Talk:Steampunk/Archive 12

Ada Lovelace's Analytical Engine?
I've removed the reference to Ada Lovelace from the sentence in the lede mentioning Babbage's Analytical Engine. While she arguably made many contributions to the development of programmable computers, the sources I've found show her involvement with the Engine began after it was developed—crediting her with its creation (or as co-creator) would seem to require citation of several reliable sources.

Thoughts, anyone? &mdash; UncleBubba ( T @ C ) 12:55, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
 * This is the steampunk article. Whether historically accurate or not, she's as significant (and probably more so) than Babbage, within the steampunk context.
 * As to her involvement with the analytical engine, I think you may be confusing the analytical and the difference engines. The analytical was infamously never "developed" or even completed. Lovelace's involvement with it was also quite early on, although this did involve the software aspect much more than the hardware. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:11, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Dune
Why is there no homage in this article paid to the 1984 science fiction classic: "Dune"? It was Dune that first introduced -- onto the 'big screen' -- the concept of steam power being used thousands of years into the future. And it did this almost 3 decades ago. Long before many of today's 'steampunk' aficionados were even born.

Ah but therein lies the rub. With Generation-X or -Y or w/e, if they didn't think of it, it didn't exist.

--Atikokan (talk) 05:13, 11 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Dune is not steampunk. There is steam technology in Dune, but that in and of itself doesn't make the film steampunk. Most of the machines do not run on steam, and there is little or no steampunk aesthetic evident.
 * And I'm not Gen-X or -Y. I'm a boomer; I predate steampunk. :) --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 08:44, 11 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Being Gen-X means I'm old enough to have seen "Dune" in the theater, and to have read the book beforehand. As Jonnybgoode44 (talk) notes, steam alone does not steampunk make.  Aesthetic aside, there is also no effort on Herbert's part at retrofuturism, loosely or tightly.   Holzman-Tweed (talk) 12:04, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Planned rewrite of steampunk music section
I'm finally back online with my own PC, after a few months of having to borrow someone else's. First order of business, I'm going to take a stab at rewriting the steampunk music section, as it has become a hopeless mess compared to what it was originally intended to be. Any assistance or suggestions will be appreciated. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 05:01, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, after taking a look at it, the rewrite I would suggest would be simply removing the third paragraph entirely. It was originally intended to be a descriptive spectrum, "from A to B", but has become a catch-all for people posting whatever band they were into. Individual steampunk bands are listed on the "List of steampunk works" page; they don't all need to be here as well. Comments? --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 19:29, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Ok, since apparently nobody had any objections, I removed all the band adverts in the third paragraph and just used it as a paragraph to show the broad spectrum of musical styles, as I believe it was originally intended to do. I left the references in, however. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 04:54, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Looks good. I think the music section is a good overview, though I wonder if it's worth putting in a link to the music section of List of Steampunk Works in there since the link in Media might be missed, causing people to start adding bands in again. The TV section could do with a hefty purge too. ~ Brother William (talk) 23:38, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I personally don't have a problem with redundant links, and it's probably a good idea, but I don't know what WP's policy is on it. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 02:13, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Remove "Post-Apocalyptic"
The article says "Steampunk works are often set ...in a post-apocalyptic future during which steam power has regained mainstream use" but cites only one work out of hundreds that is set in a post-apocalyptic future. I suggest rewriting the intro to remove that line and adjust the intro to be in line with the description of steampunk in the "List_of_steampunk_works" page, whose description seems more accurate to me. --71.5.114.98 (talk) 00:49, 13 March 2014 (UTC)celia
 * I assume you're referring to Future Boy Conan as the one reference to post-apocalyptic?
 * I would rather add one or two more examples to establish the fact. One just off the top of my head: Abney Park's music and book series are set in a post-apocalyptic future. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 02:27, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Cheryl Priest's books are set in a post-apocalyptic future from the perspective of someone living in the 1860s. Holzman-Tweed (talk) 04:34, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
 * That would be the Boneshaker novels?
 * Well that would be three examples then. A minor rewrite of that section adding them should suffice, I should think. Objections? --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 06:26, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Minor rewrite sounds good to me! But 3 examples still doesn't constitute "often" to me. I wouldn't even care but I got in an argument with someone who insisted that most steampunk is set in an post-apocalyptic setting.  In actuality it is relatively uncommon. 71.5.114.98 (talk) 16:35, 13 March 2014 (UTC)celia
 * In literature, it may not be the most common, but there is quite a bit of it. The Peshawar Lancers by S.M. Stirling, Terminal World by Alastair Reynolds, a Google search turns up several others. The movie 9, which might be better classified as "stitchpunk" but had a large influence on steampunk, is also set in a post-apocalyptic world. Mary Shelley's The Last Man, about a post-apocalyptic world near the end of the 21st century, was probably the ancestor of post-apocalyptic steampunk literature.
 * In the fashion arena you see it a lot. The aforementioned Abney Park's look is post-apocalyptic, and since they are the biggest steampunk musical act they have a lot of influence. Several of Captain Robert's accessories (such as his wristbands) were designed by Thomas Willeford of Brute Force Studios. Kate "Kato" Lambert's "Steampunk Couture" fashion line is also very post-apocalyptic. It's not "relatively uncommon"; it's very much a mainstream part of today's steampunk. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 18:24, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

New section: Post-apocalyptic
I started a new section for post-apocalyptic media, per the above discussion. Please feel free to assist with references, etc. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 20:20, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Oldest Use of term in title?
The article as it stands says Paul Di Filippo's 1995 Steampunk Trilogy was the first title to use the term steampunk. However, the role playing game Castle Falkenstein (by Mike Pondsmith, from R. Talsorian Games) specifically uses the term as well and it came out in 1994.

I'd just make the change but want to discuss if an RPG would be considered 'first title' or if it should have a separate entry.

2602:301:77C8:4A30:3482:85:AED8:8EA9 (talk) 17:11, 4 December 2013 (UTC)Kirk


 * Castle Falkenstein may use the term, but "Steampunk" isn't in the game's title. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 00:50, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Steampunk fashion: A new section needed?
In rewriting the above section, I noticed another oddity with the page as it currently exists. The section "Art, fashion and design" does not mention fashion at all. However, there is a paragraph about steampunk fashion further down on the page, under "Culture and community", and several photos on the page depicting fashion, scattered throughout. I propose "fashion" be calved off from "Art and design" into a new section, the wayward paragraph moved there, and then that section can possibly be expanded. And possibly one or two of the photos moved there. (I also noticed no discussion of either the Weird West or Post-Apocalyptic styles in the paragraph, which are both very popular in steampunk fashion, especially on the US west coast.) Discuss? --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 10:12, 22 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Since nobody had any negative feedback on this (or any feedback on it whatsoever), I'm going to start working on it. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 03:42, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Image clutter
There's a LOT of images cluttering up the page. Can we lose the "Dr. Beulenpest character and leather mask by Tom Banwell" and "A steampunk couple at Carnevale 2012 in Boise, Idaho" photos? They're not altogether representative of steampunk fashion as a whole (and the Boise photo is a bit on the creepy side, lol).

Also wondering about removing the "Wave Gotik Treffen Leipzig/Germany Alexander Schlesier" photo, as we already have a robot arm pic. I'd say remove the Falksen photo, but I think that would be considered outright heresy by some in the steampunk community and that's a battle I really don't want to fight!

I would however like to add a photo of Kate Lambert (Steampunk Couture/SteamGirl) as an example of post-apocalyptic/tribal influences in steampunk fashion. I know Kato personally, I'm sure I can get her permission for one.

Also, while the Paris metro station pic is cool, it isn't mentioned in the article anywhere. It should either be mentioned, or the photo removed; I'd prefer the former, if someone would like to find a mention of it somewhere as being steampunk.

The "Spider sculpture by Daniel Proulx" photo should be moved up to the art section, but I'm holding off on that until some of the other clutter gets taken care of as there's already a lot of stuff in that region of the article. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 10:34, 29 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Aaaaaand, people are just adding more images. I'm going to start culling images since no one's objected. I'd like to move the extra images to Commons, but I'm not familiar with the best way to do that... Some help would be appreciated. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 19:47, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Ok, I removed a couple of images that were already in Commons. And reordered the images in the Art and design section. I'll leave the rest be for now, and see what happens. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 20:30, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

What goes here vs. what goes in the List of Steampunk Works
The Steampunk article is not the place to say "The thing is Steampunk!" as a standalone statement that does not connect to the rest of the article in an encyclopedic manner. Such things belong in List of steampunk works. Holzman-Tweed (talk) 19:29, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Expand American West section.
Some of the following has already been lightly touched upon, but I think more detail is due to display greater depth of the topic.

Television in this genre includes the series, The Wild Wild West (1965-1969) and two follow up television movies, The Wild Wild West Revisited (1979) and More Wild Wild West (1980). The large screen film, Wild Wild West, starred Will Smith and Kevin Kline. Examples of printed graphic literature include The Wild Wild West (1966), The Night of the Iron Tyrants (1990), and Far West. Digital graphic literature includes DC Comics' High Moon and Jonah Hex. Thank you for your time, Wordreader (talk) 19:28, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

David Lynch's Dune?
Surely the imagery of David Lynch's film version of Dune is "steam punk" style as well, particularly the Harkonans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.161.78.193 (talk) 05:21, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Not really. The mere fact that a thing references similar visual cues to those referenced by Steampunk does not make a thing Steampunk.  Dune is futurist, not retrofuturist.  It has parallels to historical events because Frank Herbert based the series on certain colonialist conflicts for control of the Middle, and those verbal cues are a reference to that.Holzman-Tweed (talk) 05:37, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Also Firefly or Serenity?
Wouldn't be Firefly a kind of steampunk? Not exactly using steam, but sort of. ※ Sobreira ◣◥ (parlez) 19:40, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
 * In general, no. There are a number of their worlds that are at different levels of technological, cultural, and social development, but the series as a whole is not terribly steampunk, IMO. Centerone (talk) 23:27, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Agree with Centerone. If merely having steam powered things made a thing Steampunk, there'd be a whole bunch of non-fictional history that qualified.  Firefly is futurist and post-apocalyptic, but not retrofuturist and thus not Steampunk.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Holzman-tweed (talk • contribs) 05:39, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Origin of the term - Seems to be?
Why does the origin of the term section state: "It seems to have been coined by science fiction author K. W. Jeter," Why "SEEMS to have been" rather than just "was coined by"? As far as I know, nobody else claims to have coined the term and we have a referenced quote. Why do we need to inject uncertainty and doubt when we have the earliest known reference for the term, and the context within which it was created? Centerone (talk) 14:20, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't recall why I used that phrasing. Feel free to update it. Holzman-Tweed (talk) 14:24, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Keep it encyclopedic
This article is not the place for standalone statements of the form "The thing happened on this date and is steampunk. Such statements should be listed in List of steampunk works.  If you're going to mention it here, please explain how the thing is linked to the rest of Steampunk such that it makes sense to talk about it in the encyclopedic narrative.Holzman-Tweed (talk) 16:25, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Film
"Those Fantastic Flying Fools" (1967) imagines a Victorian-era attempt to fly to the moon. Among its set pieces is a Gothic Revival rocket (moon ship). SEE http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0062363/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.18.14.220 (talk) 17:25, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

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Semi-protected
I've semi-protected the page, as the IP editor has promised to continue his or her disruptive edits. --jpgordon:==( o ) 20:40, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Good call. Samsara 21:09, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

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This Is Steampunk Because Why?
What makes the photo, "A steampunk horror costume," actually steampunk? The goggles? Is anything with a pair of goggles now defacto steampunk? I would suggest two changes, first remove the photo and second the category, "Fantasy and horror" doesn't actually talk about horror at all. It talks about Gaslight Romance, which seems a much better title. I'll wait a while to see if anyone feels strongly about these changes, but we can only improve this article with editing. I wish to be bold. Xenomorph erotica (talk) 14:09, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I am curious about the sentence, "Many of the visualisations of steampunk have their origins with, among others, Walt Disney's film 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea (1954),[19] including the design of the story's submarine the Nautilus, its interiors, and the crew's underwater gear." I know Jules Verne gets cited as one of the fathers of steampunk but it is never stated what elements of his work (versus Disney's) reflect this. Clearly it isn't his vision of the Nautilus, since (and I'm quoting its wiki page): "Electricity provided by sodium/mercury batteries (with the sodium provided by extraction from seawater) is the craft's primary power source for propulsion." As far as I can tell, at no point did Verne suggest that steam-engines were what made the boat go and yet somehow the Nautilus is soooo steampunk that I'm not sure on what grounds I might challenge or call into question this assumption except to say that Walt is the real steampunk forefather. I know this page has an illustration, "Original illustration of Jules Verne's Nautilus engine room" and, yes, it does feature two large gears and some curious gargoyle spouts but how is this steampunk? Or does this just fall under rule of cool and we're not suppose to question it? Xenomorph erotica (talk) 21:43, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
 * There is almost no steam in steampunk. There is far more electricity, albeit from the complicated Edwardian era of exposed knife switches and bare busbars. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:59, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Photos That Only Vaguely Connect With This Article
I understand it's exciting to use photos in an article, especially random cosplayers who graciously allow their images to be used. And yet, of the following five photos:

A steampunk horror costume A steampunk couple at Carnevale 2012 in Boise, Idaho "Wave Gotik Treffen" Leipzig/Germany Alexander Schlesier Spider sculpture by Daniel Proulx Arliss Loveless character in steampunk wheelchair costume from the film Wild Wild West None of the supporting text explains why they are included here, why they're important to this article, or why we should keep them. What does "Wave Gotik Treffen" even mean? Why is Proulx's sculpture important? I personally know why Loveless' wheelchair is considered Retrofuturism but the article doesn't explain that. I don't find these images helpful, and since Wikipedia seems to have decided steampunk is an umbrella term that can cover huge swaths of science fiction (Yes, Dr. Who might have had one or two episodes that referenced steampunk but is that noteworthy? Yes, there is a gizmo in the TARDIS that goes up and down but is everything that references a piston now steampunk?) it just makes this article a jumble and a mess. I would vote to remove them and have someone who isn't invested in the term "this is also steampunk" edit this all. I don't mind being bold but just working through the archives it's clear that a lot of people feel very strongly about what makes up this genre. Xenomorph erotica (talk) 14:43, 16 June 2016 (UTC)


 * I agree with you except for the last 2 images you named which I find appropriate. "Wave Gotik Treffen" (German) means "Wave Gotik meetup" (not sure how that image relates to it though). I think these images are featured because of the lack of alternatives because artists apparently have no interest in or aren't properly informed about uploading their material to Wikipedia and Wikipedia editors being too lazy / busy for or aren't informed about finding appropriately licensed material on the net or asking (e.g. via email) artists for the publication of their works on Wikipedia. I guess you can help by simply getting a hold of better images and boldly replacing those (please do). --Fixuture (talk) 19:21, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

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