Talk:Steampunk/Archive 7

fantasy?
there's hardly anything mythology-based or supernatural in plain steampunk. if there is, it is indeed crossover steampunk/fantasy. speculative technologies in industrialised settings is deffinetely science fiction. science fiction is also the roots of steampunk, not fantasy. why does about every source say it is fantasy? it is cleary not. it is science fiction. there just happens to be some crossovers with fantasy.· Lygophile   has   spoken  15:41, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

You're right. I think it happens because people associate sci-fi with futuristic settings. But the distinction between fantasy and sci-fi isn't time period, it's magic vs. technology. One steampunk universe that I think includes fantasy, though, is Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials (The Golden Compass, etc.). Would people agree that that's steampunk? Dfrt (talk) 15:37, 9 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, I do agree. The very reason I'm at this discussion page is because I was so surprised His Dark Materials isn't mentioned in the article. 203.12.195.65 (talk) 03:07, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I disagree a little, true it does have roots in science fiction but more often then not it is used in a world where it appears to be in a struggle with magic. It might have started there but in the end it is fantasy unless you consider dragons and a steam tank locked in combat sci fi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.237.14.28 (talk) 21:12, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

On the Subject of fantasy. Games Workshop has elements of Steampunk (The Empire and Dwarfs spring to mind). This is most defiantly a fantasy Setting with 'Aspects' of Steampunk. There is a diffrence from borrowing from a genre and the genre itself. To me the Seampunk proper is putting your mind in to that of a Victorian/Edwardian and speculateing about the future and theroies of Physics, chemistry and Biology, whith this in mind such fantasy elements as Fairies could feasibly be part of Steampunk using examples like the Cottingley Fairies. The apperance of true Steampunk can be sumed up for me by a quote from Edward VII when inspecting Great Britains first Submarine which his only description was 'very complicated with lots of brass'. Speaking of board games is there any mention of the Game Space 1889? That is Steampunk to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rifleman jay (talk • contribs) 15:36, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

this is not correct: "...although, as mentioned above, the term was coined by Jeter in 1987..."
this clause appears in the first sentence of the second section, but Jeter is not mentioned above... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaydlewis (talk • contribs) 20:03, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Final Fantasy IX
Is anyone concerned with this article familiar with Square-Enix's game Final Fantasy IX?

If so, do they think it warrants inclusion and in depth discussion in this article given it's Steampunk inspiration?

Personally I think it's one of the leading examples of the genre and has thus far received no attention at all. It's also interesting to compare FFIX with the other ten or so games in the series and note the way steampunk and cyberpunk cultures interact stylistically. Please give your thoughts.Thomaskendall11 (talk) 12:46, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Wrong game, its actually Final Fantasy VI that is the closest to it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.163.109.68 (talk) 03:48, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

No sir, I don't like it. Included games should be very Steampunk, not barely Steampunk. Warthan58 (talk) 20:17, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

...How was FFVI Not steam punk? The opening Video for the game features Steam Punk machines. year sure there's a lot of magic involved but thats all Final Fantasy. I think personally FF VI and VII were the most steampunk of all the final fantasy games and therefore worth mentioning. Possibly an honorary mention for certain things within Tactics and possibly X and X-2 only because of the Albhed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sethian-Motzart (talk • contribs) 20:41, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Steampunk in World of Warcraft/Video Games
I hadn't realized that there was a big connection in one of the professions in World of Warcraft to steampunk, due to the fact that I hadn't known steampunk was an actual genre... it seems that it makes a pretty big appearance in many games these days, WoW being one of them. The profession of Engineering allows you to create goggles, flying machines, motorcycles, bombs/grenades, and various other contraptions and robotic creatures. I think it could be an interesting addition to this article titled "Steampunk In Video Games" or something like that. I could supply some screenshots for WoW if anyone wanted to try to put that together. DanzerMan (talk) 08:36, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

There is also a bit of discussion going on over in the actual World of Warcraft article as to the merits of including mention of the steampunk aesthetic. Hop on over and lend a voice. For or against. -Liblarva (talk) 16:41, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I added my 2c. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 17:33, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm not a WoW expert, but my impression was that WoW was based on typical Dungeons & Dragons style fantasy. I've read a lot of fantasy books, and Gnomes creating steam-powered mechanical wonders is fairly common. I really don't think that steam-power alone qualifies anything as Steampunk. If that were the case, we could include ancient Greece for their handful of Steam engine experiments. If WoW is included in Steampunk, then we might as well include the whole fantasy genre. Is there a "dead ringer" for Steampunk somewhere in WoW? Warthan58 (talk) 20:14, 30 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Steam power alone doesn't qualifies anything as steampunk, but the Gnomes in WoW, from what I've seen, go farther than just steam power, and adopt all the trappings of modern steampunk: airships, gyrocopters, clockwork pets and mounts, steam-powered high-tech machines (tanks and robots and such), and goggles everywhere. The only thing missing from the classical definition of steampunk is that it's not built around Victorian England. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 03:29, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Steampunk in videogames, first appearence, current importance
The genere first appeared as the general visual design theme in a computer game entitled Gadget, Past as Future in 1994. The game's entire visual look, as well as emphasis on Victorian modes of transportation (trains, monorails, odd looking proto-aircraft) as well as its intro of several neo-victorian looking steam-engines rolling in to a station clearly place it in this genere.

More recent RPG-s and FPS-s also use steampunk themes in their design and decore, among them Thief II: The Metal Age, where many devices (such as ateam-powered robots, security cameras, and larger devices), have been designed specifically with steampunk in mind. A more recent example is BioShock, where a simple look at the game's poster reveals that a Verneesque look has been opted for in the look and feel of the game (complete with enemies in diving suits). This latter game also dispays many marks of the "road not taken" speculative intent ennumerated as a characteristic of Cyber Punk.

Szekely janos (talk) 08:05, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Bioshock and Bioshock II are more accurately Dieselpunk (or AtomicPunk maybe). The look and feel are all wrong, despite the barely included use of Steam. However, Bioshock Infinite is a good candidate for inclusion in Steampunk; it's in the correct time period, and seems to include the appropriate technologies, art styles, and social attitudes. Warthan58 (talk) 20:21, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Quotation marks
This article uses them wrong. You should use bold or italics.--81.164.88.84 (talk) 11:40, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Examples to list page
I moved some more examples to the list page. I don't have this page watchlisted anymore, as it is too depressing to see how the majority of editors are only interested in getting their favourite film/band mentioned. Additions of examples with no discussion that helps the reader understand the meaning of Steampunk should go to the List of Steampunk works, unless a good reason is given to exchange the examples already here for new ones. Yob  Mod  12:26, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I completely agree with you. An example with no explanation isn't an example at all.  I wish you would put this article back on your watchlist so that we can keep improving it.  I appreciate the efforts you have made. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  14:16, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I have the Enclopedia of fantasy in front of me, so will expand with info from that. Yob  Mod  10:58, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Escaping from Electricity
I am disappointed the article does not mention SteamPunk may have gained in popularity as a way to escape from electricity. Electricity is the basis of command and control, and without it, there is a lot more freedom from the larger society and its demands. Without it, societies would be more broken apart which enables a greater range of diversity but it also enables a greater potential for conflict due to cultural differences and lack of communication. How many SteamPunk plots are made possible by the conflicts caused by separation of culture and communication?

Kids enjoy when the electricity goes out. They can hear what things are like without all the transformer hums inside the house and from local power distribution. Lights being out and having to light candles adds to the effect. But most importantly, there is no TV or internet and people have to react with each other locally. Interacting with people who are physically present is becoming more of a novelty thanks to electricity.Ywaz (talk) 13:24, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * If you can provide references from reliable sources, then such material might warrant inclusion in this article. However, you would need to establish, without using original research, that steam punk specifically -- as distinct from fantasy, mystery, horror and other literary genres that eschew electrical lights -- has grown in popularity for this reason. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 15:04, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd be interested in seeing some myself. I've been in the steampunk scene a little over a year, and this is the first I've heard of such a thing. Most steampunkers I know love electricity. Especially anything Tesla. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 18:31, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I have two things to say about electricity and steampunk:


 * 1. The article refers to Victorian era (1837–1901). I think it should be noted that electricity and inventions about utilizing it belonged to that era. For example Nikola Tesla issued over 80 patents about his inventions concerning electricity and its utilization, such as motors, generators, transformers, high frequency, radio, lightning, meters, propulsion and other – all of them in Victorian era. Later he issued more patents. Edison Electric Light Company (known as General Electric) started on 1890, also in Victorian era. Maybe it would be possible to rip electricity out of steampunk, but then the credibility of the fiction would suffer more.


 * 2. While the invention of electricity was the ground basis of modern information technology, it was not enough. As late as on 1951, few years after the first transistor, a Cambridge mathematician Professor Douglas Hartree said that Great Britain needed only three digital computers. That was his opinion, but it was based on the hard fact that computers were huge, expensive, slow and their power consumption was enormous. Yet, they were all electric devices, "the basis of command and control" (as Ywaz said above), full of state-of-the-art electronics of his day. The cheap computers we have exist because semiconductors were developed, a transistor was invented, then they were effectively integrated, which accelerated the development of computing machines. See the Kurzweil's graph of Moore's Law. 94.237.95.174 (talk) 16:12, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Post-Apocalypse
There are some works of steampunk that are clearly post-apocalyptic so shouldn't the category be included, thanks. IzzyReal (talk) 01:36, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Sherlock Holmes
I was just curious if anyone has argued that there are any Steampunk-like elements of the new Sherlock Holmes (2009 film)? I know this isn't a chat forum but if this produces any leads, then hopefully that would be productive. If not, mere brainstorming (so long as we're not doing original research) --达伟 (talk) 02:44, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Crossover Works: E.g. His Dark Materials
Hi, earlier today I noticed Philip Pullman's Northern Lights on the List of steampunk works and added a couple of minor details to the entry. I also came to the Steampunk page and added a mention in the "Fantasy-world" section, The first sentence, already there, said, "Since the 1990s, the application of the steampunk label has expanded beyond works set in recognizable historical periods (usually the 19th century) to works set in fantasy worlds that rely heavily on steam- or spring-powered technology."

To this, I added, "One prominent example of such steampunk-flavored fantasy literature is Philip Pullman's series His Dark Materials (Northern Lights/The Golden Compass, The Subtle Knife and The Amber Spyglass) — set in an alt-Victorian world that incorporates steampunk elements such as dirigibles and clockwork-driven technology, fantasy elements such as animal-form companions and armored polar bears, and science fiction elements such as parallel universes."

Another user reverted the change, saying, "this has been discussed at length; HDM is not steampunk," then also removed the long-standing entry from the List of steampunk works.

I would entirely agree that His Dark Materials is not straight steampunk — no work including magic and other fantasy elements ever could be considered such, IMO, though the term's application has been expanded in recent years — but I would argue that it is, as stated, "steampunk-flavored [or -inflected] fantasy literature," as the category heading calls for. This discussion has been had many times in many places, and the consensus always seems to be that, if Pullman's works are not steampunk proper, they do have a decidedly steampunkish feel to the fantasy world they are set in.

These books are probably the best-known steampunk–fantasy crossover works in existence — and as such may well be a frequent gateway into steampunk for new readers. It does seem that's at least worthy of a mention.

Kdelf (talk) 03:41, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

A Few Supporting Citations
Powell's Books, Barnes & Noble and other booksellers shelve and tag Pullman's trilogy as steampunk: http://www.powells.com/sub/ChildrensSteampunk.html http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?CAT=1454072

The list of reviews of steampunk works on steampunk.com includes Pullman's books: http://www.steampunk.com/newsfch/Reviews/By_Author/P/#Philip_Pullman

Numerous review sites, including the Internet Review of Science Fiction, explicitly refer to HDM as steampunk: e.g. http://www.irosf.com/q/zine/article/10114

The Onion's A.V. Club, in its "Gateways to Geekery" series (distinct from the "fake news" of the news division), calls the series out as a "great steampunk work," referring specifically to "the splendor and spectacle of Pullman’s intricate, majestic, steam-filled world." http://www.avclub.com/articles/steampunk,30467/

This article from The Guardian discusses certain steampunk elements found in both the recent film version of The Golden Compass and in the original books: http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2008/oct/17/poster-service-golden-compass

The makers of the film clearly incorporated a strong steampunk aesthetic, and show with this featurette that they did so consciously and deliberately: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ogl_aOaZbak

Kdelf (talk) 03:41, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Retrotronics
Can someone make an article about retrotronics. This activity involves the making of electric circuits using older electric components (eg tubes etc...) See also: www.tubesandmore.com www.retro-tronics.com/ http://www.instructables.com/id/Building_A_Stereo_Tube_Amp/ http://makezine.com/projects/ too has some retrotronics projects 91.182.161.238 (talk) 12:41, 5 February 2010 (UTC)


 * We certainly could, but why don't you ? 8-)   I've done the stub creation, just to get over that hurdle. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:15, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
 * And of course, some good-faith editor has already speedied it. 3 minutes, maybe a new record! Andy Dingley (talk) 13:23, 5 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Articles for deletion/Retrotronics
 * The editor who AfDed this (Who has no past interest in steampunk, but does enjoy deleting articles) doesn't believe in notifying relevant bodies of their attempts to delete them either. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:14, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Kipling proto-steampunk?
The following was added last month to the proto-steampunk section, but has no reference:


 * Rudyard Kipling's "With the Night Mail: A Story of 2000 A.D." and "As Easy as ABC" could easily qualify as steampunk.

I know nothing about these stories, but the lack of a ref., the editor's paltry summary, and the opinionated nature of "could easily qualify" all make me skeptical. Does anyone know anything about these stories? Are they relevant? More to the point, have they ever been cited in a reliable source as "proto-steampunk" or as an influence on later authors? ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive' 17:33, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I had not seen either story before, until you mentioned it here. I looked them up and noticed they were both public domain and available online (they're also both sold in paperback form on Amazon.) After perusing them I would definitely have to say they are easily "proto-steampunk". I googled and noticed some minor discussion of them on the Brass Goggles and Steampunk Empire forums, Aether Emporium has it listed as recommended reading, and there's a note in JSBlog (the blog of Joel Segal Books) that compares the story "With the Night Mail" to the aesthetics of the band Abney Park (http://segalbooks.blogspot.com/2010/02/steampunk-continues-folk-meme.html), but nothing that overtly says the are proto-steampunk - I think it's almost assumed as a given. But after looking at both books, I'd definitely say they easily fall within the same category as the "proto-steampunk" works of Jules Verne and HG Wells, et. al. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 20:12, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I've read "With the Night Mail"---in fact it was the original reference on this page which lead me to it---and it does indeed seem to be proto-steampunk. So can we restore the reference in some form? Beoram (talk) 12:01, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Steampunk World's Fair?
Should this even be here? It reads like an advertisement and the only reference given is the event's own website. And event seems to be just one of many steampunk conventions going on right now. Bellman45 (talk) 20:58, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Notability may very well be an issue. I have no opinion on the matter. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  21:05, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok then if no one objects I'm going to remove it. It doesn't seem notable, it lacks a third party source and it reads like it's using wiki for advertising. Bellman45 (talk) 21:46, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Culture: SalonCon
Did SalonCon really run for three years? I suspect it was a shorter period, i.e. three weeks or three days. 64.26.116.205 (talk) 23:22, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It looks like it was a one-day event; I believe what was meant was that it was held for three consecutive years. There's a note on their website that they are no longer holding it. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 23:38, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

SalonCon also was not originally a steampunk convention but rather a Neo-Victorian event. The owner of the event even once said that her event was "a lot better before all the steampunks showed up" so I'm not sure how relevant SalonCon as a steampunk event might be. There are plenty of science fiction and genre cons that have had a steampunk showing or theme. It doesn't make them steampunk. Also, I have heard that Nova Albion Steampunk Exhibition was the first fully steampunk convention, running October 31-November 2 2008 under the name SteamPowered Convention. It "took place near the airship hangars of Moffett Field. Guests included Jake Von Slatt, Phil and Kaja Foglio, Jeff Van Der Meer, "Dr. Grodbort," the crew from the "Neverwas Haul," and the band Abney Park." Their site was recently hacked, so I'm looking to see if anyone has more information on this event? Looking at the old SalonCon site, they are self-proclaimed "Pre-Raphaelite and Post-Modern". SteamPowered seems a better flagship at this juncture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.110.150.23 (talk) 16:52, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Paris in the 20th Century
How did I know you were going to try to pull that one? The context of the use of "Futuristic SF" in the article are the books set at around the same time as he wrote them (and thus in the era of Steampunk). A novel written in the 1860s set in the 1960s is by definition "futuristic" but also pretty much by definition irrelevant to the discussion of steampunk. Duggy 1138 (talk) 22:42, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Rubbish. Wikipedia's working definition of "truth" is based on verifiability through reliable sources. You can't look at any 3rd party comment on steampunk, within recent years, without seeing a mention of Verne. Maybe it was "scientific romances", "futuristic science fiction" or "terrible old rubbish, but it does put a goose on the table" (Mme. Verne), that's irrelevant. However whatever it's labelled as, it has had huge influence on steampunk and continues to do so. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:49, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Rubbish. I've never asked Verne or his influence to be removed.  Just the incorrect label "futuristic".  Do try to keep up. Duggy 1138 (talk) 22:52, 2 May 2010 (UTC)


 * "also pretty much by definition irrelevant to the discussion of steampunk", looks awfully like a claim that Verne has no relevance to steampunk. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:56, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The work "Paris in the 20th Century" a "novel written in the 1860s set in the 1960s" is "pretty much by definition irrelevant to the discussion of steampunk." Please read the entire sentence, not just random chunks of it. Duggy 1138 (talk) 22:59, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and the context is also a film made about 50 years before the book in question was published. Duggy 1138 (talk) 22:45, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

To quote the citation: "More important, Verne scholars have also argued long and hard that Jules Verne should not be labeled a futurist at all." So I'm going with the Verne scholars and removing it. Duggy 1138 (talk) 22:55, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "Have argued long and hard. Past tense. You missed the obvious conclusion of the article. "Vernian scholars must now acknowledge the painful truth: the public’s longtime and much-maligned perception of Jules Verne as visionary technological prophet and "Seer of Tomorrow" was actually more accurate than we, the so-called 'experts,' ever suspected." --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 23:23, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "Must now" because a second story set in the future has been found? They knew about the first.  And a story set in 1960 and a story set in 2998 aren't the ones we look at when we're looking at Steampunk.  They certainly aren't the ones the the film in question was based on.  Gibson's Cyberpunk works are futuristic.  Is his Steampunk? Duggy 1138 (talk) 23:30, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You "pshawed" my citation on my talk page, stating "The reviewer from you article now determnines what Verne scholars think? Fair enough. There should be a citable Verne scholar to back you up, not the assumptions of someone else." Arthur B. Evans is not just "a reviewer." He is a Verne scholar and a French Professor at DePauw University, and author of the book, Jules Verne Rediscovered. I think he ought to know the subject upon which he's speaking about; he's a citable Verne scholar. I could ask him to come in here and set the matter straight himself, if you like... --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 23:51, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "Must now" because a second story set in the future has been found? They knew about the first.  And a story set in 1960 and a story set in 2998 aren't the ones we look at when we're looking at Steampunk.  They certainly aren't the ones the the film in question was based on.  Gibson's Cyberpunk works are futuristic.  Is his Steampunk? Duggy 1138 (talk) 23:54, 2 May 2010 (UTC)