. Cheryl Hogle, Associate Dean of Student Emeritus, First Female President of Omicron Delta Kappa Leadership Honor Society -- http://odk.org/about/history —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.176.139.38 (talk) 17:09, 9 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Added Cheryl Hogle as a notable faculty (and alumnus), with ample source citations. Thanks for the tip.   --Fife Club (talk) 13:59, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Wrong hall
The Frampton concert, wasn't it held in Hawkins Hall, which has a beautiful old theater (sunday night movies!). Article states Memorial Hall, which was the gym.68.38.228.227 (talk) 02:31, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Removal of Trivia section
Trivia in Wikipedia articles is highly discouraged - but not forbidden. The trivia section was recently removed entirely without any prior discussion. Yes, the trivia section should be removed from this article but the proper process is to incorporate those facts into the main body of the article, not to just blanket erase everything without editing or prior notice. If you want to work those facts into various spots within the article (historic events?), by all means be my guest to help improve the article, but please do not blanket erase all those valid facts again. --Fife Club (talk) 03:08, 9 May 2008 (UTC)