Talk:Stefan Banach

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Please start new discussions below this line.

Please do not retrieve discussions en masse from the archive; we won't know what issue you're trying to revive. If you want to continue a topic, just copy the relevant section from the archive to here, and add your new comments, preferably at the bottom where we can see them.--Kotniski (talk) 08:15, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Kraków
The name of the article is Kraków. If you don'y like the name, change it, but not discuss the subject here.Xx236 (talk) 14:05, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

This discussion page is repeatedly archived to hide the arguments opposing the chauvinistic Polish views
LOL.

There is an on-going systematic effort by User:Nihil_novi and few other extreme Polish nationalist characters to archive the content of the discussion page Talk:Stefan_Banach.

The discussion on this page contains many arguments and references on Ukrainian roots of Stefan Banach and on his contributions to Ukrainian mathematics.

Polish chauvinists attempted to initiate the discussion of the censorship purge of the article on Banach. To create a semblance of a "vote" supporting their censorship, User:Nihil_novi attempt to hide into the archive the discussions of the Banach Ukrainian roots and his contributions to Ukrainian mathematics.

The section Stefan Banach contains important and non-redundant facts on Banach's contributions to Ukrainian science and Ukrainian mathematics in particular. There are substantial plans to continue the work on expanding this particular section, as well as other sections of Stefan_Banach.

The on-going attempts of Polish extreme nationalist characters to impede the establishment of NPOV on Banach must be stopped! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.210.14.5 (talk) 00:30, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * It was not I who originally archived the previous discussions. But I do agree with that decision to archive.  I do not agree to 98.210.14.5 having moved my last entries without having consulted me.  Nihil novi (talk) 05:56, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Do you want to start another (2nd) section titled "Contributions to Ukrainian mathematics" and move your comments there? In my opinion, this would not be a really smart thing to do. But it is still better than the attempts on archiving censorship by User:Nihil_novi and User:Kotniski. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.210.14.5 (talk) 06:06, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Stefan Banach was a Polish mathematician. He was born in Kraków. When Banach was born, I think Krakow was a part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Now it is in Poland. I am interested in the history of mathematics and as far as I know, Banach is regarded as a Polish mathematician. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 06:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Masterpiece2000, thank you for your input, but your POV has already been stated numerous times by certain other editors. There are strong and well-argumented POVs that are in conflict with your POV. See the discussion above. We should try to separate the chauvinistic Polish propaganda from the facts and to arrive to NPOV. Censorship by User:Nihil_novi, User:Kotniski and the likes does not help us, Wikipedians, in that. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.210.14.5 (talk) 06:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * 98.210.14.5, I am not from Poland and I am not trying to push my POV. Stefan Banach is regarded as a Polish mathematician. And, that's not my POV. You can read about him. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 08:48, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Masterpiece2000 : please read this discussion and the references, cited in it. They contain a wealth of information on Banach's Ukrainian roots, as well as on criminal oppressive Pilsudski dictatorship and Polish-Nazi anti-Semitic regime during WWII. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.210.14.5 (talk) 17:35, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

All that i know about the origins of Banach i've learned from this talk page. I have not become convinced at all that he really was a Ukranian mathematician, but i am almost ready to accept that he was a Polish occupant. --Cokaban (talk) 18:49, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Latest edit warring
To explain in more detail the reasons for some of the reverts:
 * Every known source identifies Banach as Polish; he lived and worked as a distinguished Pole in independent interwar Poland. Continually demanding proof of his Polish nationality and Polish citizenship when there is absolutely nothing to suggest anything to the contrary cannot be regarded as good-faith contribution to the article. I would happily get rid of the "citizenship" line from the Infobox in fact, but his nationality is clearly Polish (see many discussions above).
 * I don't see the point of including these Ukrainian "works" published long after his death, unless we can have some more information about them. I presume they are simply translations of earlier works published in other languages, and in that case would not be of any particular note.
 * Some brief factual background on the political situation in 1944-45 (about a sentence's worth), linked to a more detailed article, to explain Banach's position at that time is hardly POV pushing, just helping the reader of the article to understand what's going on.--Kotniski (talk) 16:11, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The reader of the article will understand the "political situation" and "what's going on" much better if we state that in 1918-1939 Banach lived in a rogue state (so-called "interwar Poland"), ruled by dictators (Pisudski and his cronies), who came to power as a result of a military coup-d'etat, oppressing the ethnic minorities ("pacifikaciya" of Ukrainians, Rusyns, Germans and Jews), threatening the use of military force against its neighbors (Ukraine, Lithuania, Germany, Czechoslovakia) and committing a military aggression against its peaceful neighbors (Ukraine (1918-1920), Lithuania and Czechoslovakia (1938-1939)). The most terrible crime against humanity - Shoah, was committed on a Polish territory (1939-1945) and, largely, by willing Poles. Most Poles gladly collaborated with Nazi Germany. There are more Poles, who fought for Nazis and were taken as prisoners of war by Allies, than those who fought against the Nazis. Even more Polish Nazi collaborators escaped and are still not captured. Why are we omitting these important facts in this article, while re-stating many times that Ukrainians "occupied" Lviv, Ukraine and "re-settled" Poles back home to Poland? Many Banach colleagues, and he himself, suffered from the regime by Pilsudski and his cronies. Some even perished in Shoah, killed by Poles.


 * We should devote a special section in the article to explain the "political situation" and "what's going on" and stop the pro-Nazi anti-Ukrainian nationalistic POV pushing by Polish chauvinists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.210.14.5 (talk) 18:46, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Even if any of the above were fact and not opinion, it would still be totally irrelevant to the article on this mathematician. If you are interested in these political matters, why don't you try working (in accordance with WP principles, obviously) on some of the many articles we have on those topics.--Kotniski (talk) 08:34, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The facts mentioned in the above discussion are well-researched and well documented in the Wikipedia articles on these subjects - see for instance Category:Polish Nazi collaborators and many others. Mentioning both the criminal Pilsudski dictatorship and the Polish-Nazi regime during the WWII in this article is very relevant, as it explains why many mathematicians, who had a misfortune to live in Poland and to be Ukrainians, Jews or Germans, had to flee the country. It is definitely more relevant than mentioning the mythical "demonstration" of Poles in Lviv, liberated and re-united with the rest of Ukraine.


 * Love this :). 14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_Galicia_(1st_Ukrainian). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.56.72.160 (talk) 22:45, 24 August 2008 (UTC)


 * OK, this is probably WP:BEANS, but even though it does not belong here, I would like to see info on the number of Poles taken prisoner of war by the Allies (and I know Volksdeutsche joined the German army, but I hope you are not thinking of them), and I would like to know what pro-Nazi Poles did to Lithuania. Since you will no longer be able to edit this article, please start referenced articles on those two facts, which were complete mysteries to me. I have been searching the internet, but all I come up with is pages such as this. --Paul Pieniezny (talk) 08:58, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Many Volksdeutsche joined Polish army in the West, later many of them died or were injured.Xx236 (talk) 10:17, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Banach origins controversy
Banach was born and spent his childhood in the area populated by Rusyns and Ukrainians. In fact, his last name Banach (and the last name of his mother) is a very common Jewish name among both Rusyns and Ukrainians who lived in this area for millennia.

Banach survived the Nazi occupation of Poland during the Second World war, as well as the cruel interwar regime of the dictator-ruled Poland. Under Pilsudski dictatorship, civilian freedoms were curtailed and minorities of Poland (Ukrainians, Rusyns, Germans and Jews) were oppressed and discriminated. Many colleagues of Banach, being Jewish, suffered from anti-Semitic discrimination and were denied any chance of gainful employment in Poland ruled by the dictator Pilsudski and his cronies. Other members of minority groups, like Banach, were forced to downplay their ethnic origins and "look Polish".

The modern day resurgence of nationalism and anti-Semitism in Poland led to a controversy surrounding the coverage of the ethnic origins of Banach and other Rusyn and Ukrainian mathematicians. Decades ago, even Encyclopedia Britannica use to describe Banach as a "Soviet mathematician". Modern-day Polish chauvinists continue the Soviet and Nazi traditions of shameless lies, trying to claim Banach as a "Polish mathematician". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.210.14.5 (talk) 09:25, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I will not refer to you statement about Poles because I find them offensive. Regarding Banach: I read that Banach's father name was Greczek, he came from Polish mountains region and worked and lived in Krakow. His mother name was Banach and she was also from Polish mountains (Nowy Targ region). Banach many times underlined that he is a highlander. And BTW, this is what Banach's son confirms (and if I am to chose between words of Banach's son and your speculation that his surname may sound Ruthenian, I will go for his words, unless you could show me some facts). Also, Banach rejected von Neumann's proposal to migrate to the US, saying that no money would persuade him to leave Poland. Basienka (talk) 20:03, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Basienka: It is not offensive to raise an important issue of responsibility of criminal Polish regimes (Pilsudski dictatorship as well as Polish-Nazi and Polish-Soviet collaborations) for what they have done to Jews, Ukrainians and many others. Polish Anti-Semitism will not go unpunished. Same way as Poland will pay back the compensation for the suffering of Jews and the confiscated Jewish property during the criminal Pilsuldski, Polish-Nazi and Polish-Soviet regimes, Poles will pay the Ukrainians dearly for anti-Western anti-Ukrainian atrocities they committed in the past. There is no other way for you Poles, but accepting the reality. Polish propaganda efforts on claiming "Polish roots" of Banach and others are ridiculous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.190.247 (talk) 23:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I am sick and tired of such an anti-Polish propaganda. You call Banach son words "ridiculous"?! So what is not ridiculous? Your unsourced opinion? Give me one example of Polish nazi collaborators! While we cannot find any, we know numbers of Ukrainian Nazi collaborators and their crimes on Poles (Wolyn massacre and others). If anyone is about to pay, Ukrainians are the first! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.19.129.114 (talk) 21:33, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Category:Polish Nazi collaborators. --Tavrian 21:38, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Forgive me if I misunderstood you but I think that calling people who say Banach was Polish "Modern-day Polish chauvinists" is offensive. I am not defending here pre-second war Poland; it is not an article on this matter. We speak here about Stefan Banach and his origins- and on this matter we have Banach's son words, and he knows where his family is from and what are their roots... By the way, which other mathematicians do you refer to in your first post?.. Regards, Basienka (talk) 19:16, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

WP:DNFT.--Kotniski (talk) 20:25, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Known relatives
I removed the statement "He would pay for his son's education and be the only relative whom Banach would ever know personally. " since his biography says that he knew several relatives. selfworm Talk ) 23:07, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

B-class review failed
Two issues are of primary concern:
 * insufficient citations, including a poor ref/note (currently first footnote)
 * poor structure, with the work section inserted between two biographical sections, and creating confusion when compared to the works section. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; talk to me 19:35, 23 April 2012 (UTC)


 * It's good that you explain your reasons for the reclassification, and I agree with your criticism. But since when has B-class become something subject to a formal review process? Or am I misinterpreting your section heading, and this is just an informal individual review? —David Eppstein (talk) 20:49, 23 April 2012 (UTC)


 * It's for WikiProject Poland and it is more or less informal. We've been going through a bunch of articles and re-assessing/improving them. Volunteer Marek 20:57, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, ok, that sounds like a good thing to be doing. I was worried about WP:CREEP but it doesn't sound like that's much of a problem here. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:07, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Some of the more active WikiProjects do B-class reviews, the most prominent I know of is WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Requests. At WP:POLAND we try to review all articles, too. The way I do it is I check if all content is referenced, and the article is broadly comprehensive and neutral, in line with B-class as outlined at Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; talk to me 18:25, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

On a more substantive note, the tail end of the "education" section is not really about his education, and the "work" section is less about his mathematical works than it is about his biography for the middle period of his life. To me it looks like these three sections could more naturally be grouped as subsections of a larger "Life" or "Biography" section, retitled to make it more clear that the subdivisions are prewar, between the wars, and postwar. What do you all think? The article should also have a section outlining his important contributions to mathematics but that isn't really present in the article at present. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:13, 23 April 2012 (UTC)


 * One of the problems in reviewing the work of Banach is the term "linear operations" frequently used. Banach spaces are often function spaces and infinite-dimensional. Banach developed an understanding of continuous linear operators and bounded operators on such function spaces. Currently linear operator redirects to linear transformation, which is correct but insufficient.Rgdboer (talk) 21:33, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Some comments on the article
(following the note of v.M. at David Eppsitein's page). A few for now, I hope to add more tomorrow.

Style:


 * 1) 1st sentence in the lead: try to rephrase using the word mathematician only once
 * 2) 2nd sentence: replace one of the occurrences of founder with a different word. I would say "the founder of modern functional analysis" is a bit too strong.
 * 3) in Contributions: decpitalise "Functional Analysis"

Content:

1 B-spaces and Banach spaces: perhaps the first two paragraphs in the second chapter here could be merged (I guess other sources, perhaps also in English, can be found to confirm this information)

2V The sentence "Because the theorem did not require linearity of the space, but applied only to Cauchy spaces (complete metric spaces) it led to the Hahn–Banach theorem, which is one of the fundamental theorems of Functional Analysis." does not make much sense to me: a) Hahn-Banach is about linear spaces, b) I am not sure there is any connection at all between the Banach fixed point theorem and the Hahn-Banach theorem, c) "applied only to Cauchy spaces" - perhaps, "applied to any Cauchy spaces"?
 * v.M. - I see you have added a reference to Jahnke here. I do not have access to this book; as a courtesy, could you please cite this sentence as it appears there? Perhaps I miss something, but I do think it makes close to no mathematical sense. Sasha (talk) 21:51, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

3 I would add a sentence on Banach-Tarski, since this is perhaps the only result that can really be appreciated by a non-specialist. Something like "In 1924, together with Alfred Tarski, Banach showed that a solid three-dimensional ball can be decomposed into a finite number of disjoint pieces which can be glued together into two balls of the same size. This result is now known as the Banach–Tarski paradox."

4 unlike the other items in the list, Banach algebras and Banach manifolds were not invented by Banach (the former were named after Banach by Gelfand, if I am not mistaken, and the latter are probably an even later invention)

5 Hahn–Banach - perhaps add something about applications to convex optimisation? I will try to come up with a more detailed suggestion

Sasha (talk) 03:51, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Re 2 - yes, you're right, that's incorrect as currently written, it should be "any" not "only". Here is Jahnke.

Re 3 (and some of the other points) - this isn't complete yet. I haven't gotten to Banach-Tarski yet.

More generally, it has been a long time since I took analysis and I've forgotten most of it by now, so any help with the "Contributions" section would be much appreciated.  Volunteer Marek  05:51, 1 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I will try to think of more suggestions for this section. Sasha (talk) 18:24, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Situation of Lwów (Lviv, Lvov)
It is written on the table: "Died: August 31, 1945 (aged 53); Lwów, Poland (territory occupied by the Soviet Union)". Probably, this phrase expresses the fact that somebody disapproves the occupation and does not like for Lwów to be in the Soviet Union. I also would prefer for this city to be in Poland rather than in the Soviet Union. But Wikipedia should describe facts neutrally. On 31 August 1945 Lwów simply was situated in the Soviet Union, namely in the Ukrainian SSR. As for me, it is unnecessary to write about any occupation in this case; in Europe the war was finished before this date and thus there were simply territories of states which do not need to be called occupied. --D.M. from Ukraine (talk) 20:22, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I've changed death place to "Lviv, Ukrainian SSR, Soviet Union". Thanks.  Nihil novi (talk) 21:00, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think we should change references to the same city dating before WWII from the Polish to the Ukrainian spelling, but since it appears to be true that the permanent annexation of this region by the Ukrainian SSR happened before his death, I agree that this change is an improvement. I'm not sure when the officially accepted date of annexation is, but I assume it is no later than May 1945. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:20, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Soviet people
Hello, I visited the page to read about Banach and I found out that he's tagged as "sovied person". I find this quite ridiculous. I am also surprised that he's listed as Jewish, as I recently read a book about Lwow mathematicians and he was supposedly of Polish Gorals ancestry.
 * Agree. I found nothing anywhere supporting Jewishness, except a claim that his wife was jewish. In the absence of knowledge about how to mark templates as "dubious", I removed them both. St.nerol (talk) 11:29, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

"gymnasium is not english"
English does use the word "gymnasium" - a building for indoor sports activity. In some countries it means school. The revision to "school" is clearer. Just clarifying the description on that revision which was not accurate. 220.158.191.161 (talk) 10:23, 22 July 2022 (UTC)