Talk:Steve Beshear/Archive 1

Major Problem: NO IMAGE
What's going on here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.85.24.5 (talk) 01:55, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

yeah seems like there used to be alot more stuff on this page 208.157.10.33 (talk) 01:11, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, every photo of the Govenor that is put up keeps getting deleted by the photo nazis. Sf46 (talk) 14:32, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Who keeps deleting the picture of Steve Beshear? It's better than no picture at all, and I took it myself! (HalynR1600) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.51.185.11 (talk) 20:28, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Poker Players Alliance
Is the Poker Players Alliance notable? seems to be a WP:SPA and inserting the material in a POV manner. Is it really important to include his stance on poker? Seems like a moot issue. We66er (talk) 05:09, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I removed this from this and numerous other articles. Please see  for reasoning. Guy (Help!) 09:33, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, the PPA is notable. The Poker Players Alliance has over one million members, and its efforts in KY have been widely covered by mainstream media:


 * - Op-ed: http://www.kentucky.com/589/story/553995.html


 * - Op-ed: http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081007/OPINION04/810070309/1016/OPINION


 * - Forbes (syndicated in many papers via AP): http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2008/10/06/ap5515715.html


 * - Local news coverage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8VPQxbD7Xk


 * - Local news coverage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qpi9L6fIhw


 * - Local news coverage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vsxq98vSNEc


 * - Newspaper article: http://www.murrayledger.com/articles/2008/10/08/top_story/news01.txt


 * - Newspaper article: http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081008/NEWS01/810080785/-1/cjextra


 * Cactusframe (talk) 22:37, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

OTHER
72.51.185.11, you can't just delete well-sourced information just because you don't like it. Cactusframe (talk) 12:28, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

70.20.79.4, "Removed this guy's reference to his own blog. Also, why should Beshear's positon on Poker take up half of his summary as governor? Please resubmit, appropriately sourced, and in proper proportion." You anti-poker zealots need to stop censoring the truth from this article. What do you mean by "this guy's own blog?" The source is the PPA KY State Director, which is perfectly relevant. The source is the Poker Players Alliance website. And, if you don't like the amount of space this takes, you should ADD MORE CONTENT. Cactusframe (talk) 04:18, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

PPA today officially rated Beshear "F-". Cactusframe (talk) 19:39, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

The Poker Players Alliance is a one million member non-profit advocacy group chaired by Sen. Al D'Amato. Anyone who wants to delete PPA's rating can delete all the NRA, Christian Coalition, ACLU, and other group ratings throughout Wikipedia as well, or can prove it's not worthy of inclusion (which requires more than "cmon, poker?"), especially for a politician who ran on a pro-gaming platform and little else. Cactusframe (talk) 17:31, 2 October 2008 (UTC) Edit Cactusframe (talk) 02:10, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * You are a WP:SPA account. Please demonstrate how the issue is relevant to the article and worthy of inclusion. Adding a press release doesn't make it worthy of inclusion. We66er (talk) 05:16, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not a WP:SPA account. I contribute to many articles on many topics.  The online gaming issue just happens to be an area of expertise of mine, so I happen to edit more in that arena than in others.  See below for the demonstration of relevancy. Cactusframe (talk) 14:42, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Fraternity brothers passage
In the latest version extant at the time of this input and several prior versions, the statement is made: "He was a fraternity brother of both Republican Congressman Ed Whitfield and Ernie Fletcher."

The supporting web reference is http://www.scdelts.com/NotableDelts.html. The significance of this fact is not apparent; it needs context or removal. It is true that both Mr. Witfield and Mr. Fletcher are prominent Kentucky politicians, which implies their fraternity membership may have implications for the careers of the three. However, bare facts without context which have the potential for encouraging speculation are not something that is generally useful in a biographical article. --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me ) 01:29, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

2007 election and criticism over state finances
The following passage appears in the article version extant at the time of this input: "Beshear also greatly attacked Fletcher because of a supposed financial shortfall which ended up being a $2 billion dollar increase in state revenue."

The supporting citation (#5 in the version reference) is for a U.S. Census table of state finances. The $2 billion figure is original research as it is currently presented; a calculation against he U.S. Census table is needed to arrive at the figure. Also, a citation is needed to support the purported attacks by Beshear on Fletcher; hopefully such a citation would refer to the $2 billion surplus. --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me ) 02:17, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. TylerKnew (talk) 02:28, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Concerns about sources
The edit war had as a major theme sources.

I have concerns about some of the sources, myself.

About http://www.stevebeshear.com/campaign/BioBeshear (reference 1 in latest version as of this input) &mdash; This source would appear to violate the self-published sources section of the biographies policy. --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me ) 01:13, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

About http://www.nndb.com/org/530/000041407/ (reference 2 in latest version as of this input) &mdash; I thought this source was quite ok until I looked a bit more deeply into the publisher. This is part of a private person's individual project to create an online association network of notable people; as such, it is not subject to editorial control that a site published by the fraternity itself or a periodical would be. I have tried to find a fraternity site that contains this information and have failed to date. This raises the possibility that, because the NNDB publisher does not cite sources, he might have obtained the fraternity membership information from Wikipedia itself. --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me ) 01:17, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I would say that it's fair to use the link to Beshear's campaign site for purposes of identifying where Beshear went to high school, although if a better source could be found, then that would be OK. One of the sources that was the subject of the vandalism attack was a county newspaper article which stated that Beshear, Congressman Ed Whitfield, and Kelley were Tri-Delts at the same time (in the same class I believe).  Ernie Fletcher being a member has no real reference since Fletcher was ten years after the three were in college together and should probably be deleted; otherwise the article could just be turned into a list of most famous Delts with no connection at all.  I was trying to work on expanding the Beshear biography to lessen the impact of Kelley's addition two months ago to the article, so I added the high school info and take responsibility for that. TylerKnew (talk) 01:27, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Looking at The Carlisle Weekly (Ext LINK) and the disputed reference (LINK), I am inclined to consider this to be a reliable source unless there is evidence to the contrary. --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me ) 02:35, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Regarding the Carlisle Weekly, the newspaper also references Beshear being Student Body President...could also be worth noting. I believe that if we do note that, then we can include his frat membership with parenthetical aside references for Whitfield and anyone else wiki-worthy out of that frat class. A whole paragraph about his education is worthy.  Another thing I would like to note is that other than the info box, there is no mention of his personal life or family, which would fit in well at the end or with the "Education and early career" heading. TylerKnew (talk) 02:50, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Found this source for Beshear being a grad of Dawson Springs High School and UK, hope this helps As far as being a Delt, there is the following link that previews a Herald-Leader article, .  Should be doubled up for both UK and Delta Tau Delta. TylerKnew (talk) 02:41, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * NNDB is never a reliable source. Using his personal site as a source would normally require something like "he claims" or "According to his website...".  Both statements are pretty trivial and since the sources are lame the lines should be removed. 2005 (talk) 01:36, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Current image (as of mid-June 2009)
The current image was uploaded by User:Troyblair26. The user claims that they are the sole copyright holder of the work, but states that the source is "official profile," presumably the Governor's. I attempted to contact the user, who was involved in the recent edits, but received no response. I think this claim is dubious and that the user falsely stated their rights to the image, and propose that it be deleted and replaced. There are several images on Flickr that I believe would be suitable replacements...any thoughts as far as proposing the current image, File:SteveBeshearofficial.jpg be deleted since clearly the rights belong to the Commonwealth of Kentucky government, not to User:Troyblair26. To clarify, the image in question is available on the Governor's official website at, or at. Obviously, the user does not have rights to this image and this is a flagrant copyright violation. TylerKnew (talk) 02:25, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Please go ahead and do so. I think you are likely right about this, and surely a free replacement can be found. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 12:47, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Went ahead and replaced it. Not the best image I'll admit, but it'll work.TylerKnew (talk) 06:27, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Edit war
Someone please take this edit war over Larry Kelley and online gambling to the talk page. I haven't gotten involved so far, but this is getting ridiculous. I can see inclusion of the gambling thing; I seem to remember it even getting some national press and it is germane to his term in office. I don't get the deal about Larry Kelley. They seem to be good friends, but unless there is a more tangible connection, it seems off-topic to me. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 21:24, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I've been telling those who keep vandalizing the Steve Beshear article to take any disagreements about the content to this talk page rather than continue to vandalize, harass, and in the case of User:Suspect99, possibly threatening editors with legal action (principally threatening myself, who didn't even write the statement originally).  Several editors have been warned about page blanking and deleting per guidelines.  Both the Larry Kelley (Kentucky politician) and the Beshear article have been mercilessly attacked in recent days following the appearance of this article on PageOneKentucky, one of the top political blogs in Kentucky.  Kelley is mentioned in the Beshear article (along with Ed Whitifeld) for the purposes of general biography.  Kelley was County Attorney in both Ballard County, KY and Lee County, KY.  Kelley, after going to prison for fraud convictions, was appointed to the Beshear transition team in 2007 and has met with Kelley on several occasions.  Malicious editors have been attacking the Kelley article to remove any reference to Beshear and vice versa.  To me, the information seems well-sourced and worthy of a one-sentence mention in the Beshear article.  Congressman Ed Whitfield is also referenced as having been a fraternity brother.  Regardless, something needs to be done about the continued attacks on the article by unregistered and newly registered users.TylerKnew (talk) 00:37, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I have requested admins to fully protect this page due to the edit war. Hopefully there will be a compromise soon. Willking1979 (talk) 00:47, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the dispute with User:Suspect99 has been resolved. Yes Willking1979, this article most definitely needs protection.  Until this article receives protection, I will keep undoing disruptive edits.  Let me know if this is going to be a problem.  Just to clarify and reiterate my above point, Kelley meets (definition as a former county-wide elected official and prosecutor in two different counties) the notability requirements for a Wiki article.  Kelley and Beshear have personal connections (including Kelley serving as best man at Beshear's wedding) and professional connections (Kelley served on Beshear transition team and is known to have the ear of the Governor by many county elected officials in Western KY, including Carlisle Co. Judge-Executive Greg Terry (sourced in the Kelley article).  Their relationship has been discussed in media (newspapers and recently on PageOneKentucky, cited in my above comment).  Thanks! TylerKnew (talk) 00:59, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

The Kelley connection is only relevant to readers in Ballard County: the rest of the world could care less...TylerKnew is grinding a personal axe here and this is not the forum for it —Preceding unsigned comment added by TylerKnowsYou (talk • contribs) 02:04, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * User is trying to harass others by adding personal info due to their suspicion since its referenced in the aforementioned PageOne source. We need to do something now...this is getting out of control.TylerKnew (talk) 02:24, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I have fully protected the page for 48 hours. Start a proper discussion and sort this out here please, instead of edit-warring on the article. Thanks. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 02:43, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Also, whoever just created that alt. account to mock TylerKnew - please don't do that again. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 02:45, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be clear consensus that Kelley is notable in the first place. (The article has been tagged for notability concerns since May 2009.) I propose this as a first step: Nominate the Kelley article for deletion. Notice, I'm not saying it should or should not be deleted or that he is or is not notable enough for a wiki-article. What I am saying is that a deletion nomination would let the community decide this. If the article is deleted, Beshear's connection to a non-notable figure probably doesn't merit inclusion in his article (unless, as stated before, it can be shown that he had a clear, specific, tangible impact on Beshear's policies or administration). If the article survives, the "Kelley is non-notable" argument (stated above as "no one outside Ballard County cares") comes off the table, and we can discuss whether the connection is relevant. Is this acceptable? Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 13:59, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Logically, I think that this makes perfect sense and is what should happen.TylerKnew (talk) 17:27, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The Kelley article is currently listed at AfD, per this discussion. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 16:34, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Education
I have deleted the currently controversial education information until a mutually agreeable statement can be found, as it is agreed that the current sources for the education information (as of the edit block) are unsatisfactory. From what I gather, User:Ceyockey and myself agree that the Carlisle Weekly is a WP:reliable source. That source states that Steve Beshear, Congressman Ed Whitfield, and Larry Kelley (Kentucky politician) were in law school in the same fraternity at the same time. The following article from the Lexington Herald-Leader confirms this. . Logically, it makes sense to include “wiki-worthy” individuals who have a connection to the subject within the article. The Al Gore article notes that Tommy Lee Jones and Gore were once roommates. Being a United States Congressman, Ed Whitfield meets the notability requirement. I am of the opinion that Kelley is wiki-worthy under WP:POLITICIAN. 25 sources on that article satisfy the requirement for independent coverage I believe (and is more than the current Steve Beshear article, even after I added sources. It is noted in the Adam Lambert article that he and Kris Allen are currently roommates.  I think using these two precedents as arguments, Kelley and Whitfield should be included.  Fletcher should not be included because he was not in the fraternity at the same time as Beshear, thus his inclusion risks turning the article into a list of most famous Delts.  It seems as though the following should qualify as reliable for noting that Beshear is a graduate of Dawson Springs High School.   Therefore, I propose that the education section be added back and look something like this:

Heading: Education and family

"Beshear was born in Dawson Springs, KY, raised in Hopkins County, KY and graduated from Dawson Springs High School. (Whitlock) Beshear matriculated to the University of Kentucky, where he was elected Student Body President as an undergraduate and was a member of Delta Tau Delta, along with future Congressman Ed Whitfield and prosecutor Larry Kelley. (Carlisle Weekly) (Lexington Herald-Leader) Beshear was accepted into the University of Kentucky College of Law and graduated with a law degree. (Carlisle Weekly) (Whitlock)

Beshear married Jane Klingner of Bowling Green, KY in 1969. Kelley served as best man at their wedding. (Carlisle Weekly) Jane Beshear is a former schoolteacher and avid horserider. Steve and Jane Beshear have two children, Andy and Jeff, the oldest of the two. Jeff Beshear has one son, Nicholas. "

What do you think? Can we obtain any kind of consensus? TylerKnew (talk) 07:11, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * First of all, the early political career expansion was needed, edit war or not, so thanks for that. However, you want to be careful that the sources you cite cover all the claims you make. For example, the sentence "Beshear was re-elected by winning the 1975 Democratic primary against Jerry Lundergan, who later was elected to the Kentucky House and became Chair of the Kentucky Democratic Party, prevailing by about 200 votes." is cited to a source for election results. While that supports the "200 votes" part of the statement, it says nothing of Lundergan's subsequent offices, etc. While I don't dispute those offices and they provide a good deal of helpful context, those need to be cited as well.
 * Second, as noted above, I've nominated Larry Kelley (Kentucky politician) for deletion, per the discussion above. Let's see how that turns out before we reintroduce him into the text. As for the linkage to Whitfield, I'm OK with that staying.
 * My major concern with the second mention of Kelley is that it shows the friendship between the two, but doesn't show any tangible results of that in terms of Beshear's political positions or administration. Given that Kelley is a convicted felon, that could lead to folks to an unwarranted "guilt by association" conclusion, which is a particularly bad result in a WP:BLP. Before we dive into that any further, though, let's see how the Kelley AfD turns out. Fair enough? Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 16:47, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * More than fair, it had been a few days and there wasn't any discussion arguing against it, so I figured that we were fine with it. I have replied in the AFD discussion. TylerKnew (talk) 17:51, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Very well, since there was a unanimous consensus to delete the page, I propose restoring the Whitfield references...is that alright? The Carlisle Weekly reference or another will need to be readded since it is the only source for the Beshears being married in 1969...I'll try to find another. TylerKnew (talk) 18:19, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Unless we can qualify this as a WP:reliable source, we may be stuck with the Carlisle Weekly.TylerKnew (talk) 18:24, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Slight error.
Um, where they talk about his ancestors they are actually listing his descendants. Someone should really fix that, I tried, but couldn't. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.64.104.4 (talk) 02:24, 6 November 2012 (UTC)