Talk:State highways in California/Archive 2

''This page is an archive of discussions. Please do not modify it. If you wish to discuss these matters then please make a new section on the main talk page.''

Don't move this page please
Please don't move this page... California State Route is even more so a proper noun than County Route is! California State Route 22, etc. "state route" by itself is uncapitalized but California State Route is capitalized! At least discuss the move before you start just barging in! --Rschen7754 17:40, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
 * Also shouldn't the people who work on the WP noted above be deciding this

Requested article move to List of California State Routes
California State Route is a proper noun. Also per examples below.Gateman1997 22:31, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Discussion
Strongly AGREE. It has been requested that this article be moved back to List of California State Routes from list of California state routes on the basis that California State Route is a proper noun and that capitalization in article titles is to be on more then the first letter based on actual Wikipedia usage, ex: Main Page, Manual of Style, List of Arizona State Routes, and this site's own title Wikipedia The Free Encyclopedia. Not to mention the "Chicago Manual of Style" and acedamia. English Manual of Style at Univ. of Colorado. Please note where it says, Article titles are to be capitalized.Gateman1997 18:12, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Disagree, with citation to authority. "California state routes" is not a proper noun any more than "Portland streets" or "local highways." Squib 22:49, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Wholeheartedly AGREE - "State Route" is a proper noun as defined as a type of road or proper name of a series of state owned highways. State route used as a general discription of a road in a state should be lower case.  Therefore List of California State Routes is correct, however if within another article a road is given the title of a state route, without naming the specific route name/number it should be lower case.  TEG 21:37, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * "California State Route" Designates a specific type or road/route in existance in California, therefore a proper noun, and thus should be capitalized, as it is in every other situation. Some states have state routes and state highways, others have a single name for all routes in the state owned by the state, regardless, the title given to a peticular road in California (i.e. SR-78) is "California State Route XX", therefore a listing of state routes should be "List of California State Routes". TEG 07:08, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
 * No one has supported the bare assertion that California State Routes, used generically, is a proper noun. Just to add some authority here, the following is from the US National Park Service’s Editing Reference Manual (January 2005):
 * "CMS 8.60 — Thoroughfares and the like. The names of streets, avenues, squares, parks, and so forth
 * are capitalized. The generic form is lowercased when used alone. In the plural, street, avenue, and such
 * are usually lowercased. ...
 * Interstate 80, I-80, an interstate highway
 * Jackson Park, the park
 * London Bridge, the bridge
 * 'U.S. Route 66; Routes 1 and 2; a state route'".
 * A state route is just a category of highway, which isn't a proper noun either. The issue should be whether there's a good reason to deviate from the Naming_conventions, because that's what the initial-caps version does. Squib 01:47, 9 August 2005 (UTC) California state routes is also in the common-noun company of California state senators, California state attorneys general, and California state parks. Squib

--15:30, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * There are 3 problems with this:
 * 1. A federal site gave this information... not Caltrans (the state DOT).
 * 2. This is a PARKS AND RECREATION federal site, not a highway site... the Parks and Recreation department is not in charge of highways and does not know much about them.
 * 3. This excerpt never mentions the classification of California State Route.
 * 1. Caltrans doesn't get to decide what the definition of a proper noun is. (And I haven't seen anything that says they've tried anyway.)
 * 2. The Editing Reference Manual's authority is as a professionally edited style manual, not as an edict of the federal government. Its government origin simply explains why it happens to specifically mention state route as an example. Find another style manual that does if you can. It would certainly be relevant.
 * 3. Why would it? (And how does state route magically become a proper noun in the phrase "California State Routes" when it clearly wouldn't be in "state routes in California," "California's state routes," or "a California state route"?)
 * 4. FWIW, the following is from the California Style Manual (4th ed. 2000), published by the California Supreme Court. (Yeah, the Court don't build highways, so what do they know? — They write edited prose for a living.):
 * "Sec. 4:8 Proper names, derivative words, numbered items, and labeled items
 * Capitalize otherwise common nouns and adjectives (and their plural forms) when part of a proper name. ...
 * San Bernardino Freeway
 * the freeway
 * State Route 99 or Route 99
 * U.S. Highway 101
 * the highway"
 * In other words, state route is an "otherwise common noun" only capitalized "when part of a proper name" or it wouldn't be on the list.   Squib

--Rschen775417:41, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * Caltrans does not define a proper noun, but Caltrans can classify a noun as proper when it is in charge of maintaining the stuff that the noun represents.
 * You still never mention the existence of "California state route" in a style manual.
 * "A California State Route" is capitalized, and in that phrase "a" is the only adjective, modifying the entire phrase/proper noun "California State Route". "state route" is not capitalized, that I agree with. But "California State Route" is a proper noun since it defines a specific highway type / designation.
 * Many prominent road sites such as aaroads.com use "California State Route" even when not mentioning a specific route- here is the specific example: look for link "California State Route Log"
 * Govtrack.us also uses "California State Route 99"
 * Note the google search results on the county discussion page.
 * Google results: (Google is not case sensitive but I took a look at the boldfaced text for some hits just to make sure)
 * "California state route"- the 200 or so hits I saw all used "California State Route" except for Wikipedia and 2 other sites; and 5-6 site's "California state Route". I got bored after reading the 23rd results page; there were 7,000 hits.
 * "California state routes"- (this will have more results of "California state routes" without a number):9 hits/80 used "California state routes".
 * 1. The word "a" is no more an adjective than "California state routes" is a proper noun. 2. "Types" of things are, by definition, not proper nouns. 3. The internets do not qualify as edited prose. Squib
 * "A" is an adjective... the words a, an, and the are known as articles. According to Wikitionary, an article "specifies or limits the following noun." This falls into the definiton of an adjective, which is "a word that modifies or describes a noun or pronoun, such as big or heavy." All of my grammar books (and I am still in high school) state that articles are adjectives.
 * Actually the definition for determiner summarizes it up: "a type of adjective which begins a noun phrase and includes the articles, demonstratives, and words such as some and all"
 * Now back to the subject... types of things can be proper nouns. A type is "A grouping based on shared characteristics; a class." I'll classify dogs for a second: English Springer Spaniel, Afghan Hound, Border Collie... these are all types of dogs yet all of these words are capitalized.
 * California State Routes is a proper noun... What is it a specific type of? Highway. Or you could say it is a specific type of state route.
 * The internet is not an example of edited prose... but a Wikipedia talk page isn't, either. Or should I say "is not?" But the point of the google search is to get the general consensus of whether California State Route is capitalized or not.
 * By the way state routes in California is not capitalized because in California is a prepositional phrase that modifies a common noun. State routes. Which state routes? California State Routes.

--Rschen775419:56, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Though "a" is not the "only adjective" in the phrase — California and state modify route. And the use of the indefinite article means that "a California state route" is a generic, common-noun reference. California state routes is merely its plural. You’re off base as well with capitalizing dog breeds. English and Afghan, of course, are proper nouns in their own right (like California), and some breeds are registered and used like brand names, but dog breeds are not otherwise capitalized as a general rule. Your analogy therefore supports the case for "California state routes." I think it's also somewhat of an evasion. Yes, some types of things can be proper nouns as an incident of also being, e.g., a brand name or derived from a place name, but not because of the bare fact in and of itself, as you suggested, that they are specific types of things. Again, someone supporting the name change should cite some actual authority for the proposition that California state routes is a proper noun rather than simply asserting and re-asserting it. Squib

I'll start my text over here since the indent is way too big. Anyway... a English Springer Spaniel does work too. The big point with the dog breeds thing is that English Springer Spaniel has all the words capitalized in it... in Wikipedia... if you don;t agree with their capitalization philosophy then you can go over to their talk pages and argue there. The whole point is that Wikipedia chooses to capitalize these dog breeds! So why not California State Route? About definite/ indefinite articles... the California State Route works as well if you don't like a. But the example here is List of California State Routes and there are no articles that are in here. As for examples of California State Route(s)...
 * Over 75% of Google hits... over 5,000 pages online that is. 5,000 people can't be wrong.
 * Caltrans itself, who with the California State Legislature created the California State Route. Caltrans has the authority to adjust the capitalization of California State Route... just like Microsoft can adjust the capitalization of Windows XP. The Wikipedia article doesn't call it Windows Xp. Or then there's the iPod. Apple created the iPod and created the unique way it is capitalized. Both Windows XP and iPod are proper nouns because Microsoft and Apple decided to make them that way. California State Route could be considered a product.
 * AARoads, probably the most known site regarding roads.
 * Wikipedia for the last few years. Calfornia State Route(s)' have existed peacefully (except for the highways problem, but only those who actually worked on the WP would know about that) for the last few years. Why is it being brought up now?

Also note that there are no votes for the move on this page that come from people working on the WP. In other words everyone who works on the Ca hwys wp (who bothered to vote) voted for the move to California State Routes. Noone who disapproves of the move actually works on the WP. Why can those who don;'t work on the WP tell us how to run the WP? Continuing on.,.. List of Arizona State Routes and List of Interstate Highways and List of California County Routes all exist and were created by different people. I didn't create any of these pages and Gateman1997 only created one. Therefore it can be stated that the consensus of those who work on the CA/WA/AZ highways pages is to capitalize "California State Route".--Rschen775423:10, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

Yet also this page should be returned to its original name because it was moved to "List of California state routes" without discussion or consensus or any of that... and the user who did the move knew that it would be controversial... List of California county routes was moved by the same user a few hours before this one was and a discussion was begun right away. (-Rschen7754)
 * You seem to be advocating a kind of vanity capitalization. Caltrans likes to capitalize. Highway enthusiasts like to capitalize. Hey, more power to you. Lots of organizations capitalize pet projects and concepts. I'm just saying that doesn't make it a proper noun, which has an existing definition in the English language. If the actual naming convention on Wikipedia is different in practice than it is in the Naming_conventions, then somebody ought to edit the guidelines. Or a lot of somebodies in the fullness of time will continue to un-capitalize the article names. In the meantime, it would be helpful to cite some authority on the English language, which Caltrans is not. (Or mob rule is cool too.)


 * For what it's worth, I don't think that generic references to State Routes necessarily should be lowercased within the articles themselves, as long as it doesn't randomly vary within the same page. I haven't seen any official policy against taking a little stylistic license within aritcles. Consistency is the key thing, and I suspect that's what the naming convention for titles is trying to achieve. Good luck with the project. Squib
 * I found a brochure put out by the US Forest Service capitalizing the generic use of State Highways. The sentence said something like "You need to follow the same rules on Forest Roads as you do on State Highways." --Rschen7754 18:26, August 12, 2005 (UTC)


 * AGREE!!!!!!!! Here is the 1-2-3:
 * The move to list of California state routes was made without the consensus of those who ACTUALLY WORK ON HIGHWAYS ARTICLES. The people working on the WP that this is part of did not approve this move. Only people who are not listed under the Participants section of the WP page want this move to occur... interesting. I have made 427 article space edits, and I believe that there were 5 that were not highway-related. I also have started 2 WPs related to highways and am part of 2 more. I would do more work on Wikipedia if I wasn't still in high school... but I'm getting off topic. Shouldn't those who have a certain expertise in an area be the ones working on that area in Wikipedia? Isn't that the point? I don't mean to offend anyone.
 * Naming_conventions states that "Do not capitalize second and subsequent words unless the title is a proper noun (such as a name) or is otherwise almost always capitalized (for example: John Wayne, but Computer game)."
 * In this case "California State Route" is a proper noun... "state route" should be uncapitalized" but "California State Route" should be capitalized... just as "country" is uncapitalized but "United States of America" is capitalized. Even if you do not consider "California State Route" a proper noun, it is still often capitalized... the acronym CASR stands for "California State Route".

--Rschen7754 23:13, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
 * This page has happily resided at List of California State Routes for a long time... since February 7, 2004 to be exact. Why does it need to be moved? Can you just create a List of California state routes redirect?


 * Strongly disagree. as per User:Squib. The phrase "state route" is just like freeway, boulevard, avenue, street, etc. None of them are proper nouns. Blank Verse  ∅  03:58, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Just thought I'd point out, our argument isn't that "state route" should be capitalized, it's that "California State Route" should be as it's a specific state route system. Just as "United States Interstate" would be capitalized.Gateman1997 00:02, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
 * There's the phrase I was looking for! Well I'm just gonna move the page right now though

Decision
Well if there are no immediate objections... since there appears to only be one vote to keep the page where it is I will move the page back to List of California State Routes on Monday PDT. It has been 5 days and it will have been over a week by then. --Rschen7754
 * Page moved. --Rschen7754 17:03, August 15, 2005 (UTC) 17:03, August 15, 2005 (UTC)
 * "Heads I win. Tails you lose." The "consensus" for caps here was a landslide 3 to 2 in favor of caps, so you reverted to caps. The "lack of consensus" for caps at Cal. County Routes was "only" 4 to 3 against caps, so keep the caps. Pretty lame. Squib 18:46, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind that this page got moved to List of California state routes WITHOUT CONSENSUS by user Radiojon. How lame is that?--Rschen7754
 * Agreed. 3 to 1 is also a consensus regardless of how few voted, however 4 to 3 is not. Sorry if you don't like the outcome but that's the way it goes. Plus as we demonstrated, it is a proper noun, just as United States Interstate and New Zealand State Highway network is.Gateman1997 19:43, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

What a waste of time
What a tremendous amount of wasted time and effort has been expended on this Talk page, at Talk:List of California County Routes, on various User Talk pages, plus WikiProject pages, etc., all in the support of ignorance. You clearly don't know what a proper noun is, so here is one clear definition:


 * PROPER NOUN: capitalized name: the name of a specific person or thing, normally beginning with a capital letter and not used with the indefinite article or a modifier, e.g. "York," "Sally," or "Henderson" [my emphasis]

Note that that the definition says "specific person or thing". The definition does not say specific type of person or thing.

California is a proper noun because it refers to s specific state. Orange County Route S18 and California State Route 55 are both proper nouns because they refer to a specific county route and a specific state route. Note, however, that I did NOT capitalize county route or state route at the end of that sentence, because in those cases they are not referring to any specific road, but are just referring to a type of road.

Also note in the definition the mention of the indefinite article (a or an). So I would write, for example: "I drove Pacific Coast Highway up the coast to Big Sur, which I thought was an interstate highway just like U.S. 101, but someone told me that it was just a California state route." Both "California state route" and "interstate highway" are not proper nouns. [Both Wikipedia links, unfortunately, are redirects to the capitalized versions and should be renamed.]

Because you are so dead set on violating a very clear rule in the Wikipedia's Manual of Style, you have brought up all sort of information that has absolutely no relevance to the issue.
 * Book titles like the "Chicago Manual of Style" are irrelevant because the Wikipedia does not titled their articles in the same way that books are titled
 * what other websites do, like aaroads.com, does not matter because they don't necessarily use the same editing style as the Wikipedia.
 * a Google search is irrelevant for the same reason.
 * even what Caltrans and the Forest Service says on their websites is irrelevant for the same reason.
 * The way that different lists are titled or mis-titled on the Wikipedia really shouldn't matter because a significant minority of them do not follow the Wikipedia MOS and should be retitled.
 * The fact that the article has been using a title that does not follow the Wikipedia MOS for a very long time does not matter either&mdash;articles get renamed all the time to match the MOS.

Although filing an Request for comments would bring more people into this discussion (and I believe would result in changing the consensus for this title of this article back to the lower case version), I will not fight the reverting of title of this article. On the other hand, after doing some investigating, I have seen that a very large number of lists on the Wikipedia do not follow the "proper noun" rule that is very clearly stated at Naming_conventions. What I will probably do instead is propose a more general "List title standardization" effort, that, if successful, would result in the renaming of a large number of Lists that do not currently follow the Wikipedia Manual of Style.

One more thing: Now that you've renamed this page, you are supposed to go through and clean up all the double-redirects. Blank Verse  ∅ 03:14, 16 August 2005 (UTC) Uh, guys, the capitalization is wrong. We need to find some way to move it back to the lowercase version. Sorry I missed the voting. --Yath 07:06, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
 * There are no double redirects as the original person who modified this article contrary to consensus and proper English did not fix them in the first place.Gateman1997 06:46, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
 * If you look at What links here, you will see that there are numerous double-redirects. For example, there are numerous articles that have links to List of California State Highways, which redirects to List of California state routes, which now redirects to List of California State Routes. Blank Verse  ∅  08:26, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I concur. I just came back from a trip to Europe and am horrified at how silly this discussion has become.  The name should be lowercase for all the reasons already stated. --Coolcaesar 09:32, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Well I stand by that it should be upper case for reasons stated. It is a proper noun.Gateman1997 15:58, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

You know what? THE DEBATE IS OVER! Now live with the results! The people who actually work on this WP should be the ones making this DECISION!--Rschen7754
 * Okay... if you want to open up the debate again... whatever. What about English Springer Spaniels? They are a type of dog, would you not agree? Yet Wikipedia capitalizes it. California State Route can also be a part of a highway system. A part is a thing, and a type is a thing, so this should also be moot. This last section is a waste of time too. This has already been decided. Also how many highway contributions have you made? (This is besides VFDing our templates and reverting our edits). Do I see your names on the CASR WP page? --Rschen7754
 * Okay... another question: is "to VFD" a verb? If you want something to discuss then there it is. --Rschen7754

Interstate Highway is a proper noun; otherwise it is a highway that goes in more than one state. --SPUI (talk) 23:57, 16 August 2005 (UTC)


 * It's no more a proper noun than "cotton gin". It describes a class of objects. "Interstate 5" is a big road in California. It is one of the interstate highways. It is an interstate highway. A lengthier term for it might be "Interstate Highway 5". See? --Yath 00:32, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Cotton gin is not designated by state/ federal law as a specific type of highway system. Interstate 5 is an Interstate Highway. The capital letters indicate that Interstate 5 is a freeway, has a design speed of 65 mph in rural areas and 55 mph in urban areas, has 2+ lanes in each direction, has no at-grade intersections, is numbered by the FHWA, etc. etc. etc. U.S. Highway 101 is an interstate highway. This is so because it does have at-grade intersections, has one lane in each direction (sometimes), has a low design speed, is numbered by the AASHTO, blah blah blah. This is why the capitalization is needed. Also where is your name on the CASR WP? Noone has answered that question yet.--Rschen7754


 * Your lack of distinction between classes of objects and specific ones is still evident, and your ad hominem (insisting that only members of WP:CASR may participate) is troubling. Maybe someone else can get through to you. --Yath 19:18, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Well... what I am saying is that people keep interfering with this WP who aren't part of it... trying to delete the cleanupcsh template, messing with capitalization, trying to delete a highway article, opening up closed debates... that is why I am a little bit frustrated. Anyone can join the CASR WP if they are interested and willing to contribute; it's just frustrating when people who aren;t working on the CASR articles challenge our standards. As for the matter at hand... Congress originally and specifically defined the Interstate Highway system. The Interstate Highway system is a specific type of classification. An interstate highway is a general type of classification. Any highway can go between 2 or more states and be an interstate highway. Only highways that meet the specific standards described above can be Interstate Highways. Also note that I-16 is an intrastate highway but it is an Interstate Highway (it only goes through Georgia yet is part of the Interstate Highway System). --Rschen7754 21:01, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * As your edit above shows, you are still confusing things. The "Interstate Highway System" is a proper noun and should be consistently capitalized for all the words in the phrase. An "interstate highway" does NOT refer to a specific highway. Therefore is not a proper noun and should not be capitalized. On the other hand, Interstate 710 refers to a specific interstate highway and is capitalized.


 * Also: remember this is a wiki where "anyone can edit" and they can edit any page that they want. They don't have to belong to a specific WikiProject to edit the pages associated with that WikiProject. For example, I'm a doer, but not much of a joiner. I have several WikiProjects and Regional notice boards on my watchlist (I've even created a couple of WikiProjects), but I've never added my User name as a participant to any of them. If I see something that interests me, I will help out (and often do), but I see no reason to add myself as an "official" participant. Blank Verse  ∅  21:58, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I suggest that the best rule of thumb for determining if they are proper nouns or not is: Do you use the definate article (the) or indefinate article (a or an) with "county route" or "state route". Then compare that usage with highway, freeway, avenue, boulevard, street, road, etc. Blank Verse  ∅  21:58, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Only problem in this instance it fits neither case.Gateman1997 18:44, 19 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Consider the following paragraph:


 * After we had been driving down the winding potholed backroad from my cousin's house, it was nice to turn onto a well-maintained two-lane road. We debated whether it was a county route or a state route because we had seen no road signs. It was probably a dozen miles or more before we finally saw the pentagon-shaped sign for a California county route. Soon after that, we reached an intersection where we turned onto a four-lane highway marked by the spade-shaped signs for a California state route. Eventually we came to a freeway. The sign on the onramp had the familar red, white and blue shield for an interstate highway.


 * Note that I always used the indefinate article. In that paragraph all of the following are common nouns: road, county route, state route, California county route, California state route, freeway, and interstate freeway. The only "the" that you will find for a road is "the ... backroad", which is refering to a specific backroad that is not named, so "backroad" is also a common noun. Blank Verse <font color=#2554C7> <font color=#F660AB>∅  08:50, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Okay. This my view on the subject matter. When you talk about a particular state route and name it with a number, you are talking about a proper noun object. Example: California State Route 99 or State Route 99. When you are talking a list or a group of state routes, with no reference to a specific number, meaning you are collectively referring to state routes of California or California state routes, you do not capitalize it because it is not a proper noun. In any case, California is always a proper noun, and you'd always capitalize it. But in the context of what state route is used in, determines whether it is part of a proper noun object or not. You'd capitalize "Route 99" simply because that is a proper noun which is a name of a road. Adding the word "state" in front of "Route 99" includes "state" part of the proper noun object, thus it would be capitalized. However, it does not follow that because "California" is a proper noun, everything after it must be capitalized. You don't refer to "California Public Schools", you refer it as "California public schools". As for the spaniel, that's the name of the dog. It's a proper noun because it is a name. Proper nouns are names of people, places, things, etc. The key word defining what a proper noun is whether it is naming something. I mean, it would be stupid to say "The Wikipedia: Free Content, Anyone Can Edit, Encyclopedia" because that's not the title of the Wikipedia. --AllyUnion (talk) 09:18, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Thoughts: So why are county routes and state routes classified as to whether they are common or specific by the article that precedes it? Let's do that with cars then: "I will buy a ford escape." "I will buy the Ford Escape." What's the difference? Also... Interstate 16 is NOT an interstate highway. You need the capitalization to diffrentiate. Also you could say that County Road S-18 is a California state highway because it is a highway... in California state. The capitalization diffrentiates. (Interstate 5 is included in California code so I couldn't use that in the example). If you don't like the county road example then use (hidden) Interstate 305... it appears nowhere in the CS&HC so it is a California state highway. By the way... yes I do know what a proper noun is... I don't need someone to tell me. Also (I must have used that word several times already)... I quote from Naming conventions: '' Convention: Do not capitalize second and subsequent words unless the title is a proper noun (such as a name) or is otherwise almost always capitalized (for example: John Wayne, but not Computer game).'' First off... California State Route is a name of a (portion of) a highway system. Second... even if it is not a proper noun, then it is almost always capitalized as the Google search proves. Third... off to Nouns... Proper nouns (also called proper names) are names and denote unique entities. California State Route is an unique entity. (Sorry but I don't know if an an is used there). There you have it... --Rschen7754 03:14, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
 * Interesting. Unique is not a word that I would have generally associated with the subject of a . . .  L I S T. Squib 22:13, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Ah, yes... it is a proper noun of a preposition. Now I'm confused. --AllyUnion (talk) 07:08, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Unique could describe the California State Route... there is no other highway classification in the world exactly like the CASR. Kentucky's highway system is not defined in one set highway code, for example. BTW, the leader of the KYSH WP recently corrected the capitalization of "List of Kentucky state highways" to "List of Kentucky State Highways." --Rschen7754