Talk:Station wagon

Mention MG ZT?
Is it worth mentioning the MG ZT as holding the speed record for an estate of 225.6mph? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_ZT

American Wagons
"The Ford Focus wagon, Daimler-Chrysler's Dodge Magnum, General Motor's Chevrolet Malibu Maxx, and the Mazda Mazda6 are the only station wagons produced by U.S. based automobile manufacturers in the 2005 model year." - There are some others I can think of that are not in this sentence - Ford Freestyle wagon and Pontiac Vibe and maybe Chevrolet Aveo? This brings up another question - what exactly is the difference between a "hatchback" and a "small station wagon" (in the case of the Aveo and the Vibe)? And I'm not sure if Mazda is considered to be "US-based", even though they are owned by Ford. For these reasons, I've deleted this sentence for now. Scottmso 04:46, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * For the record, the Mazda6 wagon is built in the United States in the same plant as the Ford Mustang. Can't get more American than that! :)
 * The Ford Taurus wagon was also still produced in 2005. The Aveo is made in Korea but Chevy is a "U.S. based automobile manufacturer" so I don't know if you'd want to include it or not. Probably not. The statement as worded was open to confusion.75.33.75.2 12:15, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Declining popularity
I think it's important to label the one title "Declining Popularity in North America". Over here in Europe, wagons are sold about as often as sedans, maybe they even sell better. So pardon me, but I'll change the heading again for that reason. Dan3k5 21:02, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sedan car?
Thank you whoever added UK usage. But UK readers don't know what a "sedan car" is :( -- Tarquin 19:47 Jan 11, 2003 (UTC)


 * I know, I know.... But I paled at the thought of a sentence that goes something like: "A station wagon (US, Australian and South African usage) or estate car (UK and European usage) is an ordinary sedan (UK and Australian usage) or saloon (UK usage) with an extended cargo area instead of the trunk (US usage) or boot (UK and Australian usage), and is similar to a utility or ute (Australian usage) or pickup truck (US usage) or some other term I don't know (UK usage) except that ..." And we haven't even got down to the para where the article discusses SUV's yet.


 * (sob) Tannin 20:03 Jan 11, 2003 (UTC)


 * Just to add to the confusion: while in Australia I learned that a panel van is a kind of station wagon, but without the extended side windows to the back. some have rear windows, others don't. I don't know the UK, US, SA, ... terms (if they exist). D.D. 20:16 Jan 11, 2003 (UTC)


 * Not quite: it's taller than a station wagon and only has two doors. Tradesmen use them all the time (plumbers and electricians and so on) because they have lots of room but drive like a car. They all have rear windows, many, perhaps most, have side windows. There was a huge craze for panel vans in the '70s and '80s, because they were fairly cheap to buy, could be specified to have a factory fitted 5 litre V8, and you could then spend thousands and thousands of dollars getting a lurid air-brished paint job and an enormous sound system, put your surfboards on the roof rack and take it to the beach, where you could hang out trying to pick up girls and then get sand all through that black crush-pile velvet lining you had spent months fitting to the inside of the van. The people who did this to their panel vans are now the 40ish parents of the coming generation. Scary, isn't it. Tannin 20:33 Jan 11, 2003 (UTC)


 * Indeed, but thanks for the exact information :-) D.D. 20:36 Jan 11, 2003 (UTC)


 * This is admittedly some slippery terminology, and may vary from market to market. In US terms, at least, I think there's more than one vehicle under discussion here.


 * It sounds to me like Tannin is talking about a cargo van, which indeed was often customized as described. These bodies were just boxes, and although they sometimes had windows in the rear sides, usually didn't.  The Ford Econoline would be an example.  They came along in the 60s and are still around--much larger than the later minivans, though.


 * Before that, there were some pickups built with similar bodies, called panel trucks. They had the conventional pickup hood, but a van-like body, completely enclosed, behind that--think a Chevy Suburban with no windows in the rear.   Here's a picture of a '58 Ford.


 * At the same time, 40s to 50s, several manufacturers offered versions of their standard car-based station wagons, but with sheet metal instead of windows on the rear sides. I think this might have been what D.D.'s Australian friends were talking about.  These were usually called panel delivery models in the US.  They died out once vans came along, but were revived again in the 70s by Chevrolet and Ford, who both offered panel delivery models of their subcompact wagons.  Here, from the very late 70s, is a picture of the Ford Pinto version.


 * Hope this helps more than it hurts. RivGuySC 23:42, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * Remember that 2 door station wagon based models with solid metal sheeting over the rear windows that were used by small businesses, delivery services, etc. are called "Sedan Delivery" vehicles. Save for the Pinto (which was more homage to custom vans), these pretty much went the way of the Dodo in the early 1960s. user: stude62 talk:stude62 23:01, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

A pretty radical overhaul
I performed a pretty radical overhaul on this article today. I hope I haven't stepped on too many toes. I included information on the "woody" wagon and clarified some sales trends based upon information from the Standard Catalogue of Cars (1945-1965) and Standard Catalogue of Cars (1966-1990). user: stude62 user talk:stude62 22:53, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Some good info. That picture of the Mercury Communter is outstanding--best one I've ever seen of that very rare model. RivGuySC 17:16, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Avant?
I've hard the term avant used to mean station wagon, but I don't know enough about there term, who uses it for example, to add it to there article.


 * It is the name Audi apply to their estate/station wagon models. AFAIK, "Avant" is not used in reference to estate cars in general, and no other manufacturer uses it. See Car body style. SamH|Talk 11:08, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

On the bottom of this German page there are lots and lots of different names for wagons. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kombinationskraftwagen


 * Just so it's noted here... several manufacturers have taken to inventing their own terms. Fiat sometimes use "Weekend" and Alfa (and others?) "Sportwagon". Volkswagen tried something particularly odd with the Polo when the main variant ("main" in some markets) was the estate, but not named as such, and the hatchback was the "Coupé" and the saloon the "Classic" (again, not in all markets). We might want to make mention of these quirks somewhere in the article, but very clearly as manufacturer's own terms, not general ones. (But see the discussion below about general terms.) – Kieran T  (' talk ') 13:11, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Overhaul 3-30-2006
I attempted to do an overhaul today on the station wagon article. While reading it in its porevious state, it simple had no logical flow, or continuity to it. In addition to reoranizing it, I also beefed up the history of the vehicle, added more images and shifted other ones around. I also replaced the leading image of the Saab wagon with an image of a 1972 Ford Country Squire for two simple reasons - production of the Country Squire far out paced the Saab, and that the Country Squire is an icon station wagon. Stude62 15:31, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

European Name
Where in Europe are station wagons called "Shooting Break?" First, the UK and Ireland are the only two English speaking countires in Europe; thus the there cannot be one English term that is used all across Eruope. In Germany we obviously do not call a station wagon a Shooting Break but a Kombi, especially since only the ladder term is German! Second, it already states that in the UK the vehicle is called Estate Wagon. I have therefore removed the term "Shooting Break," as it is an imaginary word. Regards,  Signature brendel  05:28, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, the term is used in Belgium, Nethlands and portions of Northern France, according to my sources, especially when applied to Woody wagons. I've found it in numerous periodicals from the 1930s and 1940s, and it is used in Donald Narus' Crestline book "Great American Woodies and Wagons"; Also Patrick Van der Strict (Belgium), European Woody expert also uses the term as well, which is common in Belgium and the Netherlands.  Evidently the European "Shooting Break" refers to a woody/woodie that uses a wood body aft of the sedan front doors (which remain steel). So I have reinstated the term. Stude62 13:44, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The French word for station wagon is "break." As I understand it (and feel free to correct me), "shooting break" is chiefly a British term, and refers to a special type of station wagon: it has two doors, is often derived from a sports car and made by a custom coachbuilder, and is intended for hunters (hence "shooting"), giving them a posh car that can store their hunting gear. I guess calling it a "break" classes it up. adamrice 14:21, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm changing shooting break based on my above definition, in the absence of commentary to the otherwise. adamrice 16:28, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I've just added a bit about the French use of "break" in the same way the UK uses "estate". It's always a bit of a nightmare trying to "internationalise" an article which clearly started life from a U.S. point of view (no offence aimed at that view.) But hopefully my slight tweaks to the mention of MPVs and "shooting brakes" will help and not be controversial. I think the point about breaks is interesting but as it was, it implied that it was a common term &mdash; it's really not, in the UK, and I'd be surprised if many people under the age of 40 would know the term unless they're classic car enthusiasts. Interesting to read about its popularity in Belgium & The Netherlands though. A Benelux paragraph in the main article, perhaps, anyone? – Kieran T  ( talk  01:22, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Just a note on spelling. Kieran T uses what seems to me to be the current usual English spelling "brake", whereas the French spell it "break". The OED says a 19th century meaning of "break" is a large carriage-frame with no body, used for "breaking" in young horses. A later 19th century meaning, presumably derived from this, was "a large wagonette". The use of "shooting break" seems a logical extension. (One website says shooting break derives from the vehicle carrying the picnic for a "break" from the shooting! I think this looks unlikely since the word already meant wagon.) However, although the French have kept the original (English) word, the British have modified it to "brake". I can't find any evidence as to why this would be but my guess is that it might have been a result of confusion with the railway term "brake car", which was based on "brake" meaning to slow a vehicle. Adrian Robson 09:02, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * For whatever its worth, both "shooting break" and "shooting brake" have plenty of Google hits, but the latter outnumbers the former, 222,000 to 46,000. Although "break" ties the word back to its origins more closely, in this case, I'm inclined to go with popular usage, though I would stick in "'shooting brake' (or less commonly 'shooting break')" on first reference. adamrice 15:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It might also be worth a link to its horse-drawn predecessor at Brake (carriage) which helps to explain where the name came from. Adrian Robson 15:23, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The UK, US, and Australian names being in the article makes sense to me, but the French and German ones don't---of course they use a different name, because they're different languages! A station wagon is called an οικογενειακό αυτοκίνητο in Greek (lit. "family automobile"); should we add that too? I'd propose removing the non-English names therefore, since this isn't a translating dictionary. --Delirium 18:16, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm going to restore these on the reasoning that they are names used in the English-speaking world (at least in the UK) and so are of relevance and use; for example, Citroën estates are often called Breaks, and this info could be of use to people unclear as to what that means. – Kieran T  (' talk ') 18:25, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * If that's true, it should be reworded, to something like "occasional UK usage", to make clear that it's usage in English, rather than merely French as it currently says. And I've never heard of "kombi" being used in English; some quick searching doesn't turn up a single German car manufacturer who uses the term in English-language material. --Delirium 20:32, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * ...reworded version offered up. – Kieran T  (' talk ') 13:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It was clearer before in that it stated "English usage", "French usage", "German usage", etc. There's nothing that says English speakers don't sometimes use the French term, German term, etc. 75.33.81.8 13:13, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, but was trying to take Delirium's points on board. I strongly dislike the new version you've just put in place, because it implies that shooting brake is in current usage... see the discussion above about that (and the content of the article.) I think we're not quite there yet with this intro. Since the discussion is on-going, I should chip in that a quick search on Wikipedia itself reveals at least two vehicles described in English as Kombis; the Volkswagen Type 2 being the obvious one. Okay, it's not an estate as we'd recognise today, but it predates the term "MPV". Other 1970s VWs, specifically their small estates, were also known as Kombis. I'm sure of that because we had one, but I don't have a reference for you (yet). A very much more estate-like model clearly described as a Kombi is the Lloyd which is included as a picture in the present article! Note that we don't need the manufacturer to have used the term, just the public. If manufacturer's usage was the test, then we'd have to include "Weekend" and "Avant" as well (see topic further above). – Kieran T  (' talk ') 13:45, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I was only going by the Wikipedia entry for Shooting brake which states "today the term may be used to refer to any estate car". Clearly we have contradictory articles here. Interesting that BMW, a German company, is using the term "shooting brake" often lately, first with the Z3 M "Coupe" and now the new 3 series. I'm not sure if would be more accurate to call it a two-door hatchback or wagon.
 * It flows logically to go from "estate" to "shooting brake" to "break" to "kombi" which is why I added "shooting brake" to the article. I can't see adding "break" without even mentioning "shooting brake", despite the minor spelling variation of "break".
 * I dislike the new version you've put in place
 * Correction: That wasn't you KieranT. You had written "some models" in an earlier edit and someone else had later edited the article to read "a few models".
 * where it says "A few models are called a break" "or kombi" over "sometimes called a break" "or kombi" because it tends to make it sound like there are differences in a few specific models that require one to call it a break or kombi rather than saying sometimes people just prefer to use that term. I had added "break (from the French usage)" and "kombi (from the German usage)" in response to Delirium's point with the thought that this is an English speaking dictionary and English speakers are using those words that they have taken from the French and German usage, not trying to say they are using those words in France and Germany in their native language. I'm not listing the Greek word for wagon, Italian word for wagon or Polish word for wagon either on that point since it's not generally used in the English language. ;)
 * I've not heard the word "break" in use myself but as I said I include it due to it's connection to "shooting brake". And I have read "kombi" or "combi" on English language websites. But perhaps it was just a mistranslation from another language? Maybe even an Asian automaker? Saab uses the term SportCombi in North America. VW calls their Bus/Minivan/MPV a Kombi in South America.
 * The intro would be better if all the various "from the -fill-in-the-blank- usage" statements were in the same format. Either all in parenthesis or none instead of a mixture of both.
 * 75.33.75.2 12:07, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Then again, maybe not. I'm not sure what change would be best. I don't really like the look of "(American and Australian usage)" and then "in British usage". It makes it seem like the article is mainly about American and Australian usage with British as an aside. That would work if there was a separate article called estate car but there is not.
 * 75.33.75.2 12:53, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I've edited it to eliminate the parenthesis, among other changes.
 * 75.33.75.2 13:54, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Looking good. There's a comma (or something similar) missing towards the end, when it gets a bit breathless going from French to German, but overall much tider. Cheers :) – Kieran T  (' talk ') 13:57, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, perhaps the French and German terms should be two sentences instead of one. 75.33.75.2 16:26, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * ... And I did make that change.
 * I see New Zealand usage has been added. I wondered about that but couldn't add it myself. 75.33.86.4 12:19, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Popularity in Aus, NZ and SA
Not sure about this statement:


 * Indeed, the absence of a station wagon in a model range is considered detrimental to its success by manufacturers in Australasia.

It's true that the wagon is the mainstay of the Ford Falcon and Holden Commodore ranges, but Mitsubishi and Toyota no longer offer large wagons. Smaller wagons are much rarer in Australia, if not New Zealand, than they are in Europe. The Mondeo was the only medium-sized wagon offered by Ford Australia since it dropped the Cortina, and that was axed before the sedan and hatchback. In fact, Holden's VE Commodore wagon won't be released until next year (if at all) and there are even question marks about a wagon version of the next Falcon. Quiensabe 23:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Station Wagon vs. Wagon
In America, the terms "station wagon" and "wagon" are used interchangeably. It's not that "station wagon" is more "formal". "Station wagon" is the older term and the newer shortened form is simply "wagon". Today "wagon" is used more often. And has been since the 1980's. 75.33.81.8 13:15, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

After thinking about it I take it back if "formal" name was being used in the same way as "full name". That would be true. Calling a Station Wagon "Wagon" is like calling Johnathon "John". It's better as it is listed in the article now to just state "station wagon or simply wagon" since it's obvious that it's simply a shortened form of the name so no explanation is needed. Same with the line "estate car or just estate in British usage". The reason people say "wagon" over "station wagon" is "wagon" reminds one more of a modern sport wagon rather than a lumbering old "station wagon". But even "wagon" is now often avoided instead being replaced by the term "5-door". 75.33.75.2 11:03, 8 January 2007 (UTC)


 * We must be careful not to start doing what's known on Wikipedia as "original research". If there's a verifiable fact about what people call these things, then a reference should be provided. Some things are common sense, of course, and we don't need to reference every single word we use. But stating the reason people use one word over another would only be acceptable in the article if there had been a number of studies or surveys into that. One's own experience, no matter how considerable, is not enough. The same applies to the use of the term "5-door". If it's becoming more common, which publications say so? 62.30.176.215 16:47, 8 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes but you see that is why I put it on the discussion page where it belongs and not in the actual article. This is what the talk page is for. Good pointing it out in case somebody decides to include that information in the article. There's sure to be plenty of references and citations if one wants to seek them out. And information on the "5-door" nomenclature should be found quite easily. 75.33.86.4 12:12, 12 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Mazda Protege5 and Kia Spectra5 are two examples of cars being called "5-doors" rather than "wagons".


 * Here's a few interesting links I found:


 * As for the reason that is exactly what I was talking about when I said "It's better as it is listed in the article now to just state "station wagon or simply wagon"" and leave out the possible reasons and explanations and speculations. It seemed that the word "formal" was a "reason" of sorts. Now I wonder if it was meant to be "former"? In any case, the present article contains none of this.


 * Also, as you say a reference may need to be cited but not necessarily a number of them.


 * :) 75.33.86.4 12:12, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

On the term "station sedan"
This was the term used by Holden from the introduction of the body style with the FE model in 1956 up to I think the HD, HR, or HK in the mid to late 1960s. Neither Ford Australia or any other company I know of in Australia used this term. American-based companies in Australia used "staion wagon" and British-based companies used "estate" in the beginning. Now only "station wagon" or just "wagon" is used. I'll try to do some better checking when I get back to Australia.

I did not know "station sedan" was used by any American companies until I did some Google searches. The easiest to find is the Packard Station Sedan, produced between 1948 and 1950. &mdash; Hippietrail 19:50, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Shaggin' Waggin'
This is a legitimate term used by many. Google will prove it, but there are far too many hits to list.

"Suburban"
The terms "Suburban" & "Suburban Carryall" began in the early 1920s, per Old Burb Club -- The History of the Suburban. "Suburban" was generic enuf that New York State, in (at least) the mid-1950s, assigned license plates bearing the word, to station wagons (perhaps taxing them differently?). The article already acknowledges the term, but makes it sound more marginal that i think is justified. Perhaps the article i cite above should be further mined. --Jerzy•t 11:26, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Until I came here, I had never heard the term "suburban" used as a generic term for "station wagon", only the Chevy Suburban model, which is IMHO opinion more a van than a station wagon. Perhaps this is a regional thing, as certainly the ads from the 1920s in the site you have above make use of the term "suburban". But in Southern California during the 50s and 60s (rather the heyday of the SW as a family vehicle) it was only known as a station wagon, or wagon for short. "Woodie" of course was used by surfers for that particular version of SW.Wschart (talk) 20:09, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Tailgates
Some pictures of the various styles of tailgates would be a good addition, especially the 'doorgates' GM and Ford used. Some of GM's doorgates were poorly designed, when used as a door they only opened about 45 degrees and when opened as a tailgate they didn't go down fully flat and level with the cargo floor. IIRC, all of Ford's doorgates opened 90 degrees in both modes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bizzybody (talk • contribs) 22:15, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

"Ford's full-size wagons for 1966 introduced a system marketed as "Magic Doorgate" — a conventional tailgate with retracting rear glass, where the tailgate could either fold down or pivot open on a side hinge — with the rear window retracted in either case. " -- statement isn't quite true. Can pivot open with glass up or down; can pivot down with glass retracted. marketed as "three way tailgate" Feldercarb (talk) 21:15, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

The age of train travel
"The first station wagons were a product of the age of train travel." That sounds as if that age was over; why am I then travelling by train all the time? --84.115.129.76 (talk) 12:45, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Station Wagons vs CAFE
In "Declining popularity", I removed this editorial bit because it really doesn't make any sense. Station wagons are no worse for CAFE scores than the sedans they are based on. Furthermore, wagons such as the Chevy Celebrity and Ford Taurus sold in great numbers well into the CAFE era. 71.134.255.232 (talk) 11:05, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on Station wagon. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110929150833/http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/1736/the-death-of-the-station-wagon/ to http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/1736/the-death-of-the-station-wagon/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090830073626/http://www.edmunds.com:80/insideline/do/News/articleId=152306 to http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=152306

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Negative connotations
In the US, "station wagon" has negative connotations just like "minivan". It implies someone has a bunch of children. 24.51.217.35 (talk) 11:45, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Early european models
How about all those french 'commerciale' cars of 1920s & 1930s like Citoën Traction, Peugeot 401, 402, 202, Renault Vivaquarte and many other, also Lancia Ardea Promiscuetta? Dieſelmaus (talk) 14:42, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Rename to Wagon (automobile)
Hi. Could we please have a discussion about the name for this article before it gets moved? Personally I think "station wagon" is better suited, but I will keep an open mind to your reasoning. Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 21:40, 17 October 2020 (UTC)