Talk:Stephen Hsu

Feynman
Why is a college graduation picture of Peter and Feynman relevant to this article? Is there any link between Feynman and Peter beyond physics and caltech? Any physics student at Caltech in the 80s would have access to him in/after his lectures. Or are we to assume that Peter is a very important man because he took a photo with the great Feynman? Much of this article reads like a vanity blog. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:8000:9B02:A846:F830:C517:FB57:82A1 (talk) 17:14, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Charges against Steve Hsu
https://sites.google.com/view/petition-letter-stephen-hsu/home »To MSU President Samuel L. Stanley: We sign this letter asking you to keep Dr. Stephen Hsu in his position as VP for Research and Innovation and as a sign of support for Dr. Hsu. The charges of racism and sexism against Hsu are unequivocally false and the purported evidence supporting these charges ranges from innuendo and rumor to outright lies. (See attached letters for details - https://sites.google.com/view/petition-letter-stephen-hsu/additional-letters) We highlight that there is zero concrete evidence that Hsu has performed his duties as VP in an unfair or biased manner. Therefore, removing Hsu from his post as VP would be to capitulate to rumor and character assassination. ...«


 * 1) Robert Plomin, Professor, Institute of Psychiatry, Psychology and Neuroscience, King’s College London
 * 2) Sam Altman, CEO, OpenAI
 * 3) Jeffrey Scott Flier. Harvard University Distinguished Service Professor, Harvard Medical School, Former Dean, Harvard Medical School. US
 * 4) Shivaji Sondhi, Professor of Physics, Princeton University
 * 5) Alan Charles Kors, Henry Charles Lea Professor Emeritus of History, University of Pennsylvania
 * 6) Jonathan Haidt, Professor, New York University Stern School of Business, USA
 * 7) Hal Pashler, Distinguished Prof of Psychology, Univ of California, San Diego
 * 8) Robert A. Gordon, Professor of Sociology, Johns Hopkins University, (Ret.) Co-winner of AAAS Socio-Psychological Prize, 1975. Co-Director of The Project for the Study of Intelligence and Society.
 * 9) Scott Aaronson, David J. Bruton Centennial Professor of Computer Science, University of Texas at Austin
 * 10) Steven Pinker, Johnstone Family Professor of Psychology, Harvard University

I think these charges are unfounded but eventually this will be an issue for WP. tickle me 00:28, 19 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Anyone who's not following along is just going to be confused as hell by this post.
 * Since you posted links to the counter-petition, but not the petition itself, I will remind you that Wikipedia isn't a platform for advocacy.
 * I will also preemptively mention that Quillette is not a reliable source on Wikipedia, per WP:RSP.
 * Here are a couple of sources which appear reliable:
 * Here is a very brief, very rough overview of what this is about:
 * Hsu was trained as a physicist, but also has shown interest in biology and genetics, including the supposed science behind racialism and race and intelligence. He has also vocally advocated against consideration of race in college admissions.[etc.] He was controversially appointed to an administrative position at Michigan State University in 2012. Part of the reason this was controversial is because his past statements have been described as advocating eugenics. In 2017, while in this position, Hsu appeared on Stefan Molyneux's podcast. Molyneux is a white supremacist, and has been monitored by the SPLC since 2014. Hsu says Molyneux's controversial status was not well-known in 2017. A set of petitions were recently started to remove him from this administrative position. As far as I know, these petitions do not directly challenge his research or teaching positions, and administrative positions are not directly protected by academic freedom.
 * Apparently there are two petitions calling for his removal. One is a general petition, and the other is limited to MSU faculty. As of June 15, both had about 300 signatures. I have not bothered to peruse either of those to see who might be noteworthy, nor would this matter without reliable, independent sources. Grayfell (talk) 02:25, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Hsu was trained as a physicist, but also has shown interest in biology and genetics, including the supposed science behind racialism and race and intelligence. He has also vocally advocated against consideration of race in college admissions.[etc.] He was controversially appointed to an administrative position at Michigan State University in 2012. Part of the reason this was controversial is because his past statements have been described as advocating eugenics. In 2017, while in this position, Hsu appeared on Stefan Molyneux's podcast. Molyneux is a white supremacist, and has been monitored by the SPLC since 2014. Hsu says Molyneux's controversial status was not well-known in 2017. A set of petitions were recently started to remove him from this administrative position. As far as I know, these petitions do not directly challenge his research or teaching positions, and administrative positions are not directly protected by academic freedom.
 * Apparently there are two petitions calling for his removal. One is a general petition, and the other is limited to MSU faculty. As of June 15, both had about 300 signatures. I have not bothered to peruse either of those to see who might be noteworthy, nor would this matter without reliable, independent sources. Grayfell (talk) 02:25, 19 June 2020 (UTC)


 * You will preemptively assume bad faith and warn preemptively against Quillette, that isn't linked nor mentioned--on a *talk page,* for crying out loud. »Wikipedia isn't a platform for advocacy« -- that's terribly good to hear. tickle me 19:41, 19 June 2020 (UTC)


 * This talk page is not a forum for sharing info which you personally find interesting. Your comment was, presumably, a copy/paste from the petition itself followed by a single sentence of your own perspective. I say presumably, because the exact wording of the first paragraph is not included in the site. Either you chose to summarize this petition on behalf of whoever created it, or the site is being edited and updated. If the former, you're using this talk page for promotion. If the later, there's no indication of this change on the site itself, meaning that a petition was modified after people had signed it.
 * This petition gives no information on when it was started, or even who initially wrote it, and it dismisses substantial allegations against Hsu as "lies" without addressing any of the evidence presented. Instead of copy/pasting a website which fails WP:RS, discuss actionable changes to the article based on reliable sources. Grayfell (talk) 20:21, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * How is Quillette not a reliable source? And where is your evidence that Molyneux is a white supremacist?  Making broad claims requires at least some evidence no?  The SPLC is not a reliable source as they are extremely left-wing biased.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:62A0:1590:D821:508C:1087:10EA (talk) 17:39, 5 July 2020 (UTC)


 * He resigned. Regardless of what additional sources might say, this is significant to his career, and so it should be mentioned. Grayfell (talk) 03:39, 20 June 2020 (UTC)


 * This source explains some of the prior controversy over Hsu's work:
 * Grayfell (talk) 05:33, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Grayfell (talk) 05:33, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Revert
Important and factual background information about the resignation was added but has been reverted.

An edit giving factual information about the petition supporting Hsu was reverted. The factual information came directly from the petition, which was cited as a source. The reverted sentences do not make claims of opinion - they simply describe what is on the petition list of signatories. It is a matter of record that many prominent scientists and professors supported Hsu and, more importantly, Academic Freedom at US Universities.

Another edit which gave the research activity number for MSU was reverted. This cited an official MSU source for the data. The data also appears in annual National Science Foundation reports on US University R&D, which could also be cited if necessary.

The statement that Hsu was asked to resign by MSU President Stanley was sourced from Hsu's public statement on his blog and on twitter. No citation was given at the time for this edit but could easily be added.

These edits provide important background information about the resignation event. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:405:4401:1D10:EC1F:BDD7:72BB:5F74 (talk) 12:47, 21 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Hello. Since much of the information you added lacked any source, including apparently obscure info about Hsu's former company, this strongly suggests first hand knowledge. This raises two important points:
 * Please carefully review Conflict of interest. You may also find Plain and simple conflict of interest guide helpful. If you (or anyone reading this) is compensated for editing, you must disclose this information, per Paid-contribution disclosure.
 * Wikipedia is not a platform for sharing information you personally know to be true, per No original research. If you do not have a conflict of inters, you will still need to support all changes with published sources.
 * As for blogs and twitter, see WP:PRIMARY and WP:SPS. The importance of information is determined by reliable sources. Reliability is not pass/fail, and social media of individuals discussing themselves is usually less reliable than published independent sources. Generally, WP:SELFSOURCEs are used for non-controversially important details which lack better sources. Grayfell (talk) 19:44, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Additionally, the article should almost always use sources which directly mention Hsu by name. Information about related projects belongs elsewhere, and combining sources to reach a conclusion not made by either source is a form of original research known as WP:SYNTH. Grayfell (talk) 19:49, 21 June 2020 (UTC)