Talk:Statue of Moses (University of Notre Dame)

Requested move 31 August 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Statue of Moses (University of Notre Dame). (closed by non-admin page mover) SilverLocust 💬 19:28, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Moses, Notre Dame → Statue of Moses – Per WP:VAMOS, which says: "For portrait sculptures of individuals in public places the forms "Statue of Fred Foo", "Equestrian statue of Fred Foo" or "Bust of Fred Foo" are recommended, unless a form such as "Fred Foo Memorial" or "Monument to Fred Foo" is the WP:COMMONNAME. If further disambiguation is needed, because there is more than one sculpture of the same person with an article, then disambiguation by location rather than the sculptor is usually better. This may be done as either "Statue of Fred Foo (Chicago)" (typically preferred for North America) or "Statue of Fred Foo, Glasgow" (typically preferred elsewhere)." If editors feel additional disambiguation is required -- see Moses (Michelangelo) -- then perhaps Statue of Moses (University of Notre Dame). I think either would be an improvement over the current title. -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 18:18, 31 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose It could refer to any statue of Moses. Killuminator (talk) 20:05, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Killuminator My proposal includes an alternative for this very reason. How do you feel about the title with disambiguation? --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 20:08, 31 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Move to Moses (University of Notre Dame), per WP:VAMOS. 162 etc. (talk) 01:34, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @162 etc. Inviting you to review my assessment below. I am not entirely opposed to your preferred title, but is "Moses" the name of the artwork? --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 14:04, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * My suggestion is based on the article as it reads today, which states that the statue is named Moses. I'm not an expert on this statue, nor have I done any analysis of secondary sources relating to it, and therefore have no objection to "Statue of Moses (University of Notre Dame)" as the article title. 162 etc. (talk) 17:23, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 *  Moses Statue of Moses (University of Notre Dame) works keeping the name of the statue [edit: per below source search, likely needs the disamb. since other famous statues of Moses exist, and would change this back if a source or two are found]. This isn't actually a portrait statue as it has other notable elements - the Ten Commandments, the bull, the notable pointing finger, etc. (portraits, per lead language, focus almost entirely on the faces or busts of their subjects). Randy Kryn (talk) 13:52, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @Randy Kryn I agree with you re: portrait statue, but what evidence is there that Moses is the name of the artwork? Here are what the citations say:
 * 1. "an eighteen-foot bronze Moses on the campus of Notre Dame"
 * 2. "an eighteen-foot bronze Moses on the campus of Notre Dame"
 * 3. (not sure)
 * 4. (not sure)
 * 5. "Statue of Moses"
 * 6. (not sure)
 * 7. (not sure)
 * 8. "Touch Down Moses"
 * 9. "statue of Moses", "We're Number One Moses". "There is a little confusion around campus as to what the name truly is for Moses. Most know him as We’re Number One Moses, which a student declared in The Observer, but others know him as First Down Moses. Whatever you want to call him, Moses is something you have to see for yourself."
 * 10. "First Down Moses"
 * 11. (bad source)


 * Other sources not currently used as inline citations:


 * "statue of Moses"
 * "First Down Moses"
 * "'We're No. 1' Moses (also known as 'First Down' Moses)"

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * I guess my point is, "Statue of Moses" seems most appropriate unless someone can demonstrate "First Down Moses" or simply "Moses" is used more in sources. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 14:03, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Went looking and did no better, so yes, can't be sure as of now that the sculptor named the statue simply Moses. I like First Down Moses but that, of course, was not the sculptor's original name. So if a change is made the Statue of Moses (University of Notre Dame) fits. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:28, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks! For the record, I'd also be okay with First Down Moses IF someone can prove this is the common (nick)name used most often in reliable sources. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 14:30, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Move to Statue of Moses (University of Notre Dame). I assumed from the current title it was in the Paris Cathedral, as would most of the world. "Touch Down Moses" is a nickname not worthy of being the title, and probably only known locally. There are several other statues of Moses with articles (and, let's face it, much better known than this one), so disam is needed. Johnbod (talk) 15:32, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm down to create Statue of Moses as a disambiguation page. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 17:27, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I support the Statue of Moses (specifying parenthetical) approach. But why (University of Notre Dame) and not (Josep Turkjali) ... Is the place of the statue more important than the creator? -- Jaireeodell (talk) 19:34, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Given he has no article, probably it is. Johnbod (talk) 20:58, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * OK, I agree. He's probably notable, though. Josip Turkalj or Joseph Turkaly. See:
 * http://www.croatia.org/crown/articles/9265/1/Josip-Turkalj-1924-2007-a-renowned-Croatian-American-artist-died.html
 * https://www.clevescene.com/arts/turn-to-stone-1504264
 * https://www.google.com/books/edition/From_the_Adriatic_to_Lake_Erie/vgkSAQAAIAAJ?bshm=rime/1
 * -- Jaireeodell (talk) 19:22, 2 September 2023 (UTC)