Talk:State country

Name
I am not sure if the "State Country" name is the best. I couldn't find anything relevant in books or articles I skimmed, so I used the name as suggested by WikiProject Silesia.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:41, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

From my talk page, to keep all conversation in one place:

Any idea if this is the best English name for this subject? Feel free to reply at article's talk for more exposure. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:42, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I am inclined to say " Lordship", but I do not know of an accurate way of translated the word or idea of Standes-. I don't think "state country" is a construction which has ever been used in English. The idea in English is that a country is a type of state as it is and since the idea of state and country overlap, combining them as a term in English doesn't make so much sense. "Free state" might be an idea, but I would look for a term which is closer to one used for immediate states, rather than something that is mediatized. This article Standesherr (Deutscher Bund) links back to mediatization. Autonomous lordship maybe? If the English term cannot be determined, I would use either the German or the Polish form, which ever appears more in English literature. Charles 20:59, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I believe German would be more correct than Polish, if we decide to use one of the native names.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 21:30, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Is it possible to determine if (Freie) Standesherrschaft ever stood on its own as a noun or as a territorial entity name or if it was always a component or styling of a name? If so, it may be appropriate to redirect this article to another article or section (if an appropriate one can be determined) on immediacy vs mediacy or autonomy vs nonautonomy. If a similar idea of the type of government exists, perhaps this can be added as an article section. Without context, a standalone article requiring a title which cannot be determined is a bit problematic. Charles 21:36, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Below I am pasting an email from a historian, whom I asked about the correct title.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 04:17, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The truth is that the English language really has no equivalent to Freiherr (the title of the ruler) or Freiherrschaft (the title of the political entity), because neither or them existed in the English-speaking world. The loose translations sometimes given (baron, barony) are inaccurate, in that they do not convey the concept of independent jurisdiction.  Medieval English barons were juridically much more subject to the kings than these (except for the few exceptions such as the liberty of the bishops of Durham and a few other historical exotica).
 * The concept wasn't limited to Silesia. It existed throughout the Holy Roman Empire and within the hereditary domains of the Habsburgs, such as Bohemia after 1621.
 * It is normally preferable to keep the German term, italicized, and give a sentence or so of explanation.

This Scholar Search comes up blank (there are lots of phrases like "state/country" or "Department of State Country report" to confuse things). If I had to translate it, I think I'd use Lordship of Estate (as in third estate) but that's probably a nonce word too; so Standesbeherrschaft may be best. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:22, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * De wiki article is at Freie Standesherrschaft... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 22:27, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Let me do some research on what is actually meant here; it may be best to translate Frei as "Free"; if the German article is correct, omitting Freie is idiomatic. Btw, what is the literal meaning, and case, of stanowe? I presume państwo = "lordship".Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:36, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * de:Standesherrshaft says this is a Bohemian institution, if I read correctly; certainly nothing in Silesia was mediatized in the Napoleonic Wars, unlike de:Standesherr (Deutscher Bund). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:42, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Honestly I don't know why you guys are bringing those other articles. I am all for translating them, whatever they are about, but the interwiki for this one is de:Freie Standesherrschaft.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 07:46, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Because we're confused, or at least I am. de:Freie Standesherrschaft leaves off the adjective quite often in their actual text; if they are a reliable source, their two articles deal with different instances of the same institution, which is widespread. The Professor's e-mail above says this too. But let me get back to you when I have some facts. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:20, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Name, redux
The name of this article is an issue that still needs to be addressed. The current title, though it might be an accurate translation, is very confusing to an English audience. The terms "state" and "country" have overlapping meanings and their use together is non-idiomatic. In addition, the term does not appear in sources, at least not those readily available on the internet. Terms that occasionally pop up are "barony" (which, as noted above has different connotations) and the subtypes of status maior and status minor. In this instance, maybe an untranslated title is more appropriate per WP:USEENGLISH (strangely enough). Relevant passages of the guideline are: 1) "If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader." (my emphasis) In this case there is a loss of accuracy and understanding with a translated name.  2) "If there are too few reliable English-language sources to constitute an established usage, follow the conventions of the language appropriate to the subject."  —  AjaxSmack   16:03, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Perhaps using the original German name would be best. I'd not oppose such a move. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 17:14, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe that's it. I found one dictionary online (though over 200 years old) that uses "Sovereignty, supreme power, also the Dominions of a sovereign Prince" for freye Standesherrschaft   and "a barony" for die Standesherrschaft   but these don't seem too productive.  It would be nice to have a more nuanced translation of the Polish and Czech versions if possible, too.  —  AjaxSmack   19:27, 15 July 2012 (UTC)