Talk:Staunton, Virginia/Archive 1

"Blackfriars Playhouse", not "Blackfriars Theatre"
The Shakespeare theatre in Staunton is called "Blackfriars Playhouse", not "Blackfriars Theatre". This is according to their own website. Anyone disapprove of me making this change in the article? --Takeel 12:20, 26 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Not at all. Have at it.  My fault I think for calling it a theatre in the first place.  Haha, and I worked there for two years.  Shh don't tell anyone...Stanselmdoc 13:17, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Sister City?
Doesn't Staunton have a sister city in Romania? It has been a while since I lived their. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.85.255.10 (talk • contribs).
 * Yes. It's Vişeu de Sus, in Romania.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 03:18, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I've added that into the article, but if anyone can make it read more elegantly, please do fix it... SchuminWeb (Talk) 15:07, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

The Train Station, Depot, Bridge, and Water Tower
Shining landmarks of Staunton. Is there any available history on these icons? The train station has become a nest of restaurants and shops I believe, but retains the character (and functionality) it has had since the Civil War. Additionally there are the shops adjacent to the train station, including the good old Jolly Roger. I would love to see some more information posted about these landmarks. 24.4.102.34 14:49, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Populations
Does anyone have any historical populations for Staunton, Waynesboro, or Augusta County?bob (talk) 22:56, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Placement?
"The city's reputation as a socially conservative place has been bolstered by its top law enforcer's 2007 decision to criminally prosecute the merchant running an adult video store.[7]" Why is this placed under film? --erunaheru (talk) 06:30, 25 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The better question is why is this here? This is both recentism and POV; the reference does not support the statement "The city's reputation as a socially conservative place".  --—  Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  09:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation
First, let me apologize for the erroneous information I put in, which was wisely caught by Stanselmdoc. I completely missed the already existing pronounciation guide in the text. I enlarged it, but realized, that even after following the IPA link, the current linguistic information is still rather confusing for the layman (myself!). Not to mention, that backward C symbol is outright confusing. Could a more general guide to pronouncing the name be included, so people don't have to be linguistic experts to readily understand? I grew up happily correcting people to its pronounciation, so I'd just like to see that its article does equally a good job of doing such. ~ (The Rebel At) ~ 18:58, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Even as I was removing what you wrote I thought about how dumb it was to have such a bad pronunciation explanation on there. Some Staunton sites write "Staunton (STAN-ton)". Or something else like that would definitely be preferrable. Stanselmdoc 19:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It might not be academic, but I much prefer your change to the other. Thanks for doing such! ~ (The Rebel At) ~ 11:45, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

AjaxSmack replaced the traditional English pronunciation per WP:PRON with the IPA. WP:PRON demands that IPA be there, but it also allows a traditional pronunciation guide where appropriate. So, I put the previous traditional English pronunciation back as an alternative guide as well as adding my own interpretation. I know that convention says that the "T" sound should be in the second syllable, but it really is pronounced in the first syllable in the local accent. &mdash;BozoTheScary 01:11, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


 * No it isn't. I'm from Staunton, and I pronounce it STAN-ton. It can certainly be pronounced incorrectly, but if we open the "local dialect" can of worms, why not throw the STAN-nen in there as well? The correct pronunciation puts the "t" with the second syllable. As such, I've changed it. -FerociousBeast (talk) 16:47, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * You would be the only person that I've heard of routinely pronouncing it that way. Enjoy your red bikeshed.  –BozoTheScary (talk) 19:16, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * It is not how we pronounce it, it is how the references show it is pronounced. Here is at least one reference: .  Although "a city in N Virginia" is plain wrong.  --—  Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  21:08, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * You are indeed correct that as it stands, an unreffed pronunciation is WP:OR. I find it interesting that everyone I know from Staunton pronounces the second 't' almost silently as part of the first syllable, suggesting that this source is wrong and/or my hearing needs to be checked.  All of the educated ones openly recognize that their pronunciation is non-standard and unexpected.  Anyway, the pronunciation will continue to be the most edited part of this article, so I'll reserve my opinions to this here peanut gallery and watch the sparks fly when the next casual editor swoops in and "corrects" it.  –BozoTheScary (talk) 21:41, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with the second "t" being pronounced in the first syllable, as opposed the second. ~ (The Rebel At) ~ 01:33, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * As a Staunton native, I must agree with Bozo's pronunciation, however I can understand the issue of OR in this matter. However, is a single source with at least one other major error enough to outweigh the consensus of all but one of the natives involved in this discussion? A dictionary writer (who is obviously unfamiliar with the area) would be likely to simply follow convention. erunaheru (talk) 07:24, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

User:Aeglias indicated that the distinction between the expected pronunciation and the local pronunciation was in the second syllable. I don't find that to be true, but I'm reluctantly to revert it without some discussion. Also, the comment about being pegged as an outsider is kind of unencyclopedic, but I have similar reservations. –BozoTheScary 19:09, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah, the second pronounciation is the only correct pronounciation. There doesn't need to be a "Stahn'ten" guide.  I agree the outsider comment doesn't seem appropiate for an article. ~ (The Rebel At) ~  22:21, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

VSDB
Staunton is the home to Virginia School for the Deaf and Blind and I do not see you mention it at all. Founded in 1839, it played a part in fostering the relationship with Staunton. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.65.52.255 (talk • contribs).
 * You're right - there is nothing in there. You're free to and encouraged to BE BOLD and write something in yourself if you'd like.  But I agree - it is something worth writing about, especially with the whole to-do regarding VSDB's possible relocation.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 18:31, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * VSDB was once called the "Virginia School for the Deaf and Dumb", but I am not sure when the name changed to the more politically appropriate name that it has today. I will try to gather some info from old newspapers and family members and work on a proper submission.24.4.102.34 14:43, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

VSBD was actually originally named "Virginia Institution for the Deaf and Dumb and Blind" Ismus (talk) 20:41, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

American Shakespeare Center and Staunton History links
The following discussion occurred on my talk page:

I appreciate your diligence in removing the link to the Staunton history web page, and in that same spirit I have removed the link to the American Shakespeare Center, which is purely a business operation that relies on ticket sales and tours to stay in business. If it is inappropriate for Wikipedia to link to a site that offers historical resources that may be purchased, it is also inappropriate for it to link to a site for a business concern in Staunton.

If ASC is to receive a link in the Staunton, Va., listing, so should Joe's Plumbing, Dixie Gas and Oil, and Staunton History. 64.203.156.103 (talk) 23:58, 29 March 2009 (UTC)


 * You're slightly off there - the Staunton history site is blatant advertising, and removed per WP:SPAM. The American Shakespeare Center, on the other hand, has notability established, and has its own article. SchuminWeb (Talk) 06:10, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

The ASC is a commercial enterprise that relies on the sales of tickets and schlock to stay in business. The fact that it has a page on Wikipedia doesn't change that fact. The Stonewall Jackson Hotel also has a page on Wikipedia, but it is a business and hence, according to Wikipedia's own rules, doesn't get a link on the Staunton page.

The Staunton history site is no more commercial than ASC's, which uses its site to sell everything from tickets and tours to coffee mugs and t-shirts. If one business is going to receive special dispensation to generate income via a link on Wikipedia, then all businesses should. Easyid (talk) 12:19, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Basically, the editor wants to remove wikilinks to the American Shakespeare Center (aka Shenandoah Shakespeare) as spam because we removed external links to stauntonhistory.com as spam. I say no way, because of reasons mainly concerning notability. Thoughts? SchuminWeb (Talk) 20:07, 30 March 2009 (UTC)


 * No, basically the matter is this: If one commercial enterprise is going to be allowed on the Staunton, Va., entry -- i.e., the American Shakespeare Center -- then all of them should be. The matter of "notability" is a non-issue. Many Staunton businesses are "notable" in that they've been around a hell of a lot longer than ASC. To allow a link to ASC not only flies in the face of the Wikipedia rules that you yourself quote, but is grossly unfair to other concerns in Staunton that are of equal or more importance.


 * I also removed a link to "The Villages at Staunton" because it, too, is a commerical enterprise concerned solely with the sale of condominiums. You've got to be fair. ASC should remain un-linked in the Staunton entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Easyid (talk • contribs)


 * The issue is not whether or not the link is to a "commercial enterprise"; it is the value that the link adds to the article. StauntonHistory.com offers no obvious value: all of the articles and other material are available only by fee. I have a hunch that I will find most of the articles available at the library in Staunton, Virginia: A Treasury of Historic Tales by Charles Culbertson. However: we do not need an external link to the American Shakespeare Center as it really should be included the arts and culture section. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  20:54, 30 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Temptations to violate WP:AGF aside, it seems pretty clear that mention of ASC is a noteworthy addition to this article. I also agree that the American Shakespeare Center link is merited and the ASC homepage is not, in this context.  No matter what the motivations, I think EasyId's removal of the eternal link was merited, if only for the fact that there is a WP article that suffices to establish the independent notability of ASC.


 * I think that the merits of stauntonhistory.com should be discussed independently of ASC. &mdash;BozoTheScary (talk) 20:35, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

StauntonHistory.com
SchuminWeb and Gadget850 make good points about the contributory nature of the site, but I strongly disagree that the commercial aspect of the site should have any bearing at all on the discussion. I think that it may reasonably used as a reference, pending stronger arguments about it's merits as a reliable source. Despite it's commercial nature, I don't necessarily see why it should be discounted as a potentially valuable source in "External links". Not everyone has access to the Staunton local library and the convenience of web access adds value that the local library doesn't provide. &mdash;BozoTheScary (talk) 20:35, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I gave it another look (didn't take long). There's no obvious way to evaluate the site per WP:RS. In the absence of any way to verify the merits of the source, a cursory objection would seem sufficient to dismiss it as a reliable source. &mdash;BozoTheScary (talk) 20:42, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

According to WHOIS, the site appears to be registered to Charles Culbertson, which is the same name as the author of Staunton Virginia: A Treasury of Historic Tales which is used as a reference three times in this article, and is also the name of a contributor to The News Leader ("Former foes invited to Staunton for reunion"). If it can be demonstrated that the content of stauntonhistory.com is original work by this same person and that he is a genuine historian, does that help at all in considering this site a reliable source? &mdash;BozoTheScary (talk) 21:01, 31 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I looked at the WHOIS yesterday; the registration is not surprising since Culbertson is noted on the home page. The real issues here per External links:
 * 1. Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article.
 * 6. Links to sites that require payment or registration to view the relevant content, unless the site itself is the subject of the article, or the link is a convenience link to a citation.
 * The real question is: how much value does the available content on the site offer?
 * --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  22:07, 31 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks. #6 really clears up yours and SchuminWeb's commerce-based objections.  &mdash;BozoTheScary (talk) 02:48, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

PCSDA
I readded it, if you have a rationale for why it constitutes undue weight please let me know. WikiManOne 13:06, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Deadlinks
There is a link to "Skate Park" under Parks and Recreation, it's a deadlink.

A current link to the Skate Park is: http://www.staunton.va.us/directory/departments-h-z/recreation-parks/parks/action-skate-park-1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by HoneyBear2010 (talk • contribs) 14:47, 23 September 2010 (UTC)


 * That is/was a news source being used as a reference. We generally do not remove dead links being used as references despite their deadness.  Before I add a primary source, I would rather see a secondary source used in that spot.  So I would take no action for now and see if we can't get another secondary source before taking later action.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 19:57, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Why would you want a secondary source, when you can lead someone directly to the information? It's like almost giving them the correct information, but not quite. HoneyBear2010 (talk) 20:13, 23 September 2010 (UTC)


 * See WP:RS. SchuminWeb (Talk) 22:10, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

rfc regarding copy/paste from charlottesville
the first two items below, and a few others, see:

duplication detector output

seem to be copy/paste from an unreliable source:

www.charlottesville-real-estate.com/Staunton_VA_History.html

and the third seems to be a close paraphrase. I have no doubt that the information is true, but this doesn't seem like a reliable source, and also one of the instances was sourced to a dead link at the city of staunton website, although it is also on this charlottesville-area-real-estate.com place.

Anyway, I'd appreciate advice and/or comments. I'm sorry if I'm asking questions with obvious answers, but I'm not sure what to do.

Alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 00:16, 3 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I removed the first two of these, seeing no objections, as they're the most egregious copyvios. The last one seems to have been ripped off from the cville real estate people from this article from the encyclopedia of virginia: encylopedia of virginia staunton during the civil war entry, which is a copyrighted work.  I'll fix the loose paraphrase and remove the copyvio soon unless someone wants to do it first. Alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 16:53, 16 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I have fixed these problems to my satisfaction, anyway. Thanks for your patience. Alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 15:12, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

It is the county seat of Augusta County. The Bureau of Economic Analysis combines the city of Staunton (along with nearby Waynesboro) with Augusta county for statistical purposes.

it was the first city in the world to adopt a city manager form of government, an outgrowth of the Progressive movement, and repeated in many locations since.

During the Civil War, the town became an important Shenandoah Valley manufacturing, staging area and supply depot for the Confederacy. On June 6, 1864, Union Major General David Hunter arrived with 10,000 troops to cut supply, communication and railway lines useful to the rebellion. The next day, they destroyed the railroad station, warehouses, factories and mills. Shops were looted and supplies confiscated. But Hunter spared the rest of the town, which is why so much of Staunton's Federal and Greek Revival architecture survived the war unscathed. It was incorporated in 1871, and through the following decades experienced an economic and building boom.

phil ochs in staunton
to the future: this discussion concerns this edit.

i'm not sure i understand the criteria you're applying for notability and residence. woodrow wilson was born in staunton, but only lived there for about 6 months, yes? maybe you could clarify exactly what you think should count for inclusion in this section so we all know what's going on. also, maybe we should think about changing the name of the section to reflect these criteria. my feeling is that notable + resident = notable resident, but perhaps i'm in the minority here. &mdash; alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 18:36, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd expect anyone who actually called Staunton home should count as a resident, and if they're notable person, than as a notable resident. ~ (The Rebel At) ~ 22:54, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

You make some good points. I'd love to clarify. Wilson, for example, returned to Staunton frequently during his lifetime to visit friends and relatives. Mr. Ochs did not. He spent roughly 18 months in Staunton (two 9-month stints at a local military school), then left never to return. Many, many more famous people -- among them Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson -- spent much more time in Staunton than did Mr. Ochs, and yet are not listed as "notable residents." I really think just passing through Staunton doesn't qualify one for "notable resident" status -- but I'd love to hear other opinions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Easyid (talk • contribs) 00:20, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * yes, ok. i have no idea whether lee and jackson should be listed or not, nor did i know that they'd spent so much time in staunton.  apart from this discussion, can you point me in the direction of that information, because i'd love to read about it.  can you see your way to trying to spell out some a rough rule of thumb for who you think should be considered a resident?  just for comparison, paul gaugin is listed as a resident of Papeari, tahiti, and he only lived there for two years, but it was a notable two years.  i think that, given that ochs wrote a number of songs based on his time in virginia, the cases are parallel.  &mdash; alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 00:53, 29 August 2011 (UTC)


 * a little closer to home, see Charlottesville,_Virginia, where they've listed both edgar allen poe, who went to uva as a student, and also william faulkner, who was writer in residence at uva for two years. it seems that there are some precedents for my view here.  &mdash; alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 14:54, 29 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Ran into the same thing with Roanoke, Virginia. Without guidance from a wiki-lawyer, I ranked the section with "born in", "raised in", and "one-time resident".  This allows the list to accommodate arguably degenerate entries, but provides some framework for perspective.  There are multiple axes of potential nonsense, like duration of residency, actual proximity ("lived near"), and non-notability of residency (i.e. "convalesced here").  With limited resources and unclear guidance, it seemed better to provide a framework for nonsense in perspective than to constantly fight against nigh trivial entries. &mdash;BozoTheScary (talk) 15:24, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I see what you're driving at. The category does kind of need to be renamed, or the precedents changed, but what do we call it? And what precedents do we set? Juliette Gordon Low, founder of the Girl Scouts, attended school in Staunton, but isn't listed as a notable resident. It could get really sticky....Do we exclude anyone who has spent less than three consecutive years living in Staunton? What qualifies as a "resident?" I'm pretty sure I'm not smart enough to figure that one out so that everyone is happy. Maybe I should just put Mr. Ochs back in and leave the whole thing alone.

As for Jackson and Lee, the enormous volume that Bud Robertson wrote back in the late 1990s, I think, tracked Jackson's every move, and it seems he came to Staunton often on business or to visit. He actually "lived" here, I suppose you could say, when he was launching his famous Valley Campaign of 1862 (he lived at the Virginia Hotel). A couple of Lee's daughters attended school in Staunton (Virginia Female Institute, the same one as Juliette Low), so he did a bunch of "stayovers" while his kids were here (they've even preserved the barn he kept Traveler in). After he war he visited Staunton on a number of occasions. I've written about Staunton's history for more than 30 years, so I get this from numerous sources. Sorry I can't pin it down to just one.

Got any thoughts on how to re-word the category to make it reflect it's true content? 147.138.42.206 (talk) 15:21, 29 August 2011 (UTC)


 * my problem is that i can't see a way to rename the section without the criteria, and i can't think of reasonable criteria that will be hard and fast and yet not feel arbitrary (although bozothescary's work on the roanoke article is quite attractive and might be worth emulating here. however, i'm also personally not up for doing that right now).  on the other hand, it occurred to me that it might be a nice compromise to add a sentence to the arts and culture section noting that phil ochs went to school at SMI and that he wrote some songs based on the experience, and then leave him out of the residents.  how does that sound to you all?  p.s. thanks for the info on lee and jackson.  i'm just interested personally, and wasn't trying to pin you down on anything. &mdash; alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 15:46, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

You're right -- it could get to be a problem. But I like your idea about the compromise sentence regarding Ochs. I'll work on that when I get a little more time, run it up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes it. And as for Lee and Jackson -- I share your interest in these guys. They are endlessly fascinating to study! Easyid (talk) 15:04, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
 * excellent. i am currently in a location without a reasonable library, but i will be back to civilization soon.  i can't seem to find the sources i need online vis a vis the songs being inspired by his stay in staunton (i mean, it's clear from the songs, but that's not enough), so if i don't see something from you before then, i'll slap something together.  &mdash; alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 15:51, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
 * ok, i'm going to throw a couple of sentences about phil ochs into the arts and culture section, and you all let me know what you think. &mdash; alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 21:01, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

rfc regarding consolidated coal paragraph
the reference for this paragraph:

Staunton played a peculiar role in African American history as the site from which the Consolidation Coal Company of Iowa hired large numbers of African American workers as strike breakers in 1880. Hiring large numbers of African Americans as industrial laborers was, at the time, unprecedented. This move proved a success, and for years to come, Consolidation's workforce and mining camps were dominated by an African American majority.

seems to have absolutely nothing to do with the information in the paragraph. It seems to be about an election problem in South Carolina. this same information and same reference is repeated in the article on Consolidation Coal Company (Iowa). I'm unsure what to do about this. Delete paragraph? Delete reference? Something else? Alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 05:14, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

okey dokey, I tagged the parts of the paragraph with the reasons they're bothering me. Alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 01:10, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

I deleted this, but am leaving it here in case anyone can find an actual source for it. Alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 16:46, 16 August 2011 (UTC)


 * The link was defective. This is the correct citation -- The case of Cook v. Cutts was in the same volume, the page number in the original link was wrong.  The link given above correctly cites the case with the discussion of the import of large numbers of African American miners from Staunton to Iowa.Douglas W. Jones (talk) 02:47, 28 September 2011 (UTC)


 * if that's the actual link, then it seems really, really clear to me that sourcing that statement to it is improper synthesis, and i think that the paragraph ought to stay out of the article. it's possible that there's a sentence to write that could be sourced to that without doing original research, but i can't for the life of me see what it would be. &mdash; alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 03:02, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

There is a Wal-Mart
Not that it really matters, but there is a Wal-Mart is Staunton. But I don't think that it takes away from any of its charm. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SkeeloBob (talk • contribs).


 * Yeah. I heard they're known for their southern charm and hospitality, from reading the News Leader, even though I'm not a resident I've been reading it online. Pink moon 1287 (email&bull;talk&bull;user) 14:45, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It does matter. Wal-Mart has had a negative effect on the small businesses of Staunton, just as it has hurt the rest of small businesses across the nation. 206.16.32.135 16:00, 1 August 2007 (UTC)


 * There is a Walmart, actually I think it was one of the earlier Super Walmarts, but its also not "in town" as in the historic and walkable downtown. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.21.194.51 (talk) 18:37, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Flag / Coat of arms
Perhaps it would be appropriate to include an image of the city's flag and coat of arms, as shown in section 1.05.160 in the Staunton City Code, here: http://www.codepublishing.com/VA/staunton.html intooblv (talk) 20:23, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The infobox supports the seal and flag. I would think there would be a color version, but I can't recall seeing this in use in Staunton. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 11:33, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Some 'editorial' info added?
I recently visited this city/town. The streets are beautiful, very 'small town in the mountains' kind of feel. I feel this should be mentioned in the description. There are no Wal-Marts, etc... it is has a very local-boutique feel to it. Would this information be opinionated an inappropriate for inclusion among the entry?


 * Well, it *is* a small-ish city (compared to other populations) in the mountains. However, I'm not sure if saying that it's beautiful could be considered NPOV. --Takeel 14:18, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Staunton is also a nice play to raise a family.AnniebellaSmiles (talk) 01:04, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

the villages at staunton
Does anyone feel strongly about keeping this sentence: The site is now a mixed-use neighborhood called The Villages at Staunton. The first building that was renovated was The Bindery, which holds residential condos. The development team consisted of Frazier Associates of Staunton, Folsom Group of Charlottesville, Miller & Associates of Richmond, and The Arcadia Land Company of Wayne, Pennsylvania.<:ref name=commits> It seems excessively promotional in nature, and lends undue weight to this condo project, which doesn't strike me as very important in the vast scheme of things. I can see why it might be nice to mention briefly that the old prison is now condos, but who really cares what they're called and especially who every last one of the developers was?&mdash; alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 23:50, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Seeing no objection after 6 days I went ahead and edited the paragraph down to include only what seems to me to be the essential information