Talk:Steve Ditko/Archive 1

Citation request
RE: The Tales to Astonish Incredible Hulk feature, which states that artist Dirko "... developed the notion of Bruce Banner becoming the Hulk under extreme emotional stress, rather than with the rising of the moon or other, previously muddled reasons." Please give citation that states that this was not primarily the work of writer-editor Stan Lee, or Lee and Ditko co-plotting. Thanks. -- Tenebrae 00:56, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Footnote 11 refers to a book, which implies the quote is from there. However that book is sourcing an interview with Steve Ditko. It appeared in a fanzine produced by Mike and Richard Howell called Marvel Main. Issue #4, published in 1969.

John Bacon the Information Broker Infobroker 05:32, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Ditko, The Goblin and Departure
We've heard this story about the Goblin Unmasked controversy but it is a myth. In an article for WIZARD MAGAZINE Ditko and Tom DeFalco talked about Ditko's departure. Again, I don't have the material with me at this time. However...

Stan Lee said Ditko had stopped delivering his drawings to Marvel himself and had started using messangers.

Ditko intimated: that Lee had no idea what was in Ditko's plots at that point until he saw the drawings, so there wouldn't have been a conflict over the Goblin. Indeed, The Norman Osborn character had begun appearing in many Ditko Spidey stories and was even identified (but not named) by J.J.J as a fellow member of a club Jonah belonged to. And as we saw, Ditko did draw the story(Amazing Spider-Man 37) when Osborn revealed he was up to something.

DeFalco commented that Ditko was fed up with "meddling" and the final straw was when Martin Goodman wanted to include more "romance" in the strip. In fact, Ditko was replaced by John Romita, a former artist of romance comics. DeFalco also noted that Ditko put a lot of "himself" in Spidey so this was especially bothersome. In Ronin Ro's book, Tales To Astonish, an anonymous(I think) third party claims that Goodman reneged on a "promise" he may or may not have made to Ditko and Kirby concerning Spidey and the FF. Along with the issues mentioned above, Ditko decided to leave and encouraged Kirby to do the same. Kirby couldn't because of familial obligations but Ditko left anyway. I don't know how much credibility should be given to Ro's book but Mark Evanier did confirm that Goodman changed his mind about a promise he made to Jack so this last part may not be far off concerning Steve. I will provide citations for the info I have, at a later date. Bernard ferrell (talk) 19:05, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

The Steve Ditko\Tom DeFalco information is from the article WHO IS STEVE DITKO? by Christopher Lawrence, WIZARD #124 Jan 2002 issue.Bernard ferrell (talk) 15:58, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Comics B-Class Assesment required
This article needs the B-Class checklist filled in to remain a B-Class article for the Comics WikiProject. If the checklist is not filled in by 7th August this article will be re-assessed as C-Class. The checklist should be filled out referencing the guidance given at Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment/B-Class criteria. For further details please contact the Comics WikiProject. Comics-awb (talk) 17:35, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Done. It fails as it lacks a photo (which is clearly going to be a sticking point as he is a little on the reclusive side) and there are requests for sources on the page and other statements that need sourcing (I'll come back and flag those after the B-class assessments). It is a good solid article and addressing the issues should set it up well for when folks want to drive it on to higher classes. (Emperor (talk) 19:19, 9 August 2008 (UTC))

Removal of eyewitness quotes and Ditko's own writing
While I disagreed with the removal of the mention that Ditko was credited as character co-creator on the movie Spider-Man, reasonable people can disagree on whether that type of recognition was a major non-comics medium is significant; I think it is, but you can't win 'em all.

The wholesale removal of sourced and relevant eyewitness accounts of Ditko's life circumstances, and Ditko's own views of his creativity and his creation, seems unjustifiable &mdash; certainly so without any discussion. Removing additional footnotes at a statement about personal philosophical beliefs I also believe is unjustified &mdash; if something so amorphous can have multiple citations, especially given the link rot we've seen here with the disappearance of "Ditko Looked Up", is actually crucial.

Let's please do no more wholesale deletions of important material without discussion first. -- Tenebrae (talk) 15:14, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Simply listing quotes people have said about Ditko without context does not add to the encyclopedic coverage of the subject. Also, you don't need more than one citation to verify that Ditko follows Ojectivism. The first citation does that adequately. If you wanted to reference something specific from the Silver Bullet Comics links, then that'd be a different matter. WesleyDodds (talk) 07:45, 4 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Removing other people's WP:RS references is simply wrong; there is nothing in Wikipedia's guidelines that preclude additional citations; indeed academic writing frequently offers more than a single citation, particularly on a point regarding something as amorphous as people's beliefs. Short of a citation by Ditko himself saying, "I follow Ayn Rand's philosophy of Objectivism," ascribing a belief system to him in fact should have more than one citation. Please do not remove valid citations; citations are the heart and blood of Wikipedia.


 * The way to handle a valid eyewitness description that you feel is out of context by being in the Quotes section is to place it in context, not remove it. I have done so. --Tenebrae (talk) 16:49, 4 February 2010 (UTC)


 * You'll see I've attempted a compromise version on the quotes, adding McLaughlin and Ditko in context, leaving out the Giordano quote you removed, and additionally removing the Evanier quote for the lack-of-context reason you mentioned. I'm hopeful that this compromise is acceptable. -- Tenebrae (talk) 19:18, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * You still don't need the Silver Bullet Comics references as used. If you are citing something from the columns aside from "Ditko is an ardent supporter and advocate of the philosophy of Objectivism", which is not hard at all to verify (and can be supported simply with the Salon link, or honestly any other single reference, like this Ditko biography I have currently checked out), then it's perfectly fine to use it. Otherwise, it's best left to the external links. If one reference clearly establishes "Ditko is an ardent supporter and advocate of the philosophy of Objectivism", then you don't need additional references. The information only needs to be verified once, unless the second references backs up something in the sentence not supported by the first. WesleyDodds (talk) 08:54, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Due to the volatility of the web, web-based citations are in danger of disappearing at any time. A single citation from a reputable book or newspaper is likely sufficient, but a single web citation of an important fact puts it in danger of being uncited and removed in the future. Also, sometimes an editor will put a fair bit of work at finding citations, work which may not be duplicated by future editors. To delete citations without enough respect for others efforts, in the long run will diminish the quality of wikipedia.BashBrannigan (talk) 17:29, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It's a redundant ref. You're not losing anything by removing it. What I'm getting at is if the Silver Bullet Comics columns are to be used, they should be used to reference material that can't be referenced by any other source. WesleyDodds (talk) 00:56, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Blockquote usage
Blockquotes were being used for short, three-line quotations, in a way contrary to Wiki MOS:

Block quotations

Format a long quote (more than four lines, or consisting of more than one paragraph, regardless of number of lines) as a block quotation, which Wikimedia's software will indent from both margins. Do not enclose block quotations in quotation marks (and especially avoid decorative quotation marks in normal use, such as those provided by the template, which are reserved for pull quotes).

--207.237.230.157 (talk) 03:35, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Lead
I support Stoshmaster's revamped, Sept. 7 version of the lead. He's correct that we need to fill it out as an article summary a la Jack Kirby. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:39, 7 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't support it. Yes, the lead needs to be expanded, but they way Stoshmaster expaned it is not representative of Ditko's entire career which is a requirement of a lead. Worse, it's overly negative and POV. If I have to, I'll write one myself rather than leave the current monstrosity in place. BashBrannigan (talk) 21:48, 7 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I created a proper lead. This is balanced to reflect his overall contributions to the industry. BashBrannigan (talk) 18:05, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Ditko's "DC Profiles" contribution
In the late 1970s/early 1980s, a series of "DC Profiles" appeared on the "Daily Planet" pages of DC Comics. These profiles were short biographies of the people working for DC at the time. Ditko chose to contribute a drawing of his creations to "let his work speak for him." Here's a link http://www.ditko-fever.com/dcprofile58.html It can be found in Batman #322 (http://www.comics.org/issue/34253/) and The Legion of Super-Heroes #262 (http://www.comics.org/issue/34264/) (both cover dated April 1980). This is, I believe, an excellent example of Ditko's quote that "When I do a job, it’s not my personality that I’m offering the readers but my artwork."

Mtminchi08 (talk) 16:54, 31 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Wow! What a great image! I'll look for where the mention is in the article and footnote it. --Tenebrae (talk) 17:17, 31 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually, I'm not sure where to put this. I was going to add it to the ELs, but we already have a Ditko-fever.com link in the footnotes. --Tenebrae (talk) 17:21, 31 July 2011 (UTC)


 * How about in the "Personal Life" section with footnotes to the published comics themselves? Mtminchi08 (talk) 20:00, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

J.
What is Ditko's middle name, i.e. what does the J. in his name stand for? 83.251.154.202 (talk) 23:59, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

other comics / personal life
Many many years ago, a friend of mine, a collector, came across a Ditko book from (I think) the early 1960s, which was essentially a propaganda piece about how evil communism was, and how great capitalism was. Now this fits well with his following Ayn Rand's philosophy, but still I think it might be a good idea – if any of the collectors out there could verify – to add a section on these comics. Also, the section on personal life: maybe it would be well to acknowledge within that section that almost nothing is known about his personal life because that's the way he wants it. Theonemacduff (talk) 02:56, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

"Ditko Looked Up" website gone?
All the article's links to Blake Bell's invaluable website "Ditko Looked Up" (www.ditko.comics.org) which supplied many key elements in this biography, seem to be dead, and a Google search for the site turns up only the old, dead URL. Does anyone know of a WebCitation.org or other archival link for this material. The site's disappearance marks a serious blow for Ditko scholarship. -- Tenebrae (talk) 20:08, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * It's available on the Wayback Machine. -- Calion | Talk 16:34, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Plotting credit
This bit: "Ditko eventually demanded credit for the plotting he was contributing under the Marvel Method." is misleading. Stan Lee makes clear in an interview in Searching for Steve Ditko that Ditko was not using the Marvel Method in the comics in which he is credited with plotting; instead he delivered finished artwork for Lee to script, with Lee having no involvement in the writing process up to that point for the comic in question. -- Calion | Talk 17:01, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Ditto this: "which Lee eventually acknowledged by giving the artist plotting credits on the latter part of their 38-issue run." Ditko got credited differently because he was doing different work, not because Lee wanted to acknowledge work Ditko had already been doing.  -- Calion | Talk 17:31, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

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Steve Ditko created Doctor Strange NOT Stan Lee
Doctor Strange creator Steve Ditko: the reclusive 'square' who made ... www.telegraph.co.uk › Film Oct 25, 2016 - Everyone knows Stan Lee. ... Strange creator Steve Ditko: the reclusive 'square' who made Marvel weird, then disappeared. Marvel's Doctor Strange ... Lee had an idea for a new superhero, initially called Spiderman (no ... Doctor Strange Creator Steve Ditko Is the "J.D. Salinger" of Comics ... www.hollywoodreporter.com/.../doctor-strange-creator-steve-ditko-is-jd-salinger-com... Nov 4, 2016 - Stan Lee and others look at the legacy of the enigmatic artist: "He was always a ... How Doctor Strange Creator Steve Ditko Became the "J.D. Salinger" of Comics ... won't be hearing from: the person who created the Sorcerer Supreme. ... He grants no interviews, and quietly continues working on comics with ... Steve Ditko: Doctor Strange's reclusive creator - The Globe and Mail www.theglobeandmail.com › Arts › Film Nov 3, 2016 - Ditko's solo creation, Doctor Strange, is the latest Marvel ... While Smilin' Stan Lee's Hitchcock-ish, camera-mugging cameo is a sure thing, viewers ... belief that in life there is only good and evil, with no mushy moral middle. Steve Ditko: The Father Of DOCTOR STRANGE | Birth.Movies.Death. birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/10/31/steve-ditko-the-father-of-doctor-strange Oct 31, 2016 - Steve Ditko: The Father Of DOCTOR STRANGE ... Ask your average Joe and he'll tell you Stan Lee created all the Marvel ... to do with the creation of Captain America, and he's not the sole creator of any other character. Lee ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.167.39.149 (talk) 08:28, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

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Ditko's son?
The article mentions that according to Will Eisner, Ditko has one son. In the same paragraph, it mentions this immediately after informing us that Steve Ditko has a nephew also named Steve Ditko who is also an artist. So which Steve Ditko is it that has the son?137.198.20.48 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:44, 7 September 2011 (UTC).


 * That's a valid point. I'm not sure why Eisner would be talking about any Steve Ditko other than the Spider-Man co-creator Steve Ditko, but without the actual quote and context from the cited book, we can't tell. Maybe the editor who added that cite can add the book's passage about it to the footnote? The template has a "Quote" field just for that kind of thing. --Tenebrae (talk) 23:49, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

The revised page now says that Eisner stated that Ditko had a son out of wedlock. Are we sure that the source specifies this? I vote for reverting back to the original version where it is said that "According to Will Eisner, Ditko had one son but this might be conflating the nephew...". The new wording makes it look like Eisner knew a lot more than most others about Ditko's personal business, despite never having worked with him to our knowledge. Besides, a gentleman of Eisner's generation and era probably would have just left it at "He's got one son as far as I know." without going into details that he might happen to know about another man's personal business. The only anecdote I know of about Ditko and Eisner is Ditko's refusal to open up to Eisner (ironically one of Ditko's own idols) for a book that Eisner was allegedly writing about comic artists. Eisner claimed that "I couldn't get anything out of him. It was like talking to a Russian commisar". This anecdote comes from Blake Bell's 2008 book. It doesn't seem like Eisner would know something about Ditko that Stan Lee, Jim Shooter, Eric Stanton, or anyone else who actually closely worked with Ditko wouldn't also know (or accidentally find out). And it seems improbable that he would confide something like this to anyone, let alone a man whom he idolized as a master in the field. As stated above, if we had the text to that passage in the source, we could be a lot clearer on the issue, but I think consensus agrees that Eisner was,in all likelihood, honestly assuming nephew Steve Ditko was Steve Ditko junior and that there must be a Mrs. Ditko (or perhaps ex Mrs. Ditko) somewhere as well.Mr. ATOZ (talk) 17:00, 7 July 2018 (UTC)