Talk:Steeve Elana

Categories about Guinean descent
BLP noticeboard Hello,

User:Ortizesp repeatedly categories about an alledged Guinean descent for Steeve Elana, which I believe is not acceptable seeing the status of this information and our current guidelines, specifically WP:BLPCAT and WP:EGRS.

Here's what the sources linked in the article say:
 * https://www.afrik-foot.com/guinee-la-naturalisation-de-steeve-elana-a-capote (hardly a reliable source):
 * Title: Guinée : la naturalisation de Steeve Elana a capoté ! Rough translation: Guinea: the naturalization of Steeve Elana has collapsed!
 * Lede: Le gardien de Tours, Steeve Elana, n’a pas été en mesure de prouver ses liens avec la Guinée, ce qui a entraîné l’échec de sa naturalisation. Rough translation: Tours goalkeeper Steeve Elana was unable to prove his links with Guinea, which led to failure of his naturalization.
 * Abstract relative to ascendancy: [Elana] n’est en effet pas parvenu à prouver ses liens avec la Guinée, ce qui a fait capoter sa naturalisation. « Du côté de ma mère, j’ai des liens avec la Guinée. Ça remonte aux arrières grands-parents… Mais je n’ai pas cherché plus loin pour savoir de quelle ville ou quelle région je suis », expliquait récemment l’ancien international martiniquais (une sélection non-affiliée à la FIFA, ce qui lui permettait de jouer pour la Guinée) au site centpourcentfoot.net. « Elana ne savait pas de quelle partie de la Guinée venait sa grand-mère », a confirmé Cellou Tata Diallo, le correspondant de la BBC à Conakry, en expliquant que le portier est donc reparti en France sans passeport guinéen. Il s’agit d’un gros couac pour la Fédération guinéenne (Feguifoot) qui s’est visiblement emballée en convoquant un joueur sans avoir effectué au préalable les vérifications d’usage sur le plan administratif. Rough translation: [Elana] did not manage to prove his links with Guinea, which made his naturalization collapse. ″On my mother’s side, I have ties to Guinea. It goes back to great-grandparents… But I didn't look any further to find out which city or region I am from,″ recently explained the former Martinique international (a selection not affiliated with FIFA, which allowed him to play for Guinea) to the centpourcentfoot.net website. ″Elana did not know which part of Guinea his grandmother came from,″ confirmed Cellou Tata Diallo, the BBC correspondent in Conakry, explaining that the goalie therefore left for France without a Guinean passport. This is a big blunder for the Guinean Federation (Feguifoot) which visibly got carried away by summoning a player without having first carried out the usual administrative checks.
 * http://www.foot224.co/2019/03/14/syli-national-les-23-de-paul-put-pour-affronter-la-centrafrique/ (hardly a reliable source either): no sentence found about Elana's ascendancy or ethnicity. This earlier article (14 March 2019) is about the list of players called to play for the 2019 CAN Guinea football team, which names Elana as a newcomer. This information will then be denied in the other article.

All which that leaves us is Elana's own declarations, which makes it a primary source.

This information (i.e. both the claim to Guinean descent and its invalidity) is worth being mentioned in the article, but it cannot justify placing Elana in a "Guinean descent" category, per the standards set in our guidelines. Specifically:
 * (WP:BLPCAT):
 * Category names do not carry disclaimers or modifiers, so the case for each content category must be made clear by the article text and its reliable sources.


 * Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality (WP:EGRS):
 * 4. As to the inclusion of people in a category related to ethnicity, gender, religion, sexuality, or disability, please remember that inclusion must be based on reliable sources.
 * For example, regardless of whether you have personal knowledge of a notable individual's sexual orientation, the article should only be added to a LGBT-related category after verifiable, reliable published sources that support the inclusion have been provided in the article.
 * 6. The "defining" principle applies to gendered/ethnic/sexuality/disability/religion-based categorization as to any other, i.e.:
 * In other words, avoiding categorizing by non-defining characteristics is a first step in avoiding problems with gendered/ethnic/sexuality/disability/religion-based categories.

On a side note, the word Guinea used to describe the entire region of West Africa, so the claim isn't even very clear geographically speaking.

I therefore think that these categories should be removed. I'm leaving a note on WikiProject Categories and WP:BLP/N in order to have additional input. Place Clichy (talk) 09:34, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * This article does not disprove he is of Guinean descent. The relevant part: "On my mother’s side, I have ties to Guinea. It goes back to great-grandparents… But I didn't look any further to find out which city or region I am from,″ recently explained the former Martinique international (a selection not affiliated with FIFA, which allowed him to play for Guinea). In fact, this is a reference that proves he is of Guinean descent. However, to play for a national team you have to abide by the Grandfather rule, and this is where Elana failed - he could not prove his grandmothers place of birth. Regardless, he is of Guinean descent, he just can't play for the Guinea national football team as it stands. And the categories are relevant to the page because of this whole ordeal.--Ortizesp (talk) 14:36, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * If the article does not prove or disprove anything, and we are left with the subject's own comments, then this is unreliable information. It can be mentioned in the article's body with all the disclaimers and modifiers that allow for it, but it cannot be featured in categories for the policy reasons stated above. Place Clichy (talk) 15:00, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Disagree completely, we have confirmation from the subject himself that he is of Guinean descent. This is affirmed by the Guinean FA in the article, which in fact confirms the policy reasons above. The only debate is what town his grandmother was born in, which doesn't change his ethnicity.--Ortizesp (talk) 17:38, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * You wrote it: we have confirmation from the subject himself that he is of Guinean descent. There is nothing else. This makes the information unreliable. The policy is therefore clear that the article cannot be, at this step, included in these categories. Place Clichy (talk) 23:03, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * We have an article where he himself says he is of Guinean descent, and the fact that he was called up to the Guinean team. That is all that is needed. The article itselfis the primary source, not the fact that the player says it. Added additional reference to his ethnicity.--Ortizesp (talk) 00:03, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Self-identification by living people is the gold standard for BLP. If President Donald Trump goes on the Colbert Show and says he is a woman born on Mars and has green blood, we use the appropriate pronouns and place her in Category:Martians with green blood. If Elana claims he is of Guinean descent, then who are we to judge? We categorize him accordingly and cite our sources in the article. Elizium23 (talk) 15:08, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Martiniquais categories
Re: with edit comment "he is undoubtedly a Martiniquais footballer, why remove these categories":
 * Martinique is not a nation, Martiniquais people are French nationals.
 * Elana was born in Aubervilliers, in metropolitan France, and his relationship with Martinique is not obvious. The following sentence was to the article without a source: Born in France, Elana is of Martiniquais descent through his father, and Guinean descent through his mother.
 * Elana played for the Martinique football team, however this is not a FIFA-sanctioned team, and they can select pretty much anybody they want which they deem has a link to Martinique, whatever the link.

This means that  Martiniquais fooer is often not defining (especially for people not from Martinique themselves), and that  French people of Martiniquais descent is highly redundant.

I suggest keeping the two DEFINING categories Category:Martinique international footballers and Category:French footballers, and removing the otherwise redundant or non-defining Category:Martiniquais footballers and Category:French people of Martiniquais descent as well as the Guinean descent categories discussed above. Apologies to User:UnitedStatesian for defending an edit you made, feel free to add something if needed. Place Clichy (talk) 15:28, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks that was exactly my thinking and I could not have said it better myself. UnitedStatesian (talk) 16:52, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Completely disagree. If he is a Martiniquais international footballer, he is also by definitiion a Martiniquais footballer. He is undoubtedly of Guinean descent. Martinique is not FIFA-sanctioned but is CONMEBOL sanctioned, and is a relevant national team. Your suggestions are broad and have huge connotations, as there are tons of footballers who identify themselves as Martiniquais. How is this different than English footballers who play for Wales/Northern Ireland/Scotland and keep their nationality categories. No offense, but these are ridiculous suggestions.--Ortizesp (talk) 17:33, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Just as in your example of an English footballer playing for Wales who did not stop being English, Elana is French and played for Martinique and did not stop being French. What is your source about him being of Martiniquais descent through his father? I guess that is not a wild guess. If it is, it should be swiftly removed from the article. I also notice that you broke the 3RR rule today on this article. Let me kindly remind you that you do not OWN this article, and that other editors' changes to the article are just as valuable as your own. You should not blindly revert changes and then discard suggestions brought up in talk page as ridiculous when they only seek to follow Wikipedia policy. I am confident that we will find consensus on how these policies apply to the categories of this article. Place Clichy (talk)
 * He remains French, and also is a Martiniquais footballer. He can be both simultaneously, which is why both categories remain. And he is undoubtedly of Martiniquais and Guinean ethnicity, added an additional reference. You are right that this statement -of Martiniquais descent through his father- is misattributed, so I have removed it for clarity.--Ortizesp (talk) 00:05, 12 May 2020 (UTC)