Talk:Steve Fossett/Archive 2

GA Review
I don't see anything wrong with this article. A number of suggestions, however.
 * Need more pictures!
 * Remember to continue updating this article accordingly as to what happened to Fossett. Good friend100 18:04, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Good read, well researched, well documented, keep up the good work, team! Check-Six 20:36, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Checking this article as a third-reviewer, I don't see any major issues with the Good Article criteria, so I will let the decision of Check-Six stand. It seems to be complete, and fairly well written, and is very well referenced. There is a minor issue in that there is no source for his glider records, so this needs to be added. Also, with respect to reference citation formatting, it's generally not acceptable to put the quotes from the article in the inline citation itself; citations should only include the author, title, publication, date of publication, date of retrieval, etc. Quoting in here just adds unnecessary bulk to the article. Also, reference #32 to the cnn.com page does not have a full description, and the link is a 404 not found, rendering this reference useless as a citation.

Other than these issues, I think this article is good, and can remain at GA status. Good work! Dr. Cash 06:17, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

philanthropy
There is no mention of philanthropy. I believe Mr Fossett, an Eagle Scout himself contributed funds to many organizations, including the creation of the Fossett Sailing Base at Owasippe Scout Reservation, run by the Chicago Area Council, BSA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owasippe mentions the "J. Stephen Fossett" sailing base at Owasippe. The base has existed for more than 10 years on the shores of Big Blue Lake at the camp. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.118.147.187 (talk) 17:52, 20 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Find some references and add them, but we cannot use wikipedia as a reference but with some reliable refs we certainly should add this to the article. Thanks, SqueakBox 18:00, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

template changed
I changed the template to one that mentioned that he is presumed dead, not dead. Mrs.EasterBunny (talk) 19:51, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Commons
I thought there might be no link to Commons because there were no more images there than here, but there are clearly more of them. Strangely, there is no category or gallery of him though, which I suggest someone create. Would do it myself, but I have to leave now. Richard001 (talk) 08:48, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

new source
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1039731/Secret-lovers-Hidden-bank-accounts-And-sign-plane-wreck-Did-Richard-Bransons-balloon-buddy-fake-death.html

The Daily Mail also speculated that Fossett did not die citing that the aircraft he used was one that he disliked but that could be easily dismantled. They also cite that he did not wear his GPS watch nor filed a flight plan, two things that he usually did when flying.

The above is only two sentences. This doesn't overwhelm the article but adds knowledge. I can't add this to the article for some reason. Fossett&amp;Elvis (talk) 18:31, 30 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't see that it adds any particular knowledge. It's a Daily Mail tabloid article, rife with errors and misdirection. It alleges all sorts of stuff with no substantiation. Davis, it's central source, is definitely not impartial, he has a vested interest in the topic.BoKu (talk) 20:31, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * All it tells me is that the writers clearly have little aviation knowledge. Flight plans are mainly used for point to point, IFR flights. For a sightseeing VFR flight, it would have been very unusual, and impractical, to file a VFR flight plan. I seriously doubt that anyone from the Daily Mail has ever dismantled a Bellanca. I have...and it's not that easy, especially for a single person.  AK Radecki Speaketh  17:37, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Steve Fossett might not have crashed at all!
I think for the past past seven months or so, the assumption has been that, he (Steve Fossett) has crashed somewhere. As far as it seems there should be at least a 10% chance that he never crashed anywhere, or he simply landed somewhere he did not want any body to know or he for some reason was forced to land somewhere by someone, and then something bad happened to him. All I am suggesting is that, we should be open minded to the possibility that the mater should be also criminally investigated by the police. I just think it would be worth to look at this case from this angle too. Please read more carefully, I am not suggesting any conspiracy theories I am talking about a 10% chance of other possibilities after all you don’t have any proof that he crashed anywhere do you? Thanks for reading,

B. Abadi North Vancouver Canada —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.157.240.154 (talk) 05:25, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I repeated the same thing to myself about Amelia Earhart when I was a little girl, that she found herself a sweet predator-free tropical island for her and her beaut to dally the rest of their days in.99.226.65.111 (talk) 03:40, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * This isn't the place for conspiracy theories. True, he might have had to make a forced landing rather than crashing, but even then, if you really understand how vast an area this desert is, and the fact that he had no survival equipment, it will become apparent that even then his chances of survival were slim. Unless he shows up in Mojave on the 28th for the rollout of the plane being named after him, let's leave the conspiracy theories to that other Nevada location.  AK Radecki Speaketh  14:26, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I think discussion of the conspiracy theory is valid. It might not be true, but the conspiracy itself exists, and applies to the subject of this article.  So spare us your petty arrogance. 98.221.133.96 (talk) 11:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure, discussion of it is valid, no question about that. At issue is the degree to which such speculation belongs in an encyclopedic article. There's already a paragraph on the pseudocide topic, and I'm not averse to seeing that section grow a bit as new information arises or credible authorities weigh in on the topic.BoKu (talk) 14:58, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Reason for Psuedocide
Investigators have questioned Fossett's financial situation, his choice of a light aircraft for the flight, and the fact he left his global positioning system watch at home. Should this be added? Although I have also heard the reason for a speculated "psuedocide" is the life insurance company doesn't want to pay the $50 million. *sorry, I signed the post before login in* Arthur Curry (talk) 16:22, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * When I go on short or vague flights, I never file a flight plan, and might leave the GPS in the car. If he was just doing a little sightseeing or searching, those are hardly suspicious or foolhardy.  Flight plans have a hassle component: if you change your mind about the route, time, or destination, an amendment is needed, or cancel the filing—why file one then?  If you don't know where you're going, a flight plan becomes useless.
 * I take it as a given than no insurance company wants to pay a claim, even when there is zero question it's valid. Any increase in doubt probably serves to exponentially increase their resistance.  —EncMstr (talk) 16:35, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd say that it's just weasel words unless we can provide the name of the investigator (or at least the name of the investigating agency) and a citation to a credible report. Without names and cites it's all a bunch of he-said-she-said.BoKu (talk) 16:38, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * GPS; Don't cellphones have those? This was like, in 2007, and don't almost every cellphone could be traced by then?  That would have made the search a lot easier.  As for why he left his GPS at home, well, maybe his vast experience has left him /arrogant/, that happens.  You coasted through a million storms and you get yourself a false sense of immortality. 99.226.65.111 (talk) 03:40, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Location of the wreckage
Please check the coordinates 38° 29'11.97"N, 118° 59'38.80"W in Google Earth. This must be the location of the crashed plane. Source itsme (talk) 23:06, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This isn't really the right place for that - this is for discussing the article, not searching for him. -- Mark Chovain 23:56, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
 * And we don't know the expertise of the reviewers of the source. (SEWilco (talk) 00:09, 28 November 2007 (UTC))


 * A map put out by the local sheriff seems to indicate it was in the Ansel Adams Wilderness around 37.669°N, -119.131°W -71.140.63.206 (talk) 21:01, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Changing the year of death
As there is no credible evidence of when Fossett died, or if he died, I am changing the 2007 deaths category to Year of death unknown (or Year of death disputed). --AEMoreira042281 (talk) 14:43, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Obviously the above point is moot now, but if human remains are located it may be possible to say he died on the same day he went missing. 23skidoo (talk) 14:33, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No, it's not moot unless you have evidence that his remains have been found. Any claims not supported by tangible evidence are speculation. SeeWP:VERIFY. &mdash;Danorton (talk) 17:34, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I actually disagree that there is any real disagreement as to the year of death. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of sources by far, even before the discovery of the wreckage, including the court declaration, consider he died on or soon after he went missing, definitely within 3 months. The fact that one or two newspapers ran the odd sensationalistic story doesn't mean there is genuine dispute anymore then there is a dispute as to who was behind the September 11th attacks (note the article isn't in a Attacks by unknown parties cat). The only thing which perhaps suggests a dispute is the insurance company. If the insurance company genuinely disputes he's dead then that's definitely a dispute worth noting. On the other hand, the source provided is not clear on whether the insurance company disputes he's dead or just that one investigator. So IMHO the cat should probably go back in per WP:UNDUE. It's probably fine to leave the section on pseudocide theories provided it doesn't get longer then it is currently. P.S. Obviously we can't say precisely when he died, but that's quite different from saying his year of death is unknown Nil Einne (talk) 20:06, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * There's reasonable doubt, there's what we believe, and then there's facts and statements supported by reliable secondary sources. Those sources don't indicate that the death is known. They indicate that the death declaration is known and they indicate they many (most?) believe he's dead. Let's leave the death as unknown for now and give them some time to search and analyze some more. Let's see what the conclusions of the reliable secondary sources are. I think this can wait a few weeks. This is an encyclopedia, not a daily news source. Wikipedia's foundation is not on what we believe is true, it is on what we can verify through reliable secondary sources. &mdash;Danorton (talk) 20:23, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I think you're missing my point. I'm saying that the vast majority of reliable secondary sources agree he's dead, and died at the time of or not longer after the crash and this was BEFORE the latest developments (in other words, the latest developments have nothing to do with it). Yes, we may get the odd sensationalistic story, but these are more akin to conspiracy theories about Elvis or September 11th then real disagreements that he's dead. If you disagree with that, I guess that's up to you. As it stands, it's a moot point since although I stand by my claims, it's not yet clear enough for us to come out an say it. (One of the unfortunate, although necessary aspects of wikipedia is that when something is bluntly obvious to most people, no one actually bothers to say it since it's bluntly obvious and so we can't say it either.) Nil Einne (talk) 20:29, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually I withdraw my comments. While I still don't think there is substanial/resonable disagreement he's dead, even before the discovery of the wreckage (look at this for example), most sources aren't as explicitly as I suggested. Actually in retrospect it's not really that surprising. From read the sources, I think it's quite clear most of them don't doubt he's dead and died either on or not longer after the crash, however they don't just come out and say it, since that's not really the way the media works in cases like this. To be clearer on this matter, we'd need to wait until further in the future, when all the biographies and articles which mention him, mention him as presumed dead or dead after a crash in 2007. However given the latest developments we probably won't need to wait that long Nil Einne (talk) 20:27, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually on further thought, year of death unknown is completely wrong. Firstly, it implies that he either died in 2007 or 2008. It doesn't imply he may still be alive which is the main other contention. Secondly according to the description "This category is for people known to be dead but whose year of death is lost to history and never likely to be known". Perhaps 50 years from now you could argue the cat would be appropriate, but definetely not now. The best fit cat is perhaps Category:Disappeared people. Nil Einne (talk) 20:58, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, I think Glenn Miller and Amelia Earhart are good examples here. Note in both cases their years of death are listed as 1937 and 1944. Obviously with the benefit of hindsight we can see most the vast majority of sources agree on the year of death as would have happened in this case even without the wreckage. I strongly suspect that similarly, not that long after their death most sources already agreed when they died eventhough they perhaps didn't say it. In other words, it's not as if in those cases (or this case) people came to believe over time that they must have died around the time they went missing. It's that most sources already agreed quite early, they just didn't say it explicitly. This doesn't change anything about how we handle this case, but I have to admit I'm still a bit surprised that some people think there is substanial disagreement in the sources Nil Einne (talk) 20:58, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Remove speculation?
What are you thoughts about including speculation in this article, specifically speculation that is unsupported by any tangible evidence, but only by theories of dramatic possibilities? &mdash;Danorton (talk) 18:19, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * This article is currently listed as a good article under various WikiProjects, and slapping unverified, unsourced speculation jeapodises this status. Of course, a theory or hypothesis that can be sourced should be fine - like the faked death speculation.  But drawing conclusions in the article should be left out - that's up to the reader!  Booglamay (  talk  ) - 19:17, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks like at least part of the text you've scrubbed is a copyvio of this CNN article. Booglamay (  talk  ) - 19:24, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * How do you distinguish between "theory", "hypothosis", and "speculation?" &mdash; Danorton (talk) 19:56, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * When I said theory/hypothesis, I meant the section regarding the Daily Telegraph article. By speculation, I was referring to the unsourced (or at best, badly-sourced) claims made by various editors (particularly IPs) such as,  and .  Speculation on cause, date, and location of death etc.  Boo<b style="color:#4D97C1">gla</b><b style="color:#0B5A88">may</b> (  talk  ) - 20:05, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with you on those, remember this is wikipedia and encylopaedia, not wikinews Nil Einne (talk) 20:36, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Mystery of his Personal Belongings Being So Far From The Wreck
I propose creating a section on this in the article itself:

His personal belongings (sweater, ID cards and money) were found a quarter of a mile from his wrecked airplane. How could this have happened? The FAA says no one could have survived the force of the crash. He had no parachute-- the crash occured September 3rd (so his sweater could not have blown across the snow). Even large animals will not usually drag a body 1/4 of a mile.

65.101.218.54 (talk) 21:37, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


 * ->From Yahoo News
 * "...his remains were probably devoured by wild animals."-- $$JJ Olsen$$  22:16, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Is there a Wikipedia category for celebrities who were devoured by wild animals? -- $$JJ Olsen$$  22:16, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Look under paparazzi. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 00:13, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Usually != never. Assuming he died in the wreck, his body's been out there for over a year.  Plenty of possibilities for how the IDs moved, from larger animals dragging the body, to smaller ones moving just the ID, to them being thrown by the force of the impact.  There's really nothing suspicious or signifigant in the fact of the distance, IMHO. - TexasAndroid (talk) 22:25, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, there are many possibilities: animals carrying heavier items away, the wind carrying the paper objects, etc. And it's important to keep in mind that as of the moment Fossett's death is not officially confirmed. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 00:30, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It's also possible he wasn't actually wearing the coat, and that it contained his stuff, and the plane spun and spilled the coat before the crash. Any number of possibilities. The investigators should have it all figured out relatively soon. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 00:33, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, please no, not another CIA conspiracy theory in the making based on "known facts"...  Socrates2008 (  Talk  )   00:37, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Ironically, when he crashed, the stocks were on high, and a year later it's the other way around. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 00:43, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Fossett Dead, Body Parts Found (Not)
There's a lot of slop out there. I'm glad it's (mostly) staying out of this article. For example:


 * Fossett died instantly as plane hit mountain in cloud
 * Body parts found among Fossett wreckage

In fairness, the "body parts" confusion probably results from a misunderstanding of the term we use refer to matter from a cadaver, i.e. "remains." Though plural in form, it doesn't necessarily mean more than one item. None of the reliable news reports mention more than the single bone fragment. &mdash;Danorton (talk) 01:18, 4 October 2008 (UTC)


 * My theory at this point is that Fossett was having some KFC for lunch, and bailed out when he saw the plane headed for the mountain, and some of the chicken bones remained. Once safely on the ground, he met D.B. Cooper and they headed off towards Craterville. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 02:50, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, and he's spending Thanksgiving with Elvis. Let's hope they find some conclusive evidence to end all the speculation and so that the poor bloke can RIP.   Socrates2008 (  Talk  )   04:40, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, RIP, or as the saying goes, "Rest In Pieces". Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 05:55, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

DNA confirmed as Fossett's (not)
I don't know anything about www.aviation.ca or the source of this article they published and they cite no specific references:
 * Search for Steve Fossett Ends in Eastern California Mountains
 * ("Federal officials have confirmed that DNA from Steve Fossett was found on Thursday.")

&mdash;Danorton (talk) 15:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

And, although they don't say it's Fossett's DNA, I expected better from The Guardian (UK):
 * Human DNA found in wreckage of Fossett's plane (video)
 * (The video is raw and no one mentions DNA in it.)

&mdash;Danorton (talk) 14:58, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

But this is what I expect from The Sun (UK):
 * Body found in Fossett wreck
 * It goes on to say "MUTILATED body parts were found ...". Sigh.

&mdash;Danorton (talk) 17:22, 4 October 2008 (UTC)


 * It also has to be considered that they might not find much remains. I recall when that golfer Paine Stewart's plane went down in 1999 that although they got to the plane right away, there was very little left to actually put in the coffin. When a plane augers-in, everything disintegrates. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 06:24, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The sources indicate that only four bone fragments were found and they're not looking for more (this year). At this point, there's no reliable secondary source that indicates that they're human. &mdash;Danorton (talk) 06:39, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Until reliable evidence emerges to the contrary, I'm sticking with my KFC theory. :) Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 06:43, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

What's missing?
Any ideas for things that should be included in this article, but aren't? The information must be verifiable from reliable secondary sources. (The sources don't need to be online resources, but they need to be fully identifiable.) If you can think of something and can properly cite it (preferably with a cite template), add it to the article. If you know about it, but don't have time to update the article, list it here with a link to supporting secondary source. If you're pretty sure it's true, but can't find a reliable secondary source, list it here, anyway. Someone can then search for supporting reliable secondary sources. Thanks. &mdash;Danorton (talk) 03:20, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Philanthropy: someone above mentioned "philanthropy", but didn't follow up with details or references. Is there no evidence of philanthropy? Is there evidence to the contrary? &mdash;Danorton (talk) 03:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Bone fragments sent to what lab?
Earlier reports clearly said (though I can't cite any from memory) that the bone fragments were being sent to the DOJ. Then it was the US DOJ. Now it looks like the DOJ denies they're involved. I think that after the situation settles a bit we should go back and chronicle this particular sub-plot.BoKu (talk) 02:16, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * We originally wrote DOJ, but didn't say which. Then we specified US DOJ. Then we specified CA DOJ. Then Corker1 found a video that reported that CA DOJ denies analyzing the samples. Now this article simply parenthetically reports "unknown lab". The "subplot" is just news reporting confusion, so unless some reliable secondary source reports that it's notable in relation to the article's subject, it's irrelevant in the historical context of the subject and it doesn't belong in this article. &mdash;Danorton (talk) 03:54, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Excessive detail?
Since the article read that a hiker found personal items near Mammoth Lakes, I wanted to know how near, and determined the distance to be about 12 km (for Americans: thats about 7.5 miles). I entered this information into the article, thinking that near is a vague term (Fort Lauderdale is near Miami, Alaska is near Russia) that should only be used in an encyclopedia when the nearness cannot be quantified in any detail. To me, that's like writing Los Angeles is large or Rhode Island is small, instead of providing at least a rough magnitude of population or area. However, Danorton removed this information quickly as "excessive detail". What do you guys think? Is he right? If so, can we also remove the "excessive detail" as to the date when the personal items of Steve Fosset were found? On September 29, 2008 might be excessive detail in the temporal dimension, just as 12 miles WNW of Mammoth Lakes is excessive detail in the geographic dimension. The point in time could be vaguely described as "late summer 2008", just as the geographical point is described as "near Mammoth Lakes".--Ratzer (talk) 21:14, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Specifically, Ratzer made this change, which I subsequently reverted, and which he restored without discussion :
 * On September 29, 2008, a hiker found personal items, cash, and identification documents confirmed as Fossett's in the Inyo National Forest, near 12 km WNW of Mammoth Lakes, California.
 * &mdash;Danorton (talk) 23:09, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I did not restore anything, with or without discussion. This is a false accusation.--Ratzer (talk) 06:08, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * My remark resulted from my confusion. I stand corrected and I apologize.

&mdash;Danorton (talk) 03:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Accepted --Ratzer (talk) 19:21, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, as Ratzer made the change he suggested, we might as well discuss that, too:
 *  On September 29, 2008 In the late summer of 2008, a hiker found personal items...

My only comment is that I don't feel that the relationship between a date and season compares very well with the relationship between a forest name and its distance in kilometers from an city that is obscure to most people. It's not the literal meaning of the words, but also the poetic impression. e.g. Even though "In the late summer of 2008" is less specific, it seems to add a poetic sense that is probably not intended. &mdash;Danorton (talk) 23:09, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Another thought just occurred to me: while a goal of the lead should be conciseness, detail should be sufficient as to avoid confusion. They need to be judicially balanced. "Near Mammoth Lakes" is more concise than "12 km WNW from Mammoth Lakes"; it is less precise, but it is at no greater risk of confusion. "Late summer of 2008", however, could result in confusion with at least one other Fossett search during that same period of time. &mdash;Danorton (talk) 23:23, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It's worth pointing out that while September 29 is certainly "late September", it is not "late summer" - it's "early fall". Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 23:30, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Or really early winter! I reverted it. &mdash;Danorton (talk) 01:46, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Given that they're expecting snow soon, I reckon it really is early winter, practically speaking. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 02:11, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I am pleased that my latest change of the article lead to a discussion. Unfortunately, there is not much input, except from Danorton, on the question whether near or 12 km WNW of (or perhaps 12 km from or eight miles from) is better. I think a more precise qualification of the location is important here because the fact that no trace of Steve Fossett had been found for a long time seems in outright contradiction that his crash occurred anywhere near a populated place. Which inevitably leads to the question, how near. 100 yards? 1 Mile? 5 miles? 10 miles? 20 miles? 30 miles? What is the upper and lower limit of near? What is its mean or meadian value? If Danorton is the only one who prefers near over a more precise qualification, I shall take the liberty to restitute the latter.--Ratzer (talk) 06:08, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You seem to be taking this as a personal issue. This isn't about you or me or any of our differences. We all share the common goal of improving Wikipedia. "Near" is not intended to be a precise measurement, and precise details aren't necessary in the lead. The lead intends to give a basic overview of the article's subject. If you want to know how "near," read further. In Manhattan, "near" is 3-4 blocks. In Wyoming, it's probably 40-50 miles in the summer, 15-30 miles in the winter. If none of the place names are familiar, then I expect most readers take "near" to mean the nearest significantly populated area. Personally, 12 km from Mammoth Lakes has the same meaning to me as 9 nm from Nowheresville (town). The lead isn't about detail, it's about providing a concise capsule of the subject. (p.s. if you want your edit to remain, put the distance in a measurement that's consistent with the article: miles or or use miles with the convert template). &mdash;Danorton (talk) 06:51, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * We do share a common goal, so it's nothing personal. 12 km or 8 miles is not a precise measurement, 7.85 miles would be one. Instead of WNW we can use the less precise but perhaps less confusing directional description "northwest" or just "west". I would not omit the direction completely, since east of Mammoth Lakes is Highway 395, where an early discovery of the crash would have been even more likely. Let's first see if anyone else has an opinion about this.--Ratzer (talk) 08:12, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I've added the GPS co-ords of the crash site based on the center of the FAA exclusion zone that was set up around the site. This point of interest is pretty much halfway between Mammoth Lakes and Minaret Peaks, so I've described as such.  I hope that settles the issue.   Socrates2008 (  Talk  )   10:09, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm convinced that readers want to know the distance to the closest town. They can calculate it from the coordinates, or measure it from a map or satellite image, but what is the big deal of putting this information into the article, so they can just simply read it?--Ratzer (talk) 19:57, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Let's clarify the issues here. The "excessive detail" issue I raised in an edit summary was regarding excessive detail in the lead section. I don't have any issue with more detail further down in the article. That lead sentence of the "Discovery of wreckage" section, however, was becoming a mouthful and I'm glad to see that an editor broke it up into two sentences. Ratzer, I don't think anyone would mind you adding to that section the distance to the crash site from Nowheresville Mammoth Lakes, as long as it reads well. Consider posting your suggestion here first, if you're concerned it might get reverted or disputed. &mdash;Danorton (talk) 20:18, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I put the distances into the section further down. I agree that's a better place than the lead section, but I do feel strongly that the information should not be removed completely.--Ratzer (talk) 19:20, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

It was on the internet, CNN reported that the small bones found by the plane were NOT human, but they found two large bones about a quarter mile away from the plane and right now are doing a test to see if they are human or not.71.32.33.154 (talk)

Speculation on faked death
This speculative section does not meet the Wikipedia requirements for reliability and has no factual basis whatsoever. Furthermore, this conspiracy theory is irrelevant now that the crash site has been found. Socrates2008 ( Talk  )   08:30, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Until Fossett himself is confirmed dead (which is not the case), the conspiracy theory, however silly, still has some currency. He could always have done a D.B. Cooper and bailed out before the plane crashed. The location of some of his stuff, quite a ways from the crash, still needs a good explanation. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 08:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Disagree. The speculation itself is newsworthy and is documented with reasonable references. I absolutely agree that the speculation was baseless and possibly malicious. But at the same time I recognize that people did speculate, there were a couple of newspaper articles, and Lloyd's man did stir up some dirt. I think it's reasonable to mention that those things happened in an encyclopedic article.BoKu (talk) 20:49, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * They stirred up some dirt in an encyclopedic article? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 21:49, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep – The information is accurately reported as speculation. There is no question to the reliability of the fact that the speculation occurred. If the news sources were deemed unreliable, then I would support deletion of this section, but that does not seem to be the case here. &mdash;Danorton (talk) 16:59, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe Fossett hired a double to fly the plane for him, and the pilot discovered as the plane fell out of the sky that the plane was rigged to crash, and Fossett had been following the plane on radar and knew exactly where it crashed and then Fossett fed the search people the search zone that ends a few miles north of the crash and then Fossett's people go clean up the crash site and leave some planted bits of bone that were grown in Fossett's secret DNA lab.
 * Or more likely he's dead.   Randall Bart    Talk   21:17, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Disputed section of business career.
The article says he was born in 1944 and received a MBA in 1968. Original research (simple math) suggests that he was 24 years old. It would be highly unusual for a 24 year old to be a long term member of the Board of Trustees of a major university. Did he become a board member when he was 15 years old?

The citation is a dead link.

In Wikipedia, we do not guess. However, guessing would be that he received a MBA in 1968 from the Olin School of Business and was named a Board member later in life.

Who is responsible for this probably wrong edit?

Fossett&amp;Elvis (talk) 19:32, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I did some original research and called someone. They think he got on the board in the mid 1990's. Fossett&amp;Elvis (talk) 19:38, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

He's dead
At this point it's highly unlikely that the human remains inside the crashed plane are not Fossett. It's time to just call him dead and take the declared legally dead stuff out of the lede and the infobox. The legally dead part now deserves no more than a sentence in the section on his death. Taking a long term (encyclopedic) viewpoint, the article is supposed to be about the man's life, not trivia about his death. Randall Bart    Talk   00:36, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The "declared legally dead" could be relegated to a detail in the article at this point. Although one edit summary said "Fossett Remains Found" edit summary, it is also true that "Fossett Remains Dead". Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 00:43, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree that it's likely that he's dead and that the found remains are his, but it's not about what you or I consider to be likely. A core policy of Wikipedia is verifiability. Information in Wikipedia articles comes from reliable secondary sources. If you find a reliable secondary source that reports that he is dead, then it would be appropriate for the article to reflect that. From WP:VERIFY:
 * The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true.
 * This is an encyclopedia, not a daily news tabloid. I imagine that this will all be concluded as we expect within a couple of weeks. Patience. &mdash;Danorton (talk) 00:54, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * And in furtherance of the "Still Dead" thing, I don't think it's necessary for the lead to mention twice that he was declared legally dead on such-and-such a date. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 01:13, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I would agree that it's generally better to avoid repetition, but in this instance I believe it's helpful, as it establishes context for the next level of detail. The date he went missing is similarly duplicated, I believe for the same reason. If you can come up with a better lead section that's more concise and at least as easy to follow, by all means edit boldly! &mdash;Danorton (talk) 01:55, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Part of what's bothering me about that lead is that it's got too much detail. The lead is supposed to be a summary of the article, and everything footnoted within it should normally be footnoted instead in the body (pardon the ironic metaphor) of the article text. To put it another way, there shouldn't be anything in the summary that isn't already in the text. Or so I've often read in these types of discussions. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 02:02, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * And as far as the "being bold" part, I've found for rapidly-changing articles that it's better to debate on the talk page at length, in hopes of reaching something resembling consensus. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 02:05, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, the "bold" guideline does prominently feature the "but be careful" caveat. ;-) &mdash;Danorton (talk) 02:17, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It's noy such much about being careful as it is about wasting energy on a page that's volatile. In the lead, I might list the dates at the top as they are, footnoted; and summarize the missing / legally dead info in a single next-to-last sentence in the lead, without footnotes, especially the one cited twice for the same bit of information. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 02:25, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I wouldn't consider a re-org of the lead section until things have settled down for a few days, at least. &mdash;Danorton (talk) 03:50, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Now that a lab has confirmed it, can the declared legally dead be put in the article and the date he was missing be his death date as suggested above?68.99.148.250 (talk) 22:59, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The article already says he was legally dead as of February. Maybe you're thinking the date of his crash is now known?  Sorry, we only know when he left and when the wreckage was found.  He could have been flying around for weeks, theoretically, though the most likely scenario is that he crashed the same day. —EncMstr (talk) 23:11, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

On second thought
So how's this for a twist?
 * "However, Madera County Sheriff John Anderson said later that what searchers had found was a piece of bone that was 2 inches by 1 and a half inches in size. He said it was unclear if it was human - and added that he did not know of any confirmed human remains being found." (emphasis added)

There will be all kinds of twists and turns before this is all over. Let's stick with what's stable and reliable. &mdash;Danorton (talk) 02:22, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The plane itself likely took plenty of twists and turns before crashing. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 02:25, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Finding a 2 inch piece of bone does not confirm that a particular human is dead. We can wait for coroners reports/DNA testing. Edison (talk) 04:57, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The USAToday article states that some human remains were found. The article also talks about planes that crashed in the Sierras that are either still missing or that were only found decades after the fact. By implication, they were lucky to have found this one so quickly. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 13:16, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

He's still dead
Finally there's no need for weaselwording about about it, he's dead. The third paragraph in the lede should not be in the lede. The lede should just say he died in a plan crash September 3, 2007. Anything else belongs in the setion on his death, which can be justifiably extensive.  Randall Bart    Talk   00:15, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Categories
Since we removed him from the 2007 deaths cat because of the odd conspiracy theories going around, should we remove him from the "Victims of aviation accidents or incidents in the United States" cat too? According to most/all conspiracy theories which hold he didn't die, he wasn't the victim of an aviation accident/incident either. We don't have any sourced theory which suggests he crashed but survived. I could be wrong, but if you purposely crash your plane as part of some elaborate hoax, it's not an aviation accident/incident right? Nil Einne (talk) 06:58, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Now for the sake of all that is science, can we finally decide that he is dead now ? I don't see why we need to accommodate the hoax-callers further than we have so far. A faked death here is as true as Obama is a Muslim and humanity not landing on the moon. --Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 23:11, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I mostly agree with you and even though with the latest news, I hope this isn't an issue, my point is still valid. If we were going to remove him from the 2007 deaths cat due to odd conspiracy theories, then we should also have removed him from the "victims" cat. As I've already said, hopefully this isn't an issue now that the DNA results have confirmed his death (as if they were really necessary) and I've always argued that there wasn't any real need to remove the death cat (see above) but whatever we did, we shouldn't have done it half way. Nil Einne (talk) 07:17, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Confirmation of date of death
Just because his plane crashed Oct. 3rd 2007, doesn't mean he died on that day. Surely his date of death should be marked as the date he was declared legally dead, or the date his death was confirmed by the DNA testing. Guidance please? Thor Malmjursson (talk) 12:18, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Like the article states. His plane cannot fly around for more than a couple of hours before running out of fuel. So the crash definitely happened on that day. Crash damage has led investigators to conclude that death would have been on impact. The bodyparts recovered from the site are his. That is sufficient proof for that deathdate within 99% certainty. Now if there was a time of death in the article, I'd agree with you, but I think this is a reasonable assessment. At MOST, I would say that his legal death date might be different (i'm not intimately familiar with US procedures on this), but the fact that he was declared death, also says that the judge found enough "evidence" that the person would have actually died, and this tells us that such a judge also presumes a date of death before the person is declared legally dead.


 * However all that does not matter. In 10 years, everyone will only remember 2 things: 1 he died on oct 3rd, 2007 and 2 it took them a while to find him. It is logical that there is no definitive death date for this person, because no one was standing next to the mountain, but we are here to write with intelligence instead of being a set of statistics/legal dummies. There is a small statistical chance he survived the crash and then a small statistical chance that he survived the first part of the night of Oct 4th before succumbing due to hypothermia, shock and his injuries. The date of death is clear within 99% certainty, and all the fine details of law, the doubts of hoaxers and the statistical chances of survival of initial impact, that apply in a case like these can be properly handled in the subparagraphs. That is just my opinion, but I don't see why we would have to wait 2 years for histories to come to the same conclusions as any normal person looking at the facts would make.


 * BUT, due to our perceived "lack of reliability" by the public, I would support adding a ref footnote that states that this date is not set in stone 100%, but only a conclusion based on the many facts. --Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 13:55, 4 November 2008 (UTC)


 * September 3, actually. And the "c." would seem to cover it. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 14:22, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Excessive citations
Ten references for a single statement is truly overkill (last sentence of the introduction), especially when this information (that his remains were found) is not disputed. There is no need for that kind of redundancy. I suggest removing more than half of them, as they are all covering the same thing, and four or five references is more than enough. There are also excessive references in the Recovery of wreckage and remains section. 5+ references are not necessary to confirm the statements. Refer to discussions here, here, and here for examples of past discussions about this type of thing. Ariel ♥  Gold  18:12, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Star Harness and no possibility of animal dragging remains on discovery channel
I just watched the special on Discovery Channel on Steve Fosset titled "Steve Fossett/What Went Wrong." In it they mostly agree with this page except for one crucial detail. The last line on the page says, "Madera County Sheriff John Anderson said Fossett would have died on impact, adding that it was not unusual for animals to drag away remains." This was shown to be not true on the documentary. The plane had a five point harness which is known for its central buckle with five clips that go in to it. It was pointed out that in the wreckage the five buckles were found released from the harness. This harness is special in that you have to twist it to unbuckle it. There is no possible way an animal could have undone this. The only way it could have happened would be that the animal would have to eat him out of the harness and then drag whats left the couple miles, which as it sounds is extremely unlikely. It was also pointed out that in the direct direction he was heading was a known path (and that he also knew the area well) that is used every day by hikers and his remains were only a mile or so away from it. I am going to modify the article with this information.Ergzay (talk) 04:19, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I've reverted this edit. Let's have a reliable reference please before this conspiracy theory is added to the article.  Thank you.   Socrates2008 (  Talk  )   12:49, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * This is not a conspiracy theory in that no conspiracy is involved. The suggestion is simply that Fossett, after the crash, removed his seat belt and exited the plane. They clearly showed video of the unbuckled seat belt, and also of one of the five buckles, which was not damaged. This is pretty clear evidence that the seat belt was, infact, unbuckled. 66.80.222.104 (talk) 23:19, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It's from an unreliable source (the producer of Discovery Channel is not a forensic investigator who can assert that the buckle was not unclipped by another human). So no, the statement was not "clear", but rather just orignal research laced with weasel words.   Socrates2008 (  Talk  )   05:16, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Related/Inspired Cases ?
It seems highly likely that the rumors and speculations over Fosset's death may have served as inspiration in some cases (Marcus Schrenker):
 * http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/15/us/15plane.html?ref=us
 * http://www.examiner.com/x-2215-Denver-Aviation-Community-Examiner~y2009m1d14-Schrenker-airplane-jumping-story-gets-stranger-by-the-minute
 * http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,479865,00.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Parallelized (talk • contribs) 10:42, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Cause of crash
So he flew into a mountain, or am I misreading the article? Bastie (talk) 13:09, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

I doubt that was the cause of the accident. But the end was result was a dent in a mountain yes. 213.131.189.209 (talk) 08:27, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

The NTSB has issued some information on his crash now. It seems likely that he got vaught in a downdraft the airplane couldn't out-climb. See here: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20081007X17184&ntsbno=SEA07FA277&akey=1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by ArtoftheMotorcycle (talk • contribs) 20:51, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

On the edge, like always
There he was taking on more risks, at 12,700 ft on the edge of his aircraft's service ceiling, and on the edge of needing oxygen, in a 30 year old plane. His final voyage. With all of the confidence of the captain of the Titanic. He should not have been flying alone ... JohnClarknew (talk) 23:22, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Reasons for failure of initial search
This article discusses the Google Earth, DigitalGlobe, Amazon Mechanical Turk online search for the crash site, but gives no indication if it was determined to have actually been visible once the location had been discovered. I've not found any reliable sources discussing this, with the best I could find being a slashdot [post] in which a user wrote, "A summary of various comments above: it was outside the turk's search area, and google earth still doesn't have recent photos of the crash site even now." Can anyone find a reliable source for a retrospective analysis of the online search? -- Kirk Hilliard (talk) 08:40, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

"Minimal Effort"
LiamLaw's recent edit says that "minimal effort" was undertaken to identify other aircraft crash sites discovered during the search. I tagged that statement as [citation needed]. My understanding (equally [citation needed]) is that all but one or two of the crash sites were WWII-era crashes that had been known but forgotten. BoKu (talk) 17:27, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Could or could not?
Is the passage "in which they expressed certainty that the harness could have been released by any animal" quoted properly? In either event, it is not clear to me what is being suggested... SalineBrain (talk) 18:50, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Crowdsourcing possibly successful?
Does anyone know whether the crowdsourcing effort WOULD have detected the crash site by computer program scan, once the actual crash site location was known? Wouldn't this be of interest to searchers for the future? SalineBrain (talk) 18:53, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Too much unnecessary detail?
In the section about the finding of the wreckage and his body parts? This whole section
 * This fact does not explain how the ends of the aerobatic harness he was wearing could have come free from the 5-point cam-lock, considering that their release requires the cam-lock knob be twisted a quarter-turn. Manipulating the cam-lock could not have been accomplished by someone other than Fossett. According to interviews by the Discovery Channel (who provided a camera crew the day after his FAA ID and $1,005 were found by a hiker) the one fact that disputes the official findings was the location of hardware that had been part of the pilot's harness. Pilots who knew him were interviewed by the Discovery Channel for a January 2009 documentary on the incident in which they expressed certainty that the harness could have been released by any animal that may have moved his body. The reason for their opinion pertains to the mechanism (twisting) required to release the harness and the fact that no other hardware was attached. However, there is no evidence to suggest that this harness was in use or being worn at the time of the crash.

Seems over the top. Besides - if you have seen the footage of the wreckage, heavily mangled and crumpled, and no large pieces surviving, it is not beyond belief that the force of the crash could easily have destroyed the harness. And don't get me talking about the programme I watched last night (The Sierra Nevada Triangle, on Channel 4) in which a Mammoth Lakes Park Ranger insisted that bears wouldn't have moved his body/body parts and that the explanation for his remains being found so far from the crash site was that he had crawled up there. Puh-lease! And this ranger said he had seen the crash wreckage. There was no way anyone would survive a crash that did that to the plane. 12:06, 5 January 2010 (UTC)86.148.48.248 (talk)


 * That ranger said the bears are too lazy to travel that far, unless there were some in the area. You have to remember, there were probably other wild animals in the area that could have gotten to him. And I've seen people survirve stranger things. Such as that person who was buried for 12 days in a collapsed building in the Haiti quake last month.  Cra sh  Underride  03:55, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Mechanical Turk search
I took part in the Mechanical Turk search and spotted a wrecked plane in one of my squares. As well as flagging it up I contacted the search organisers by email. I heard nothing back (unsurprising as they were busy), but much later heard on the news that through the crowdsourcing, several new crash sites had been identified, as well as quite a few planes already known to have come down in the area and whose location had already been established by the authorities. My questions are - was anything done with the knowledge from the crowdsourcing search about the new crash sites? Were they investigated on the ground? How many new crash sites were discovered by the collaborative effort? 81.156.125.126 (talk) 15:31, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Zeppelin pilot licenses
I've moved this comment from the article:
 * The previous statement requires additional clarification. No special "license" is needed to fly the Zeppelin NT other than a standard, "Lighter-Than-Air, Airship" rating (under United States jurisdiction.)  There are well in excess of 30 pilots worldwide with current, airship ratings, both at the time Fosset was flying and now.

The number may be 17 or 30, but the source says 17. Is there a source for 30?  Will Beback   talk    22:03, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

For the record, here's the source used in the article: Steve Fossett: Always “Scouting for New Adventures” Part 2, dated October 2006.  Will Beback   talk    00:27, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Remains
It is not clear from the article whether 2 bones constitute the total discovered remains or whether a body was recovered. The determination of cause of death suggests the latter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.175.109.15 (talk) 02:12, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

"Business Career" vs. "Trading Career"
That section in this article quite properly began, and should remain, entitled "Business Career," during the first fifteen years of which we can document with reliable sources Fossett's significant success at supporting himself by selling his services, but not by trading. There are no independent, reliable sources to support the notion that anyone at the Chicago Board of Trade regarded him as a successful commodities trader, nor as a manager of trading, whether for himself, his family or for any others. I've removed those recurring revisions that give such an impression in the absence of satisfactory support.


 * — Wordsmith (talk) 22:08, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Looking for Land Speed Sites
I'm guessing this has been covered, but I'm looking for a citation that states that Fossett was not looking for sites for a land speed record attempt. I see http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/04/fossett.missing/index.html, which quotes Major Ryan of the Civil Air Patrol as saying " 'Steve took off toward the south and was going to fly southbound, looking around for some dry lake beds for some plans he had for the future,'" ... "Those plans, she said, involved testing a vehicle in an attempt to set a world land speed record."

I've marked that sentence as Citation needed and would be very happy if someone was able to provide a better citation about his intentions or one that refutes the above CNN article. 23:49, 27 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I failed to sign the above. Cxbrx (talk) 23:52, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

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 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://records.fai.org/gliding/history.asp?id1=DO&id2=1&id3=411
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://records.fai.org/gliding/history.asp?id1=DO&id2=1&id3=98
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070927173557/http://ironman.com/assets/files/results/worldchampionship/1996.htm to http://ironman.com/assets/files/results/worldchampionship/1996.htm
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0%2C%2C30200-1284904%2C00.html
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 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20081007X17184&ntsbno=SEA07FA277&akey=1
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110608191349/http://records.fai.org/data?p=1372 to http://records.fai.org/data?p=1372

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External links modified
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I have just modified 2 external links on Steve Fossett. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090407111749/http://www.nasm.si.edu/events/pressroom/releaseDetail.cfm?releaseID=153 to http://www.nasm.si.edu/events/pressroom/releaseDetail.cfm?releaseID=153
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090107061058/http://www.gov.state.nv.us/PressReleases/2008/2008-03-12BenKieckhefer-PS.htm to http://gov.state.nv.us/PressReleases/2008/2008-03-12BenKieckhefer-PS.htm

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External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110718122556/http://radblast-sf.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/radar/WUNIDS_composite_archive?centerlat=36.32927322&centerlon=-119.64318848&radius=124&newmaps=1&type=N0R&num=24&SD.epoch=1188795600&ED.epoch=1188881999&DELAY=60&delay=20&width=640&height=480 to http://radblast-sf.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/radar/WUNIDS_composite_archive?centerlat=36.32927322&centerlon=-119.64318848&radius=124&newmaps=1&type=N0R&num=24&SD.epoch=1188795600&ED.epoch=1188881999&DELAY=60&delay=20&width=640&height=480

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