Talk:State motorcyclists' rights organizations

History
This article doesn't go into a lot of detail about ABATE's history - the fact that it is not a national organization does not necessarily imply that it has no history, or that its history is not deserving of mention. I have thus marked it as a stub. --Popefelix 06:48, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

The history of ABATE is a diverse subject, as it is not a national organization in so much each state has it's own history. ABATE's history can be found at ABATE of NY Website. I am in contact with the coordinators and directory from ABATE of New York to request permission to use thier documents as a resource to flesh in the history page section for ABATE. --Hawkwynd 22:34, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

ABATE History source ABATE of New York --Hawkwynd 22:50, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Progress
I would like to compile a table that shows which state currently have a helmet law, and which do not.

--Hawkwynd 23:06, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Proposed move to ABATE chapters

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was no consensus. @harej 23:40, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

State Motorcyclist's Rights Organization → ABATE chapters &mdash; As per Naming conventions. While State Motorcyclist's Rights Organizations (SMROs) is technically the most correct term to collectively describe the independent ABATE chapters in each US state, it is an obscure and confusing term. The normal way that ABATE is talked about in the media and elsewhere is as "ABATE"; "ABATE of (state name)" is said when disambiguation is appropriate. This will need to be elaborated in the body of article, as the independence of the chapters is fundamental to the Libertarian, States' rights-oriented politics of ABATE chapters. That is, prescribing the use of the term SMRO instead of ABATE is part of their political message, not unlike pro-Life, pro-Choice, etc.Dbratland (talk) 20:49, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Support - If it is pink, has a flat noise, a curly tail and goes oink then it's a pig. I always believed you should call something by what it is. However, the move wouldn't be appropriate if there are any state organisations which are not called ABATE. Are there? --Biker Biker (talk) 06:47, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Inherently confusing either way . There are ~7 SMROs that don't use the name ABATE, and about 25 that do (Idaho has 2 ABATEs, some states have none).  See this list (some are defunct).  There is no ABATE of New Hampshire, for example, but if you Google "ABATE of New Hampshire" the top hit is the NHMRO - New Hampshire Motorcyclist's Rights Organization.  Mostly because the NH organization started in 1975 when ABATE had not yet spread across the country, so the old name was kept even after ABATE became the de facto umbrella term.  DMOZ places the ABATEs in one category and Bikers' Rights groups in a different one, which I argue is misleading, because the state-level Bikers' Rights groups are ABATE chapters by another name.  The Motorcycle Riders Foundation is national, and not the same thing as, say, NHMRO. I concede there is no good solution, and SRMO is more accurate to include the ones who don't have ABATE in the name, but when you say SRMO nobody knows what you're talking about. When you say ABATE, almost everyone (in the US motorcycling scene) knows what you mean.--Dbratland (talk) 17:33, 11 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved to State motorcyclists' rights organizations
Since it wasn't moved to ABATE chapters, I moved it to State motorcyclists' rights organizations, because: Not a proper noun -- there is no central "State Motorcyclist's Rights Organization". It is a collective descriptor for various state-level groups, most of them called ABATE of [state], some by other names. And motorcyclists' should be possessive plural.--Dbratland (talk) 00:42, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Possible references

 * Also
 * Also

--Dbratland (talk) 00:57, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

I propose significant changes to this article.
Disclosure: I am an experienced Wikipedia editor who has recently taken up motorcycling and joined ABATE of California. I believe that this article should be moved to "ABATE" as that is by far the most common name for such state level groups in the U.S. I also believe that the current "Criticism" section gives undue weight to criticism by a single commentator, Michael Dresser. The article needs a much better range of references and a broader perspective, in line with the neutral point of view. Comments from other editors are welcomed.  Cullen 328  Let's discuss it  04:23, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I tried to have it moved to ABATE chapters before but didn't get enough consensus. You have my support if you want to try again. As far as the criticism, it could be expanded but the tone and content are an accurate reflection of third party observations of ABATE. Most reasonable people who meet a "motorcycle safety" group who wear either skid lids, or no helmets at all, who meet in bars, and who oppose mandatory motorcyclist training, are rather incredulous. ABATE sounds more like a "you're not the boss of me" group than a "safety" group.Anyway, I would consider the guidelines in WP:COI. If one is a member of this club, it could be more difficult to objectively edit an article on them, in comparison to editing an article on a group you're not personally a member of. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 04:39, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I joined ABATE just this week, Dennis, explicitly as a Wikipedia editor with nearly 18,000 edits, in the hopes of obtaining access to reliable sources that describe the full range of views on this group. I do not intend to be a POV editor on their behalf. I edit on my own and in support of NPOV, not to advance any group's particular agenda. I am also a Sierra Club member, and edit neutrally in that topic area as well. Of course, this group has that "you're not the boss of me" flavor, but it is not up to us as Wikipedia editors to make such judgments on our own. That would be original research. We are here to report and summarize what the full range of reliable sources say about the topic - not just what one specific reporter wrote in a series of critical columns a few years back. In California, where I live, ABATE holds a seat on the advisory committee for the California Motorcycle Safety Program (CMSP) which conducts safety training under state government auspices, supervised by the California Highway Patrol. I graduated from one of those courses just five days ago. They are also leading advocates for May as Motorcycle Safety Awareness Month, and cooperate with other motorcycle groups and dealerships throughout California. I see them as a bit controversial but not at all a fringe group. But I am just getting started with this article, and look forward to collaborating with you and other interested editors.  Cullen 328  Let's discuss it  05:00, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

I am not an ABATE member, however I am familiar with a few local chapters. None of them meet in bars. Two of them meet in local motorcycle shops, and one meets in a community center. I ride, so I do understand the helmet arguments. They are hot and diminish the pleasure of having the breeze in your hair. There are better models available now, but the older helmets restricted your hearing and your peripheral vision, which are vital tools to help a rider stay out of an accident. However, this article seems to be missing ABATE's position on the helmet law. ABATE does not encourage or discourage the use of a helmet, it is the motto: "Let those that ride decide." We could make it safer by wrapping a cyclist in a sturdy metal container, but then they would be driving a car. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cklawitter (talk • contribs) 15:57, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The article says ABATE is "opposed to mandatory helmet laws". Where does it say ABATE discourages helmets? If it says that, we should delete it. Are you referring to the opinion of Michael Dresser? He is a critic of ABATE and we quote him directly so that we don't distort his opinions. That's all. It's OK to disagree with him. Wikipedia doesn't present what Dresser thinks as facts, it's just what the guy thinks. The reason the section requires expansion is that we should include more opinions. Your additions are welcome! Please do the necessary research and expand the article to help balance it.By the way, the claim that helmets diminish sight and hearing was debunked at least as far back as 1994. Though by inference, the fact that helmeted riders didn't have more accidents in studies like the 1979 Hurt Report is evidence that even 35+ years ago helmets didn't diminish sight and hearing. I don't know what vintage of helmets you're thinking of. The old puddin' bowl helmets didn't cover your ears or block your sight. Either that or sight and hearing aren't vital tools in avoiding an accident, which I don't think is plausible. I think most drivers would like what you propose: making motorcyclists all drive cars. They don't see what good it does them to have us around; they only see the cost, and they don't want to pay. Mandatory helmets are just one way to minimize that cost and avoid an outright ban of motorcycling.Anyway, please go ahead and expand the article. If you need help finding sources or getting access to premium databases, please say so. There is help available, such as WikiProject Resource Exchange. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:02, 19 May 2015 (UTC)