Talk:Stay-at-home dad/Archive 1

Heteronormative
Heteronormative? Who the heck thinks this is about sexual orientation? The SAHDs that I regularly read tend to be aware of issues that all "at-home parents" face. Let's just call these folks at-home parents, shall we? That'll avoid any concern of who's gay and who is not when it comes to having kids. If we want an article about "gay parenting" then let's create one, shall we, and not try to turn this into that. (added: Oh look!  We do have one at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_parenting -- go edit there if you want to address what makes gay at-home fathers different than nongay ones.) -- kctipton 19:21, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Who allowed the heteronormative label to be appended to this article? At the very least, please place irrelevant and misguided labels like that one to appear at the end of the article, not sitting in all their fatuousness at the head of an otherwise balanced article.

I'm thinking the person probably found it to be heteronormative because the tone of the article suggests that all families have a female parent and a male parent. This was the first thing that jumped out at me about the article. I'm going to edit it to reflect a more inclusive view though instead of putting the tag back on. Triangular 21:43, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Consistency
There needs to be a consistent use of either "stay at home dad", "Stay at home dad", "Stay at Home Dad" or what not. Varying from line to line is very informal. --70.30.59.2 00:21, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Not to mention the complete lack of references 137.138.46.155 15:08, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Then please use the tag. --Zslevi 10:42, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Copyediting needed
I would like to edit for grammatical correctness the sentence that currently reads, "In recent years, stay-at-home dads are becoming more common and accepted." The grammatical trouble I see is that the tenses of "are becoming" and "In recent years" don't match. I haven't been bold and made the edit because I recognize this is a sensitive topic, and some might see me suggested change as subtly introducing a subjective POV regarding the subject. My suggestion is, "In recent years, stay-at-home dads have become more common and accepted." I regret this text might seem to imply these changes are not continuing. Does their continuance deserve explicit mention, i.e. in a follow-on sentence? (N.B. there are plenty of other problems with this paragraph -- even with this same sentence. I'm willing to work on improving it slowly and incrementally.) Sdsds 05:04, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


 * This whole thing needs grammatical work. In addition to the inconsistent labeling, it is inconsistent in tense and number.  This needs a liberal amount of editing.Bekhardt 21:59, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Statistics wrong...
Hey guys. Theres gotta be something wrong with the statistics on this article. I'm not even sure they should be there, but since the article discusses the low number of stay at home dads extensively I'm loathe to remove it. But it says there are 2.9 million children being raised by stay at home dads, and 159,000 stay at home dads. That works out to 18.23 kids per father. Also, figures need to be cited. EagleFalconn (talk) 18:11, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Denastroje (talk) 22:30, 7 July 2009 (UTC)The statistics given (I've done some research on them) are only statistics from the United States, and only account for father's who are currently married. According to the US Census Bureau, that is the only statistical information provided for stay-at-home dads.

explanation
Per User:Piotrus's request, I'll explain my edits to the students involved with editing this article. Summary of what I've done: --Cybercobra (talk) 22:49, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Changed most of the citations to use the citation templates
 * 2) Fixed capitalization of the section titles per Wikipedia's Manual of Style
 * 3) Moved material to the "Stereotypes/Costs" section from the housewife article
 * 4) Retitled "Why Dad and Not Mom?", as that does not have encyclopedic tone, it sounded more like an essay or newspaper story section title.
 * 5) Moved "History of the Homemaker Role" to the homemaker article

Educational Project Editing
Here is a general outline of what we plan to accomplish, as a group, concerning the topic "Stay-at-home dads"
 * The term stay-at home Dad

This will be a short section explaining the common abbreviation (SAHD) so that we may use it later in the article, and the term "househusband" which was the common title given to this role prior to Stay-at-Home Dad became the standard.
 * History of Women's Role in the Family

This section will delve into the gender roles and stereotypes that have been present within American society throughout history. We will discuss why these stereotypes originated, in regards to typical women's roles in society and the family.
 * The Evolution of Family Roles

This section will look deeper into the industrial revolution and the changed that occurred within the family structure as a result of it. Father's role in the family change and was becoming increasingly less influential (do to their long hours away from home). We will also look at what the"ideal family" was during this time.
 * The Rise of the Stay-at-Home Dad

This section will begin with the late 1970's where American culture begins to see a shift in parental roles. The "breadwinning" males were getting laid off and economic times were rough. This plays into the societal changes due to the Women's Movement's. These historical happenings had an effect on the family and increased the father's role within the family unit. More women were entering the work force, while males were loosing their jobs thus forcing them (at times) to stay at home and take over the mother's role, while she went to work and earned money for the family. This began to alter the typical gender roles within a family.
 * Why Dad and Not Mom?

This section will discuss common reasons a family decides to have the father stay home with the children while the mother goes out and earns a living for the family. I have already added some of this in, however it will be more defined in structure.
 * Stereotypes/Costs

This section will talk about some of the false assumptions centered on this group of people, being that stereotypes are a major hurdle for this men to overcome. It will also focus on what men have to give up in order to assume this role in the family. We will also look at some of the common concerns of these men (ie: loosing professional ability or attraction).
 * Benefits

This section will cover the benefits of having a stay-at-home dad. There are a lot of studies which suggest the importance of the paternal bond (at times over the maternal) and illustrate how beneficial this type of structure can be to both the children as well as the family. We will also touch upon the typical male parenting style and the benefits that accompany it.
 * Resources for Stay-at-Home Dads

I have already added some books to the "book" section, but this will be more along the lines of websites as well as publications one could subscribe to. This will give stay-at-home dads a place to look for help, ideas, and support.


 * General Editing/Distribution of Tasks

Considering this article had already been started prior to our involvement, there is a lot of "clean up" necessary. Some of it has already been started, but there is still more work to do in that area. This is a general outline of what we will focus on, we may add to it or subtract from it as more information becomes available. There are also some books/TV Shows/Movies that have been brought to my attention by way of research that will be added as well. The four of us in the group will continue to add information to all of the sections as it becomes available. As of yet, we have not delegated specific tasks within the article, but if we decide to do so we will let you know. As of now, we are all just working together to find information and add it to the article. Denastroje (talk) 20:38, 14 July 2009 (UTC)Denastroje


 * That's a good plan of work. See if the content that was here is salvageable, you are more than welcome to incorporate it into your expanded version. Some observations based on the state the article is as of this moment: When adding inline citations, remember that each sentence should have a citation (since people may insert other sentences in a paragraph; hence you want to make sure that it is clear which source is used to back up what sentence). References should be described - http addresses are not very informative (see WP:CITE). Try to keep a good density of internal hyperlinks per Linking. You'll also want to format your headings per this manual of style (avoide excessive capitalization and a/an/the). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 22:44, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It's high time for you to nominate your article for GA. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:40, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Further suggestions
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 23:41, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at Lead. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article
 * Consider adding more links to the article; per Manual of Style (links) and Build the web, create links to relevant articles.
 * Per WP:WIAFA, this article's table of contents (ToC) may be too long – consider shrinking it down by merging short sections or using a proper system of daughter pages as per Summary style.
 * There are a few occurrences of weasel words in this article- please observe WP:AWT. Certain phrases, such as it has been should specify exactly who supports, considers, believes, etc., such a view.
 * Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
 * Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “ All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.”
 * Avoid contractions, such as doesn't, if these are outside of quotations, they should be expanded.
 * As done in WP:FOOTNOTE, footnotes usually are located right after a punctuation mark (as recommended by the CMS, but not mandatory), such that there is no space in between. For example, the sun is larger than the moon [2]. is usually written as the sun is larger than the moon.[2]

Good Article Edits
We appreciate all the feedback and my group members and I are working on getting everything up to par. Laura has already made some edits and we are getting together as a group tomorrow to spend time on ensuring our article meets "good article" status. We will post any comments/questions we have. Denastroje (talk) 01:08, 28 July 2009 (UTC)Denastroje
 * I've been kinda following this class project. While you guys may or may not pass the GA criteria (this is up to the reviewer and no one else), you can still leave behind a very nice article.  I have two suggestions to increase the quality quickly.  One, just totally remove stuff that doesn't have a reference (Mr. Mom, Mighty Ducks, etc.).  Everything needs a ref, so their are two options, do a bunch of research and find a ref, or just remove the text.  Two, use the references you already have.  You've already read them, so using them will be much faster than finding a new ref.  Don't copy and paste (obviously), but check to see if you've gotten all the information out of each ref that you can.  If there's more, you can add it. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 05:01, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * IMDB isn't a reliable source, and shouldn't be used to cite stuff. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs)- 21:34, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Some could also say that about Wikipedia, the points that I am referencing from the IMDB website I know to be accurate for the few films which are used as I had to watch pieces of the film to figure it out. There are sections of the International Movie Data Base that are accessible to the public, such as the commenting sections or assigning of credits, these were not used in our data collection. However, I will attempt to find the correct way to cite the actual DVD of the movie in which these points are discussed in the special features.--Brunzy03 (talk) 01:28, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Additional Citations have been added for the movies in question.--Brunzy03 (talk) 02:08, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Stay-at-home dad tags
After reading information centered on wikipedia writing style, I feel as though I've made the page less "essay-like". I did not want to delete the tag, until I had some feedback, so if anyone could give a second opinion it would be appreciated. Furthermore, I am working on adding some information about other countries in attempts to address the "worldwide view" tag. Denastroje (talk) 14:37, 29 July 2009 (UTC)Denastroje
 * You may want to ask the user(s) who added the tag(s) to revisit the article and comment here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:30, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That would be User:Cybercobra and User:Shubinator. Try their talk pages. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:48, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Problem
I am unable to add anything else to the lead. It keeps deleting things, or not posting what i've added. At this point, I am going to have to stop working on the article. We've done the best we can and appreciate everyone's help. Thanks for everything!! We have finals to study for and this is consuming too much of my time and energy at this point!! Wish us luck!! Denastroje (talk) 22:50, 29 July 2009 (UTC)Denastroje

Remaining issues
These are (hopefully) the last issues to be dealt with to achieve GA status.
 * 1) Expand / improve lead
 * 2) Deal with essay tag
 * I wrote on the person's page, who initially put the tag up, and I am awaiting a reply from him.Denastroje (talk) 20:21, 29 July 2009 (UTC)Denastroje

Keep up the good work - you're almost there! Nikkimaria (talk) 18:17, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Continue to expand worldview. In particular, consider nations where stay-at-home dads are not/less accepted (most Asian nations, most Muslim nations). Evaluate why that is, as much as possible.
 * 2) Expand "Disadvantages" to deal with mother, child + father
 * 3) Place citations throughout paragraphs rather than just at the end
 * 4) Find citations for the claims at the start of the entertainment section


 * Good job guys! Nikkimaria, thank you for your help! --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 02:55, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Pop Culture Tag
We have made an attempt to further explain why it is important to have the popular culture section and will be deleting that tag now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brunzy03 (talk • contribs) 17:09, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Why was the "Comic" Subsection removed from Popular Culture? See --Allen Hobby (talk) 13:56, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

individuals´reports
An interesting link about a personal yet perhaps typical experience of a stay-at-home-dad: Could such a report be worth adding to external links? --87.174.6.24 (talk) 10:35, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Male Bonding (Or How Dad Lost 30 Pounds), Aron Word, New York Times, Oct. 18 2008

The picture...
Sure looks like the guy isn't at home, but rather outside. Otherwise he would probably not be carrying both children around. Maybe a picture of a guy who is at home in the picture? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.234.123.137 (talk) 01:33, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Class bias
I was a main carer father twenty years ago and for many of the reasons mentioned - economic, preference etc. This article is assuming so much though - that parents are 'saving for university' for instance. There are a whole range of economic drivers for fathers being the main carers. In some areas of the UK, for instance, when the coal mines closed the jobs for men evaporated leaving women as the breadwinners.

YellowFratello (talk) 08:13, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Neutrality
I marked the neutrality section as fixed, I took a look at the bias word section which offered suggestions to avoided any words like: claimed, alleged, supposed. These type of words cast doubt on the accuracy of our information and wherever I encountered this, I changed it. -Brunzy03 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brunzy03 (talk • contribs) 21:31, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

The word "evolved" in the sentence "as families have evolved" seems extremely biased to me. Personally I'm all for stay at home dads, it sounds like a fun job, but using the word "evolved" is not neutral and this is supposed to be an encyclopaedia not a propaganda vehicle so maybe we could use a less positive and more neutral word(s) than "evolved", say maybe "changed" or "changed over time"?

And before anyone says it I know that that is what evolution means and that it doesn't technically mean progress, but colloquially that is how it is used and it seems to imply that this type of family unit is somehow better or more advanced than the more traditional stay at home mother variety and that kind of value judgement is not supposed to be part of a real encyclopaedia.

Let's try and keep sure that Wikipedia doesn't end up as a left liberal version of conservapedia please!!!!

Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.126.25.46 (talk) 20:26, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Wow...
Feminists are turning the world against the concept of housewives, yet househusbands are acceptable now? Pathetic. Political "correctness" and feminism are truly fucking up society. - 190.139.44.10 (talk) 18:38, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

That is incorrect, anon. Please peruse some feminism books, articles, blogs, etc. The goal is to allow men & women alike to stay at home and raise kids, or to be career-hounds, without shame. Ninestraycats (talk) 15:23, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

^That seems to assume that both sexes are equally equipped to be either care givers or workers, which ignores the entire argument about natural differences between the sexes and doesn't take into account the possibility that traditional gender roles had developed because they reflected a biological fact not just a subjective cultural preference and that perhaps because of this the modern trend in sexual equality in all areas is misguided.

ninestraycats maybe you should peruse some books on conservatism or socio-biology?

You're all as bad as each other, neither side ever seems to consider the possibility that the other could be right! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.126.25.46 (talk) 20:36, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

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Removed pay gap note
The disadvantage to men "lower income from pay gap" note was removed because the citation had no reference to any pay gap, and the gender pay gap is very likely, at least in part, caused by women being statistically more likely to take significant time off of work to care for children, so in an arrangement where a father is the stay at home parent, this same effect cannot be assumed to also be present without further study being done. Meton magis (talk) 06:53, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

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