Talk:Steampunk/Archive 9

Real world examples
I think the real world examples list needs a cull. Some of the items, dirigibles, difference engine, are mentioned earlier in the text, whilst other, Eiffel Tower, Monitor, do not seem relevant. Any thoughts? --- RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive' 15:17, 10 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Looking through the article history, I see that most of this list was added just last month by Uikku. So, I am bringing the list here, and I request that he come here and explain how this is relevant. --- RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  15:26, 10 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Rumpler Tropfenwagen
 * Wardenclyffe Tower
 * Hindenburg class airship
 * Monitor (warship)
 * Alexanderson alternator
 * Eiffel Tower
 * Great Melbourne Telescope
 * Corliss steam engine (Corliss Centennial Engine)
 * Tesla turbine
 * Magnetic amplifier
 * Doble steam car
 * Difference engine
 * Stirling engine
 * The Emett Railway


 * Do you agree about the opening paragraph of the article?
 * Steampunk is a sub-genre of science fiction, alternate history, and speculative fiction that came into prominence during the 1980s and early 1990s. Specifically, steampunk involves an era or world where steam power is still widely used&mdash;usually the 19th century and often Victorian era Britain&mdash;that incorporates prominent elements of either science fiction or fantasy. Works of steampunk often feature anachronistic technology or futuristic innovations as Victorians may have envisioned them; in other words, based on a Victorian perspective on fashion, culture, architectural style, art, etc. This technology may include such fictional machines as those found in the works of H. G. Wells and Jules Verne or real technologies like the computer but developed earlier in an alternate history.
 * That is a crucial question. We need to have some basic agreement before further discussion. Uikku (talk) 18:30, 11 October 2010 (UTC)


 * With all due respect, what is the relevance? --- RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive' 17:52, 12 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I see that you did not disagree about the opening paragraph. Good. So, the relevance? Steampunk is sometimes fantasy or science fiction, sometimes both. Technology is usually part of science fiction. Those real world examples in the list were examples of technology (or style, as in the case of Rumpler Tropfenwagen) that existed in the Victorian era. Including such examples would help readers to realize and imagine how a steampunk society could look like if it existed. There could be even more examples of technology, architecture, inventions, etc. Many of those inventions and technological solutions have been abandoned because some other inventions replaced them, because the new inventions were less expensive, more efficient or what ever. I think that the list served readers of the article and consumed only little space. I would vote for keeping it in the article. Uikku (talk) 17:11, 19 March 2011 (UTC)


 * It seems that nobody disagreed about 1) the definition of steampunk or 2) the relevance I explained above. I have been waiting for comments more than four months, which should be quite sufficient time. The next logical step in the near future is that I will edit the article and carefully add the list of Real world examples, including the items that are certainly relevant. --Uikku (talk) 17:52, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Not unless you can provide reliable sources which explicitly name these as "real world examples" for steampunk! Otherwise, it's original research, which we don't accept.-- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  19:33, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Is that a moderate demand? I mean, it is easy to prove that some invention existed in Victorian era and it should be rather easy to show that some invention existed in some known stories of the Steampunk genre. So, what could be reliable sources which explicitly name these as "real world examples" for steampunk? What could be qualified as a source for Steampunk if not Steampunk? --Uikku (talk) 11:25, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Many steampunk works mention teapots; that doesn't make them "real world examples of things that inspired steampunk". You need citations from published works about steampunk, saying what did and did not inspire steampunk; otherwise, like I said, you're doing original research. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  01:46, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * RepublicanJacobite asked me to come in and comment on this, as I am a regular contributor to the page. I hadn't noticed the new section, and I'm somewhat ambivalent about it so far. RJ is right, some of these have been mentioned elsewhere in the article. And others are not anachronistic at all, since they were developed in the time period, some were standard technology of the time and others are just oddities, technologies that were proposed but never built upon. And I also don't see how some of them (such as the Monitor, the Great Melbourne Telescope and the Corliss Engine) are relevant. At best, it seems to be a list of quirky, abandoned technology and examples of architectural style that modern steampunks draw upon for inspiration. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 19:25, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

TimeSplitters
I realize that there are probably tons of fanboys competing here, but I think the game TimeSplitters: Future Perfect deserves a reference somewhere, if only a minor reference. It featured three levels that involved steampunk. The plot line was that the time-traveling villain of the game ("Jacob Crow") made an alliance with "Khallos", a Bond-like Russian villain from the year 1969. Khallos gave Crow a small portion of his Russian henchmen army, which Crow sent back in time to a no-longer-existent island off the coast of Scottland during the Victorian Era. Because they were from the 'future', and because Crow had traveled even further into the future himself, they were able to construct a massive underground steampunk city known as "Kronia". The underground complex featured pretty much all the things that would be expected of a steampunk city, the Russians had adapted steampunk style uniforms while wielding steampunk weapons, and there were even a handful of steampunk robots (most likely designed by Crow). Also, although it's production is, perhaps, permanently halted, TimeSplitters 4's concept art featured a lot of steampunk elements, suggesting that it may have played an ever larger role in the unfinished game than it did in TimeSplitters: Future Perfect. Steampunk was also somewhat existent in TimeSplitters 1 and 2, though not nearly to the same extent it was in Future Perfect. 67.10.112.12 (talk) 17:48, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Cyerpunk
Believe me, none likes the fact that we're categorized as a Cyberpunk subgenre, we're evoloved from it, not its subgenre. We're a sci-fi subgenre. Anyone with me? --82.182.36.181 (talk) 21:39, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Webcomics? eg Freak Angels
Hi folks, just wondered if it would be worth adding a reference in the article to the webcomic Freak Angels (www.freakangels.com) which appears, to my eyes, to feature something close to steampunk in a post-apocalyptic London setting.
 * I've been reading the comic for a while. I'm not really convinced it qualifies as steampunk, it's mostly just post-apocalyptic. Even if it's deemed steampunk, it would belong more on List of steampunk works than it would here. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 03:19, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Category:Steampunk films
Experienced editors are encouraged to engage in a discussion here as to the films with which this category has been populated. Many of them, I would argue, are not appropriate. --- RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive' 00:01, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

David Bruce's "Steampunk"
I recently removed an addition to the culture section in which an anon. user added the following:


 * The British-American composer David Bruce has written a piece entitled "Steampunk". It was commissioned by Carnegie Hall and can be heard in full on the composer's website

With an attached link to the article's webpage. My argument, both then and now, is that the composer's webpage is a primary source which does not prove notability, only that the piece of music actually exists. Andy Dingley objected arguing that the composer is notable and Carnegie Hall are notable, therefore the piece of music is notable. This is specious logic, because the implication of that is that every musician who has played at Carnegie Hall is notable, and every piece of music performed there is notable. This is obviously not the case. Andy went on to accuse me of "article ownership" and to demand that I find adequate sources for the information. He then reverted me and later added a link to the Carnegie Hall website, which is another primary source, still not proving that the piece of music itself is notable. I am not looking for an edit war, but I do believe I am correct in my assertions, and I am tired of Andy Dingley's accusations and general attitude toward me. I want the opinions of other editors on this matter. Thanks. --- RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive' 19:19, 15 February 2011 (UTC)


 * So your fatuous constructed excuse, which it has taken you a week to cook up, is that Carnegie Hall isn't WP:RS?
 * You might wish (no, you won't, that much is obvious) to note that the reference you removed wasn't even from Carnegie Hall, as you claimed, but from Skidmore College, where the piece was premiered. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:43, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Fuck you, Andy, and your fucking lousy attitude. I waited, in the hopes that, considering all your bloviating on the topic, you might add a fucking reference, considering you keep claiming so many are out there, that prove this piece of music is notable.  In that time you did fuck-all.  So, once again, fuck you. --- RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  23:55, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * If you want a reference, just ask for one. You did that once, so I added the Skidmore one - of the dozen or so I pulled up in moments, this looked like a good, credible one to use. If that's still not enough, there's plenty more out there, as many as anyone could reasonably wish for, even to WP standards. It's just not credible to pull this because you don't like the quality of the references for it. Of course the composer's own site isn't enough to indicate notability, but even despite that, it's still a useful additional ref - in particular, because it has streaming copies.
 * If you have some other reason to pull it, then at least come out and say that. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:26, 16 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I do not care whether the reference to the piece of music stays in or not. I have no feelings about it or the composer.  But, when an anonymous editor does a drive-by edit, inserting a vague reference to something or other with "steampunk" in the name, and the reference he adds is not in itself notable or reliable, my radar goes off.  So, I removed it.  Then began this needless back-and-forth with you, which, in case you mistake, I neither enjoyed nor appreciated.
 * What I want is for this article not to be inundated with dozens of vague references to this or that cultural manifestation of something called "steampunk," a term now used so loosely and thoughtlessly that it damn near has no definition whatever. Given the sudden, and inexplicable, popularity of "steampunk," we are being inundated with references to music, fashion, art installations, and whatnot that calls itself, or is called by one or another self-appointed expert to be "steampunk," though it hasn't a single element of steam or punk in it at all.  So, I am vigilant when it comes to additions to the "culture" section, since this is where most of the problems lie.  But, vigilance does not equal ownership.  Was I wrong in this instance?  Perhaps.  But that does not mean that I am wrong in general. --- RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  15:47, 16 February 2011 (UTC)


 * You remove an awful lot of poor additions to this article, and any number of claims for Brasil, for all of which I'm grateful. However a filter on the rubbish seems to have turned into a view that the article must be fossilised and unchanging. For a scene that's currently enjoying its fifteen minutes of fame, that's an odd position to take. Is there an OWNership problem? Maybe not, because an OWNer is usually trying to add their favourite topic to the article, your edits (and just look at that history) are all about reverting additions.
 * This addition, whether added by an IP editor or whoever, describes a situation where a well-known body in music and a notable composer have adopted the genre and taken it to a context outside the scene. Now I consider that to be a significant event and worthy of note. A "drive-by-edit" is an irrelevance (and you need to apply AGF to all, even IP editors), because we should judge it on the value of the content, not who added it. When an event is poorly added to an article, it's not hard to fix it, which I did — admittedly not quite as quickly as your two minutes before your repeated reversion. Would you like more sources? I'd already added four refs to the same content on the composer's page, rather than the two here, but deliberately didn't add all of them because I consider the Skidmore college one to be quite sufficient to WP:V the content added. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:09, 17 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I did some research on Bruce, who said his inspiration for “Steampunk” came from listening to the Beethoven septet that will be on the program. “The horn and bassoon immediately stood out to me as defining colours of the group and somehow a connection formed between them and the images of the steampunk world,” the composer wrote in an e-mail. It seems that the only reason this piece of music is Steampunk is that Bruce says it is.  I do not think this music falls within the cultural scope of what Steampunk is.  Even if it did, I don't see anything notable beyond a self-serving and self-referenced piece of work with no apparent value.  In my opinion, David Bruce should be deleted. Warthan58 (talk) 07:19, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

International Relevance
The page is good but seems to give the impression that Steampunk only has a US appeal. Would it be worth expanding some of the sections with events etc from the rest of the world to show a global appeal? Lady of the dead (talk) 13:55, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Does anything steampunk happen outside the US? Might one find such things happening in an out-of-the-way place like Wales, for instance? Andy Dingley (talk) 16:58, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm assuming you're saying that tongue-in-cheek. There's plenty of steampunks and steampunk happenings in the UK, and the whole steampunk musical genre of "chap-hop" hails from there. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 01:05, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, as to your example there is a three day steampunk festival in Wales in May. There are lots of other steampunk events that I know of in England, France and Germany. Lady of the dead (talk) 15:42, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Cheeky. I just checked your talk page Welsh boy Lady of the dead (talk) 15:44, 21 March 2011 (UTC)


 * But will there be absinthe cupcakes, I wonder? 8-) Andy Dingley (talk) 16:26, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps Lady of the dead (talk) 10:14, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

External links to UK and Canadian groups were removed as not being important enough. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.193.144.2 (talk) 18:19, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Brown Mobile Phone
I can understand that everyone wants to get thier work seen on Wikipedia. But I really don't think the brown mobile phone is a very good example of the steampunk genre and it would be a shame for passers by to think anything painted brass is considered art. The phone also does not fit in with the rather nice text in that section. If however other people want to keep it, I will stop removing it. Lady of the dead (talk) 10:14, 31 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I'd like to see some example of etched brass artwork, because that's one of the techniques that seems particularly popular with steampunks and the Maker movement at present. A rig for doing so was the most popular display on the steampunk's stall at Newcastle's recent Maker Faire.
 * However this phone isn't a good example of it. I haven't removed it myself yet, but I'm not a fan of it as it is. Might it be less obtrusive if the  parameter were added to the image box, making it a little better proportioned? Andy Dingley (talk) 10:54, 31 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I am not particularly impressed with it either. To the casual observer it looks like someone just spray-painted a phone. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 20:19, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Labyrinth of Jareth
Twice now I have removed this event from the entry. The event is not steampunk in any way, shape, or form. Save that some people dress steampunk while attending. If we add every event that people dress in a steampunk style at we will have an entire new page devoted to it. The entry is not pertinent and seems to be added purely for promotion.Quantafied (talk) 13:51, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I added the event initially. It wasn't added "purely for promotion", as I have no dealings with the event or it's promoters, nor have I ever gone to it. I do know, however, that it is a big event on the L.A. steampunk social calendar, and steampunk attire is a large and growing part of the event. (It's also the place where the League of STEAM got their start, but I didn't see the need to mention that.) --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 00:57, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Picture of Falksen
The picture of author G. D. Falksen shows him wearing an arm created by Thomas Willeford. Twice now I have added this to the caption only for it to be removed. If it is being removed to prevent promotion then I suggest we also remove Falksen's name. Thoughts?Quantafied (talk) 13:53, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd support removing both names. Policy on WP isn't to credit individuals like that, unless they're significant within the article. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:20, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The photo of Falksen is already on his own page, btw. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 18:33, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * HOWEVER, I've noted that for some odd reason the photo at the top of the page, of the two people in steampunk attire, has been replaced by the steampunk keyboard. We ought to have some representation of steampunk attire on this page. I'm not exactly sure what the objection is to Falksen, or to the other pic, but I think one or the other, or a different one showing steampunk attire, should be used here. There are a few other images on Wikipedia Commons but I think those two work best. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 21:41, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I've reverted the lead picture back. I think it has a broader representation of steampunk than a modified keyboard. ~ Brother William (talk) 00:32, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Falksen can go, he's just a writer like so many others, and I don't think his contribution or cool photo is notable.Warthan58 (talk) 03:32, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

C.S. Lewis
This is more of a question than an assertion, but would "Out of the Silent Planet" by C. S. Lewis be a very early proto-Steam Punk story? Written in the 1950's, it nonetheless has an H. G. Wells' inspired view of the universe. 68.50.151.142 (talk) 00:29, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Myst Video Game Series
Would the Myst video games be considered examples of Steampunk? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.24.125.41 (talk) 11:51, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Have third-party reliable sources discussed it as an example of Steampunk? If not, then the answer is no as far as this article is concerned.AstroCog (talk) 16:17, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * From a purely aesthetic standpoint, I think not, as neither the settings or the plot have any particular essence of Neo-Victorian, steam technology, and so on. Myst doesn't even reach a gears-glued-to-barrettes level of steampunk aesthetic, to me. Great game, though. Kate (talk) 21:30, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Apart from a pair of huge cogs glued to the island... Andy Dingley (talk) 21:43, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Some missing history here?
You mention The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen yet you make no reference to Haggard's Quatermain or Doyle's Prof. Challenger (of The Lost World) who was inspired by Haggard.

Also, forgive me if I am in error as I have little time, you seem to have completely missed two of the original "steampunk" inspirations: Spring-heeled Jack who spanned from Victorian to early Edwardian times; and the Mad Gasser of Mattoon, Illinois, a true incident which dates back to the early 1940s I believe.

There is Margaret Cheney's biography of Nikola Tesla which goes unmentioned, as does the Serbian biopic of Tesla. Whilst I realise there is not infinite space available, don't you think good, original inspirations should be listed alongside Verne and Wells?

As to film, has everyone forgotten Dennis Hoper's 1996 seminal classic Space Truckers? What about Lori Petty's Tank Girl?75.21.113.40 (talk) 14:28, 27 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Who is this "you" you're referring to? Do you mean the editors of this article? If there's something missing, and you've got the reliable sources to back it up, then be bold and add it. I think unless some reliable sources discussed Space Truckers and Tank Girl as examples of Steampunk, it'll be tough to justify adding them to this article. They seem more like general sci-fi/comedy than steampunk. AstroCog (talk) 16:19, 27 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Umm, I suppose "you" means you. I have no time to be messing with someone else's hard work, I am making suggesitons. BY the way, if you are suggesting there is serious scholarship about what is and what is not "steampunk", you are WAY off base. And frankly I do not appreciate the tone.75.21.113.40 (talk) 18:34, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

You know very well, Republican Jacobite, that I meant neither harm nor offense by my post. It was a combination of query and observation, nothing more. If you feel offended, then I apologize, but I suggest you watch where you are putting your hands the next time you feel the urge to delete my posts under false pretenses!!75.21.113.40 (talk) 15:40, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Ye who enter here, beware rudeness - and repression
The removal of my last post, illegal by the rules and most viciously intended, proves the reception in this talk page is terrible. The courtesy is lacking. It shows the poverty of the minds here that removed my post.

In the stead of an apology or at the least an effort to resume a better dialogue, my post was simply and illegally removed! I protest the removal of my post. I protest the rotten atmosphere in this talk section.75.21.113.40 (talk) 15:11, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Proto-steampunk
Proto-steampunk as a section is woefully inadequate, no more than mentioning Verne et al. If no one will accuse me of malfeasance, I will make some 'light' additions, consisting of a few more contributors. One example is Sir Henry Haggard's Allan Quatermain and another is Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's Professor George Challenger.

In addition, if it is not too offensive, may I enquire whether "Proto-steampunk" can be changed to something more fitting? Such as "Original inspirations"? "Proto-steampunk" seems grammatically wrong to me somehow.

Well, you've been duly advised. I am going to work at it a bit, lest I be accused of "pissing and moaning" for doing nothing.75.21.113.40 (talk) 16:08, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * When Challenger and Quatermain were created, they were contemporary action heroes. Part of the core of steampunk is the retro aspect of it: the nostalgia for a (fictionalized and prettified) bygone era of derring-do and elegance combined, nearly a century (or more) in the dim past. Most steampunks, I fear, have never read any of this material, get all their information on Tesla from Alan Moore and Warehouse 13, and certainly never heard of Vidocq! -- Orange Mike &#x007C;  Talk  19:26, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Most steampunks have probably heard of Quatermain through Alan Moore, but all the more reason for noting him as a "proto-steampunk" (or whatever you want to call it). Moore considered him a significant enough figure to include in the League, steampunks today frequently dress as either him, or someone awfully similar from the Haggard / Buchan canon. If this article doesn't cover such topics, what's the point in it other than cataloguing whatever Warner Bros tells it to. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:30, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Orange Mike, I agree with you totally. It is a sad thing, but it seemed to me steampunk might change all that! Imagine a generation of truly literate, scientifically oriented youngsters!

You said: "Part of the core of steampunk is the retro aspect of it: the nostalgia for a (fictionalized and prettified) bygone era of derring-do and elegance combined, nearly a century (or more) in the dim past."

Do you realize that this practically defines the characters of Prof. Challenger and Quatermain in so many ways? Challenger, wanting or perhaps fantasizing the "bygone" aspect of widespread knowledge; Quatermain sort of hiding in the bygone era when women stayed behind!

However, I also see your point: it is pure neo-Victorianism, in a purist sense. (Steampunk is too young to have purists!) Verne was the ideal because he was imagining and fantasizing about the future - a future he had no way of even guessing accurately. He did it by studying and knowledge, by befriending the right people.

He gave an alternate reality in every instance. But now I think, in our reality, what would Verne have done with Wikipedia? What do you think? Your post is thought-provoking and I thank you for the helpfulness of its content.75.21.113.40 (talk) 20:35, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Warning to future newcomers
Well, with the "reversions" - is that what you call them? - the deletion of my work, and the absolute calcification of this article, I am through here. This amounts to a good potential article, but not as long as the two bullies calling themselves editors get their way all the time. By the way, it is true this article seems to be owned by one or two editors only! Farewell, bullies and enablers alike.75.21.113.40 (talk) 21:13, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, we're sad to see you go. People should not be taking control of an article (See WP:OWN), but I'm sure that if your changes were reverted they were done with good reason.  Rcsprinter  (orate)  21:22, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * My dear Rcsprinter ', your comment is appreciated. I think I can clarify something for you: I made the error of attempting to add a bit of information to the article. It was all immediately deleted, on the grounds that it was original research or something like that. In short, it was not wanted. I doubt the editors in control here'' have a clear notion of a good piece of information. What do you expect from people who dress like A. Quatermain yet have no real idea who he is?75.21.113.40 (talk) 22:01, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Ooh, dear, I'm afraid that if it is original research then it is on grounds to be deleted. (See WP:Original research.) What you need is content you've written yourself and that is properly referenced and relevant. I haven't seen any diffs yet but I will speak to the editors you speak of about ownership of articles and not being nice to new editors. Good luck with any future editing.  Rcsprinter  (gossip)  20:43, 1 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Ah, I said they deleted it on the grounds, I failed to mention they were creating an impossible standard. I know perfectly well all about original research. When does impartial observation of fact become original research?! My error was that I was unable to procure a reference quickly enough, even though the text I added was consistent with the paragraph as-is.


 * My deepest thanks for your assurance that you will look into the issue.75.21.113.40 (talk) 14:13, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, I have commented on one of the editor you mentioned's talkpage and hope the matter will be resolved soon. Best,  Rcsprinter  (Gimme a message)  16:21, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Dear Rcsprinter, firstly forgive me for taking the exact text to duplicate your signature. I meant no harm by it.

Let me thank you for your help. This matter, as does this article, now sits beneath my notice except that something has changed. You will know what it is.

Again, accept my humble thanks. I said I'd wash my hands of this nonsense, but I never said I'd cease in my vigilance.75.21.113.40 (talk) 01:16, 3 November 2011 (UTC)