Talk:Steampunk/Archive 2

The opposite of Steampunk?
While steampunk mostly is about the victorian era surrounded by advanced technology based on the technology already present (like steam based technology), it is possible to create an opposite world.

We can imagine a world in the future surrounded by technology much more advanced than what is available today, but the people lives like in the 18'th century. The society is based on bio- and nano technology that have fused together, creating inventions and helping tools that a much more like living organisms than machines. Instead of horses they have organic cars or vehicles with legs. Instead of animals, the farmers are growing the meat in tanks (in vitro meat). Instead of surveillance cameras they have artificial intelligence connected to each others and with organic eyes different places in the society. Instead of electricity they have houses of "flesh", which reminds about a living organism, giving them gas to cook food with, heat from metabolism, organic light instead of light bulbs and so on. The houses gets all their energy from an advanced plumbing system, providing the house with liquid nutrients and removing its waste. Most products are grown inside buildings that reminds more about farms than factories.

Most of the energy in the society comes from algae or plants that feeds in solar power, or maybe from somewhere else.

The major difference would be the fact that the humans used very little mechanics (instead they are using morphers where it is essential) because of the advanced nano/bio technology and no electricity at all (except from the neural impulses inside the living network of artificial (real?) intelligence based on ganglions/genetically modified nerves, used to connect the inhabitants with each others, even if the network itself gets the energy from liqued nutrients, just as a real brain). And very little metal. Instead we would have buildings and vehicles covered with living tissue like skin or cuticula/chitin. Or, nanomachins could build diamondlike materials (What Eric Drexler calls "The Diamond Age). "Using a kind of diamond fibers, materials can be created which are almost unbreakable and have a strength/weight factor fifty times greater than the strongest conventional materials. Imagine decreasing the dry weight of planes and spacevehicles some fifty times. This will re-open the possibility for cheap and simple one-person airplane or even one-person spacevehicles. There have been estimates of a car weighing only 10 kilograms and a spacevehicle with a dry weight of 50 kilograms. Of course a car of such small weight will have to carry balast to avoid being blown away by a mere gust of wind." Could it be these which are the so-called diamonoids?

Outside of Steampunk
What people have forgotten to add (which I have carefully taken the opportunity of contributing) is that anything outside of Steampunk i.e. post 1930's which uses the technology of the combustible engine and fuel would be recognised as Dieselpunk. Films such as Sky Captain, Batman, The Shadow, Lemony Snicket, The Mummy and The Mummy Returns should perhaps be moved to a film list for that particular genre which incorporates elements from Steampunk and Atomicpunk i.e. pre-Cold War era combining both World Wars examples: War of the Worlds, The Day the Earth Stood Still, Flash Gordon, Day of the Triffids, Night of the Living Dead and so on...

So basically Dieselpunk is an alternate future where the ideas and designs of the early 30's influenced the world exemplified with the boom in skyscrapers, gothic architecture, the autmobile, automatic machinery and so on. Tim Burton is typical for using imagery relating to 'dieselpunk' themes.

So there should be a reference here to the other genre. I am already working on the other punk genre pages trying to accumulate enough info and data for the empty ones. Any help is appreciated of course. Piecraft 21:33, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

BTW why does Sandalpunk redirect to the Steampunk page? I can understand Clockpunk, but Sandalpunk should have its own definition.

Sky Captain
I thought movies like Sky Captain and the World of tomorrow already was an own genre called retro sci-fi?


 * It's called futurology, i think. NorkNork 17:39, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Sorry, retro-futurism is more accurate in this case, but it's based on futurology. NorkNork 17:49, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Personally I would have said Sky Captain comes under the pulp genre. I how much more Doc Savage can you get? --Brother William 10:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, thanks for the answear. Then there already is a name for it.

It's also called pulp. like flash gordon, weird science stories etc.

whoever came up with "dieselpunk" should wake up.

Are these films Steampunk?
Someone added films like Nausicaa, and the Shanghai Knights movies, and a few others to the list of films (I think Brotherhood of the Wolf was also there).

Are these steampunk?

I'm hesitant to remove them as I haven't seen them, so can not make an accurate assessment, but, based on what I have seen, some of them, like the Shanghai Knights movies are anachronistic, but do not involve any steam technology. Gnrlotto 20:15, 7 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I added Nausicaa, Young Sherlock Holmes, and Sherlock Hound. Nausicaa is set in an Imperialistic society that utilizes steampunk style technology. Young Sherlock Holmes featured a number of Steampunk elements, including an ornithoptor. Sherlock Hound featured a Moriarty that had a new steampunk gadget or vehicle in every episode.


 * I disagree; Nausicaa is probably the only Miyazaki movie which isn't Steampunk. I'd remove it, but if I started cutting things I'd be here all night. Jberkus 06:22, 14 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I think you need to watch more Miyazaki. My Neighbor Totoro, has absolutely no signs of Steampunk in it. In fact only Nausicaa, Laputa, Howls Moving Castle, and Spirited Away have any Steampunk elements. Porco Rossos is based on 1930's aviation, and Princess Mononoke is set in ancient Japan. I really don't see how anyone can argue the Steampunk merits of Nausicaa. Their is a clear Steampunk styled technology in that story, what with all the retro-futuristic Airships, and other vehicles. FACT50 23:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Broader classifications of steampunk?
Just a query. Must steampunk really stop at mechanical devices? What if the setting say, involved basic electrical systems and hydraulics? Nothing fancy. Maybe just a simple system powering street-lights. CABAL 07:18, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Myst?
Would the Myst series (and books) be classified as steampunk? Seems to me the machines etc are steampunkish, although there are references to electricity etc, and the D'Ni Art is mostly magic, so the whole setting perhaps isn't really steampunk. But I'd like to know where you'd classify it then...
 * There are certainly some worlds that contain traces of steampunk. I haven't played the first game in a long, long time, but I'm playing the third one at the moment. There are definitely some gadgets and puzzles that would be classified as "steam-driven," but as far as I know, Myst does not really have a defined timeframe. Therefore it's difficult to say if it these steam-driven machines are really anachronistic at all, since the action takes place in an alternate universe and in a number of different worlds. Ministry of Silly Walks 04:51, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Sandpunk?
I was wondering if there were any objections to a few edits. There seems to be a lot of disagreement on whether or not futuristic, 'steampunk-like' properties are in fact steampunk. I would argue that Treasure Planet, Trigun and the Final Fantasy games aren't really steampunk at all, but something else.

For me, steampunk must be set in the past, particularly the victorian past, but not necessarily. These are set in the future. I think a difference has to be set between futuristic historical fiction and anachronistic futurist fiction.

I started calling some of these types of stories sandpunk a while ago, and I was hoping to add that to the entry under the appropriate section (along with clockpunk and the like). Any objections/ suggestions?--Spectre general 21:07, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
 * It's a very nice term, but how common is it? I'm not saying I don't think things like this need categorization, but unless it has fairly widespread use, I don't see why it should be included. Google is only coming up with one other instance of this word as it is used here, and it's a very vague definition on another Wiki. Ministry of Silly Walks 04:56, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Last Exile Anime
For sure, the anime series Last Exile should be included. Any thoughts? (preceding unsigned comment by --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 19:09, 5 October 2005 (UTC))


 * I totally agree that Last Exile should be in this list. FACT50 18:37, 6 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Partially, at least. The normal people have technology that would definitely qualify as steampunk. However, consider the fact that they have shown themselves to have basic electrical systems and radios. The Guild is definitely out of the picture. They have freaking televisions and cameras. CABAL 20:44, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Steampunk Music?
How is "And You Will Know Us by the Trail of Dead" considered Steampunk. Same thing goes for The Faint, and The Beatles? Actually I'm going to remove Eleanor Rigby, because upon listening to it again I don't hear how it could be seen as Steampunk? It has violins and other strings but so does The Moody Blues and The Pet Shop Boys, etc. Neither of which I'd consider Steampunk either. I think their needs to be some anachronistic theme to the song itself for me to consider it Steampunk. Why don't we just list the artists that have some amount of a steampunk influence or mood in their music, instead of just individual songs and albums?FACT50 10:28, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't see how any music can be "steampunk". --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 19:06, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I included a link to my own project "Vernian Process" (as in Jules Verne) because I am actually attempting to create Steampunk music. As far as I know, no one else in the world has ever created music that is specifically tailored towards the Steampunk genre. FACT50 20:09, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Abney park is steampunk, they are specifically created ove rthat genre.
 * Actually Abney Park started as a traditional Goth/Industrial band in the late 90's, and picked up the Steampunk image in 2004 or so. They only recently have used that style as an influence. FACT50 23:39, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Could prodidgy/ jhonney rotten be considered steampunk?

prodigy? steampunk? IDIOTS! It's techno, drums & bass, trance, electro... i swear there are some retards here and I will not apologize for my annoyance. "steampunk" music would be music found during the victorian era such as chamber music and the like. abney park..steampunk? HAH. you moron.

this entire article needs a complete overhaul

Too Much Credit to League of Ex. Gentlemen
I've changed the paragraph crediting Alan Moore with the current popularity of steampunk themes and art. The genre is too popular, too established and too widespread to credit one twelve-issue 2003-2004 comic with popularizing it.


 * I was dubious but you've executed it better in the article than you've explained it here. There's no need to minimise the achievements of Alan and Kevin in popularising steampunk (there's a film too) but extending the credit to include the likes of Miyazaki is fine. Jim Moreau 21:55, 14 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Jim, yes, what I revised was that the previous form of the article was phrased to give Moore exclusive credit for the recent popularity of Steampunk, which wasn't realistic. Personally, I never regarded LoEG as Steampunk as the press did; Moore's comics are much more about literature than about retro-science-fiction the way some Anime is or Girl Genius. Jberkus 03:17, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Reword the Article?
It appears to me that much of the text in the first few paragraphs is confusing. A lot is said but I don't think the message is being conveyed. Most of the words require circular reasoning, or knowledge about the subjects being used to define Steampunk. Can someone reword these areas in simpler terms? Justabaldguy 02:30, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Oddworld inhabitants
I think the Oddworld series of games is a viable point of reference for fantasy steampunk. Perhaps the literal use of steam is not totally appropriate, no, but the architecture portrayed throughout the game is a brilliant exageration of victorian steelworks and such. Trainyard-style wrought iron and steel arching infrastructure, especially the extension of curleque bracing and scrimshaw-pattern into such, is a big part of the "victorian scifi reference" we all seem to be trying to touch on, and the work of Oddworld Inhabitants really nails it, especially in Abe's Exoddus and Stranger's Wrath. On another note, there have been a lot of attempts at naming the retrofuturist pieces embracing early 20th century designs (from deco to atomic styles especially), but I think the best so far is "neopulpist", referencing pulp fiction and comic books, arguably the thread that ties the late 20's to late 50's period of streamlined, fin-abundant utopian futurism together as an era. However, I also like "bell-cronkitian", a reference to Walter Cronkite's longrunning series of often ridiculous, but sometimes startlingly accurate, investigations of upcoming technologies from Bell Laboratories. However, this definition is a little too specific- it's just an awesome word, and we should try to get it in the vernacular.

Absurdity
Wow... I wonder if we aren't defining Steampunk into anal-retentive absurdity here... "Steampunk" began with Cyberpunk, but like it or not, it has grown in common usage to mean any Science Fiction with Victorian Sci-Fi-like technology and/or themes. So what if it has neither steam technology nor any "punk" elements (of course Steampunk isn't Punk... you don't see brainwashed, consumeristic kids going to the mall to buy Steampunk stuff from Hot Topic).

I think a very good example of this is Disney's 1961 cartoon "The Saga of Windwagon Smith". The story, set in 19th century Kansas, is about a sailor who rigs up a chuckwagon with a deck and sail, with plans on sailing the windy prairies to Santa Fe. It involves neither clockworks, nor steam, nor anything especially "punk" (though you can get the DVD with it at Wal-Mart, so I guess that makes it kinda' Punk), but is anyone going to seriously suggest that we have to come up with an entirely different name for it because of that?! With everyone falling over themselves to label every Sci-Fi genre something-punk, I'm sure we can come up with a suitably ridiculous term: Chuckwagonpunk? Wagonwheelpunk? Sailpunk? Oh wait, those almost have a ring to them... We need something that sounds as bad as "Sandalpunk" or "Dieselpunk"...

Anyways, some perfectly defensible inclusions to the media list...

Hellboy - Yes it is set in the modern-day and is dominated by horror-action movie tropes and Lovecraftian influences, but it includes a clockwork room and a Victorian scientist who is basically a clockwork cyborg. That is more than enough.

Read or Die OVA - Again, set in the modern day, but nearly all the villains and technology in it are Victorian-Edwardian Steampunk. Maybe we need to define a new genre of "Modern Steampunk" as stories set in the modern day but including wallops of Steampunkesque technology.

Chitty Chitty Bang Bang - Did you know that they had internal combustion engines in the Victorian-Edwardian era? Did you know that the movie is set in the Edwardian era? Did you know that Dick Van Dyke's character is an inventor? Did you know that the car flies for crying out loud?

Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court - A man from Connecticut goes back in time and sets up the Industrial Revolution in Camelot, including steam-power! Nah, nothing Steampunkesque about that! Hey, maybe we should just have another entry for "Steampunkesque" so that everybody who is retentive about Steampunk being nothing but Steam and nothing but Punk can deconstruct to their heart's content.

Bride of Frankenstein - It is set in what appears to be the 19th century and though the technology is 1930's Strickfaden machines, but... well... Franklin, Volta, Galvani, Faraday, Edison, Westinghouse, Telsa... Do we really need to come up with the name Electropunk for Sci-Fi set in the Victorian-Edwardian era using electric technology rather than steam technology?

Anyways, sorry about this being so peevish, but a lot of this debate just looks really silly.


 * None of it is notable according to most editors, therefore because non eof these filmas have ever been listed or made with the Steampunk literary genre in mind they should not be categorised as such. Piecraft 19:32, 23 December 2005 (UTC)


 * One might argue that no Steampunk works have been intentionally created as Steampunk works. Gibson himself was dreading the application of the term "Steampunk". Prior to 1979, no such term even existed, but that didn't stop people from making retro-Victorian sci-fi. That lack of direct intention in itself provides no out from regarding works with Steampunk elements as relevant to the genre. The term itself is almost always applied retroactively or as a point of reference for other people.


 * That's all very good, but that was the same reason for the now defunct article of dieselpunk being deleted. Therefore by that logic this article steampunk whould either be pruned considerably or just deleted as dieselpunk were.

-well, literary genres inherently are vague and blurry. You can easily have a story that fits into Steampunk, Cyberpunk, Desielpunk, Noir, Detective fiction, and so on. These genres overlap and form a massive Venne diagram. So, alot of this argueing and effort put into trying to stick every single piece of fiction into only one particular literary box is simply wasted.

"This Devil's Workday"
What makes "This Devil's Workday" steampunk?

Overlinking
Although steampunk is -- by definition -- fiction, the bibliographical and media lists have grown to about 3/5 of the article length! Is it about time to move the list to a separate page leaving just a short list of notable steampunk pieces here? (Of course any narrowing down is going to be rather trying exercise.) Some pieces listed have merely a steampunk aesthetic without concerning the core idea, so they're prime for culling. I think many of the arguments for inclusion/omission already on this page are too concerned with individual entries than establishing a common criteria. --mordemur 13:18, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I Agree With The Comments Re Absurdity
I am in basic agreements with the comments entitled 'Absurdity.' Let me add my two cents. It seems that some are trying to derive a lot from two words put together : steam and punk. The union of these two words is just a label. The technology in such literature, contrary to what some may think, does not have to run on steam. The submarine in 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea ran on electricity. And there is nothing really 'punkish' about it. It is simply a label for a sub-genre of science fiction, in which the setting is the 19th Century, in which different technologies occurred.


 * Yes, it doesn't actual have punkish thing's in it, it's just hwo the genre is named. You can't go around changing the names of real thing's which everyone else calls them, just because they make no sense! It's like saying welsh dragon sasauges contain no dragon so they should be renamed!

Trimming
this has been discussed several times, but i think that it's time we actually worked to figure it out. there are simply too many references to specific works in this article. we need to trim that down to a list of essentials that truly and clearly encapsulate the steampunk genre or aesthetic. this isn't really intended to be a comprehensive listing of everything that someone, somewhere has suspected might be steampunk. Whateley23 10:42, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, it is useful, but the list is too long and overpowers the main topic - the definition and explanation of the genre. I moved the list to its own article. - Davodd 04:11, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Famous Steampunk Manga
I just wanted to bring up an observation: the manga Full Metal Alchemist is rather steampunk-ish. It's sort of an odd mishmash of modern times and the Victorian era, taking palce around the 1910's. A major plot element is mechanical gadgetery, and thsi sort of mysteriously dystopian society. More or less fantasy steampunk. So, I just thought it might warrant being added to the list, but I'm not sure if the list is being actually used for discussion. 71.10.236.201 00:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

It's also far from dystopic. What makes this silly cartoon steampunk?

Eberron as steampunk
Can someone point me to a reliable source that classifies Eberron as "steampunk"? All the apparent technology (warforged, airships, etc) is based on the manipulation of magic rather than steam technology. Furthermore, Eberron's creators are specific about the setting's origins and influences (see sourced roots and influences section of Eberron article) and steampunk does not figure amongst them. --Muchness 01:32, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Here's a quote from Eberron's art director Robert Raper: "I used a lot of analogies when I was trying to describe the setting. It's not steampunk, nor is it the Middle Ages or dark ages -- it's not traditional fantasy."
 * Eberron's creator Keith Baker: "People are saying 'It's Shadowrun!' It's not. 'It's steampunk!' It's not." --Muchness 01:45, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Eberron adds pervasive "technology" that has destabilized society, a common theme of Cyberpunk. The "tech" simply happens to magical.  This tech is anachronistic relative to stereotypical portrayals of fantasy societies, a trait it shares with steampunk.  That said, this doesn't make it cyberpunk or steampunk.  Eberron is related to cyberpunk in much the same way steampunk is.  I have no idea what this makes it (dungeonpunk?  Although I think that got grabbed for a different sub-genre), or if it's worth mentioning in the article, but I think this is why people are keen on labelling it steampunk.  Alan De Smet | Talk 02:19, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the lucid explanation, I can certainly see why the comparison is being made. I just feel we ought to be careful about classifying Eberron as steampunk when the creators explicitly disavow such a connection; in doing so we veer towards original research by drawing analogies without attribution to (or in this case, in contradiction to) third party sources. --Muchness 03:46, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Francois Schuiten and Benoît Peeters
I stumbled across this article -- hadn't heard the term "steampunk" before. What about Schuiten and Peeters' Les Cités Obscures graphic novel series? (see also the Web site) Seems to fit the definition and in some circles at least, is very well-known. --Macrakis 22:38, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Les Cités Obscures would most definitely be categorized under Steampunk.

Martian Dreams
Does the CRPG Martian Dreams warrant inclusion in this article?--ragesoss 01:06, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Possibly. But do we need to include every single reference of things that might be steampunk? --Brother William 01:49, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Certain Anime/Manga are NOT Steampunk
I have issue with several Anime and manga that are listed as "Steampunk:"


 * Naruto - Ninja
 * One Piece - Pirates
 * Dragon Ball - Based on Mythology and general Bash'em Up Fighting
 * Fullmetal Alchemist - Edwardian era style setting and far from "clockwork" and "steamdriven." In fact, the only steamdriven thing are the locomotives.

Anyone care to give ample reason why these three should be listed as Steampunk?--293.xx.xxx.xx 21:12, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Cyberlock
Could someone qualified fill in a definition for Cyberlock in the subculture section?

Sakura Taisen Historical or Fantasy World?
I think that classifying Sakura Taisen as Fantasy World Steampunk is a big mistake... despite having fantasy elements, Sakura Taisen is very grounded in history drawing on a lot of real historical people and events, including the Mantetsu scandal, apperances by famous Japanese authors and playwrites of the time. It is based in a recognizable period of Japanese history, the Taishou era, the kanji of the name Taishou is slightly changed to give Sakura Taisen a unique feel, but it's still the same period. Every time I've edited this page to reflect that Sakura Taisen is more Historical then Fantasy world it's been edited back. But by Wiki's definition,

"any recent science fiction that takes place in a recognizable historical period (sometimes an alternate-history version of an actual historical period) where the Industrial Revolution has already begun but electricity is not yet widespread, with an emphasis on steam- or spring-propelled gadgets."

Fits Sakura Taisen completely. It's a recognizable period in history, were everything is powered by steam. So once more I'm editing this page, to include Sakura Taisen in the historical section... this time I have a reference too.

Prince Rei 05:54, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Disraeli Gears?
The article references "Tat Wood's essay Disraeli Gears (2003)." A guy on a Steampunk mailing list would really like to read this essay. Can anyone tell me where to find it? Scott Haley 18:37, 5 January 2007 (UTC)


 * There has been some discussion of that and t has drawn blanks. Check through the history to find out who added it and ask them. (Emperor 20:38, 5 January 2007 (UTC))

1984: Definitive Steampunk Movie?
Wouldn't the movie adaptaion of 1984 be the definitive steampunk movie?192.254.1.7 18:53, 5 March 2007 (UTC) Rick G 5 March 07


 * Not really. Not enough Steam technology for starters. I wouldn't even class it is steampunk. (Emperor 19:59, 5 March 2007 (UTC))


 * I'd class it as cyberpunk. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.43.162.99 (talk)


 * For instance the 1994 [Frankenstein movie] is a lot closer to the genre, especially the design of the laboratory. Large rivets, brass, steam and advanced (for the era) technology in heavy use. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.230.148.3 (talk) 17:51, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

In regard to External Links
I reognized the "External links" section.

One site was removed, since it featured one one specific item that could be categorized as "steampunk", but it offered no other Steampunk content whatsoever.

Added my own website, since besides large Steampunk galleries, it is one of the few places that offers Dieselpunk content. Ottens 16:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Dieselpunk
Dieselpunk gets its own section because someone has written on it; that other variants haven't yet been written about in as much detail is not a good reason to remove this material (it's perhaps reason to do more work on the others). As for where it belongs, I don't understand why anyone would think that there's a more appropriate place than this article. --Mel Etitis ( Talk ) 08:44, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Well it gets discussed above and the talk page for the list of steampunk works. As far as I'm concerned dieselpunk (as shown by the Sky Captain) is the more realistic end of retro-futurism and if you want to add anything on it then I'd suggest it should be over there. Not only is the technology different (as the name suggests) but also the general look is different. You might also want to see this (Emperor 14:03, 8 March 2007 (UTC))


 * Your reasoning, though, is OR; the text itself states that dieselpunk is a variant of steampunk. I'm not myself interested in the scholastic subtleties of this, but sources should be give for your claim if it involves removing a chunk of text. --Mel Etitis  ( Talk ) 21:17, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Urmmmm no the statement that dieselpunk is part of steampunk is the original research and is certainly not proven in the text using WP:RS. It isn't for me to prove it isn't it is for someone to prove it is. If they can't prove that it has to go. (Emperor 21:33, 9 March 2007 (UTC))

Please Stop Turning This Article Into A List
the tendency is recurring to treat Steampunk as a list of works which have some (and sometimes very little) relation to the idea of "steampunk." this sort of tendency is best reserved for the companion article, list of steampunk works. Whateley23 22:18, 24 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree - there seems a tendency to keep adding bands to the end of the subculutre section and some of them are either surely off the mark (The Dresden Dolls?) or apprently wildly inaccurate (Sarah Brightman? I thought this was a joke but it crops up here however it is still highly subjective). As with the whole entry it is probably best to not try and mention everything but use examples because of their importance/influence or because they make a relevant point about the genre. The list can scoop up everything else (although that needs monitoring too - as I've said on the talk page you prove its Steampunkery in the entry not just by tagging it on the list). In the music section I'd suggest trimming it down to just Abney Park and Vernian Process. (Emperor 22:35, 28 March 2007 (UTC))


 * well, i'd say that Dresden Dolls is appropriate, and would suggest in addition that Humanwine and Rasputina are equally paradigmatic. however, i really don't care how short the list here is, only that it's shorter than it is now. Whateley23 05:59, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, The music video "Coin Operated Boy" by the dresden dolls can be cited as an example, but I agree with not including it in the main article. EverGreg 19:43, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Why Did you remove the masquerade project? *albums Very industrial, Very SP. All music released via GPL.  Listen yourself (Mirror Location as their domain was snaked. www.dimentox.com/tmp/projects/The_Masquerade_Project-Steampunk_workshop.mp3*

Dimentox 17:58, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * probably because we're trying to get this article away from being a list of steampunk works, which are better represented in the article List of steampunk works. a few, highly-notable examples are left in, but this isn't the place for every random band, book, or movie which has some steampunk element. Whateley23 05:37, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I would say Then for equality we should just link to the music section of the works and not even more make a Alist aka. Vernian Process (which happens to be an editors band/project). Dimentox 14:27, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


 * so, are you saying that, because someone can edit wikipedia, their information is not notable? because that doesn't seem right to me. if we're going to remove it (and we probably should at the moment), it should be due to the lack of a current article. Whateley23 04:00, 4 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Following WP:REDLINK there is nothing worng with having it there even if the last attempt got deleted. It is in the main entry as they are largely considered one of the pioneers of Steampunk music not because they also edit Wikipedia (the sheer force of numbers would remove the link and WP:COI would ensure if there were major disputes they'd have to keep out of the decision making process). Equally there being an editor is no big deal, I've worked with a number of notable Wikipedians about there entries - it is handy as they are the best source of information about themselves. It is our job to make sure the claims are verified and that the entry is neutral. I've found this results in solid well-rounded and informative entries. As Vernian Process does seem an important aspect of the musical scene I've been working to try and get a new version ready - this time sandboxed so that all the rough edges can be knocked off it and facts verified, sources added, etc. You can find it here - comments and discussion are running on the user talk page. (Emperor 13:41, 4 May 2007 (UTC))


 * good to know. i'll put it back in directly. Whateley23 02:19, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * hahaha! i can't believe that i called it "Vernian Project". thank you to whoever fixed that. Whateley23 04:39, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

i'm starting to clear this out of the article. i'm making some executive decisions on some items (specifically the "Warcraft Universe" materials), due to notability. if anyone wants to argue for notability of other works, feel free to do so. Whateley23 06:23, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

The Warcraft is incorrect in a way eq had tinkering gnomes and clockworks way before wow. BUt even in that if your going to discuss games it should be in its own section Dimentox 21:52, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * i don't follow the videogame stuff so intently. please, edit as necessary. Whateley23 05:59, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

and i've done some more cutting, this time of the anime/manga list. honestly, most of those weren't "famous" by any stretch of the imagination. i mean, come on, otaku, not all of us watch for the titles of everything that comes from Japan, even steampunk-related things. as i say, all of those long lists belong in the other article. Whateley23 06:31, 16 April 2007 (UTC)