Talk:Steven Chu/Archive 1

Chinese name
Mr Chu is a native-born American. It makes no more sense to provide a Chinese translation of his name than a French one. If you take the view that his ethnic origin justifies this, then logically you should give name tranlations for Americans of, say, Polish, Russian, Jewish or African descent. jimfbleak 05:53, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * It is obvious that his Chinese is not transliterated from his English. As a second generation Chinese American, Prof. Chu should be fluent in the Chinese language and be using his Chinese name in certain contexts (such as with his parents). If we go one, two, or three generations down and find someone not fluent in Chinese, then perhaps the Chinese name will be irrelevant, but I think it is relevant here.--Jiang 08:02, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The above post is complete bull. Steve Chu is not fluent in Chinese, as a matter of fact he is not even close to being mediocre in Chinese. Furthermore, he does not speak any other languages besides english. Mumudengo 22:49, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
 * There are many Chinese in China or in the US who are reading wikipedia as a way to learn English as well as about science and people in science. They may only know the Chinese name of Professor Steven Chu. Professor Chu's Chinese name is not a standard translation of his English name.  I think removing Professor Chu's Chinese name eliminates this cross reference. As a general thought, people may have several names for various reasons, I don't see why we must choose one and only one name.  There are certain countries where it is prohibited to use one's ethnic name for political reasons.  I think there is no reason for wikipedia to do so. If the names exist and are used in some context, they should be included. We can include information if particular name is not preferred by the person.  We can use only one name in articles other than his or her biographic entry. daqingzhao 19:22, 5 October, 2006 (UTC)
 * There is no showing of any relevance to this article. If someone only knows a Chinese name for him, they can look that up on the Chinese Wikipedia and follow the link to the English Wikipedia, just as they could if they only know zh:丹尼斯·罗德曼 for D-Rod.  Gene Nygaard 21:28, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * to Gene Nygaard, he is a member of the Chinese Academy of Sciences and the the Academia Sinica. and besides Mumudengo how the @#$% would you know if he speaks any languages besides english anyways?


 * to Mumudengo "Chu said that he and his brothers never learned to speak Chinese because his parents spoke to them in English." Source : http://asianweek.com/102397/cover_story.html   Wikipediaphile  —Preceding undated comment was added at 02:32, 11 December 2008 (UTC).


 * Would those who insist on adding Chinese names onto non-Chinese people please cite a primary source for the Chinese name? Especially since many of these names are not transcriptions of the English pronunciation, there needs to be proof that these are legal or assumed names used by the person her/himself. I have removed the Chinese name until someone provides proof beyond whatever Chinese newspapers have decided to call him, which are merely secondary sources.


 * Wikipedia has a Chinese edition and that's where the new transliteration of his name belongs. Likewise there should be a Russian translation in the Russian editon. etc not here. Rjensen (talk) 16:36, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Wife Number?
Chu is married to Jean Chu (12th(?) wife). Some vandal keeps changing the number of his wife (4th, 6th, 12th?). Can someone verify this information and correct it. Tjoneslo 00:55, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I've removed any mention of "n'th wife" from the article; it does not seem particularly relevant to me, and if someone wants to add it back, please add a verifiable cite as per the verifiability policy. -- The Anome 20:21, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Copyvio?
Significant portions of this article appear to be copied from. For example, "Steven Chu's older brother is Gilbert Chu, Professor of Biochemistry and Medicine at Stanford University, and his younger brother is influential lawyer Morgan Chu of southern California," "He became a professor in the physics and applied physics departments at Stanford University in 1987 and went on leave 2004 when he took on the directorship of Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory," "Chinese American physicist who, with Claude Cohen-Tannoudji and William D. Phillips, was awarded the 1997 Nobel Prize for Physics for their research in cooling and trapping atoms using laser light," and many other sentences. The copying seems to have been introduced in this edit, over a year ago. Factitious 21:14, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Publications
The reference given as:

Chinga T, Chu S (2000). "Bose-Einstein condensates of DNA particle waves gives clue about the origin of life". Nature 394 (6852): 55-9. doi:10.1038/27878.

appears to be bogus.

86.141.87.137 (talk) 19:26, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I noticed this and immediately suspected that it is bogus. Nature 394 was published in 1998, and 55-9 is "The balance of plankton respiration and photosynthesis in the open oceans", which the doi refers to.  I searched google scholar for an article with a similar title (not that this title makes any sense or is even remotely physically plausible), and found nothing.  The addition of this citation is the author, ProfJuJanyho's only contribution, so this looks like a clear case of vandalism.  I removed the posting.  I imagine the doi was subsequently added by a bot, but haven't investigated it. dikaiopolis 19:31, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

"First Chinese-American to hold this office"
The article reads "If nominated and confirmed, Chu will be the first Chinese American to hold this office." Isn't he the first Chinese-American to hold a Cabinet-level position? --69.236.185.76 (talk) 06:24, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No. Elaine Chao was Secretary of Labor in the Bush Administration (43). That one immediately comes to mind; there may have been others. Ray (talk) 07:26, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Undue weight
Do we really want a detailed discussion of the environmental impact review for a building in the introduction, but not the fact that he's been nominated for to be Secretary of Energy? -- SCZenz (talk) 10:42, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Chinese characters
I see this was discussed above, but never resolved. Does Dr. Chu use the Chinese form of his name? Does anyone use it for him, aside from writings in Chinese of course? -- SCZenz (talk) 10:46, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * It could be moved to the infobox. Transliteration for the pronunciation would be nice too. --Apoc2400 (talk) 12:09, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The location doesn't seem to matter much. But the transliteration question seems to be illustrative of the broader question of whether the Chinese version of his name should be included at all.  "Steven Chu" isn't the anglicized version of his real name; it is his real name.  朱棣文 is the rendering of his name in Chinese, but why exactly are we including it? -- SCZenz (talk) 12:33, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Even if he does not speak any Chinese, he probably considers 朱棣文 to be one version of his name. It would be nice to have some kind of course for it of course. --Apoc2400 (talk) 12:56, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I think having a source is vital. Making assumptions about what he considers his name to be is fraught with neutrality problems. -- SCZenz (talk) 16:03, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest the following criteria for including foreign versions of names on any English Wikipedia page:

1) Nationality- the alternate name/spelling represents the native usage in the persons country of birth or citizenship (not the case with Chu) 2) Legal Use- the alternate name/spelling constitutes a past or present legal name used by the person described, with citations needed (not the case with Chu) 3) Common Personal use- the alternate name/spelling is commonly used by the person in English language publications or official correspondence/letterhead, citations needed (not the case with Chu).  -Wikipediaphile  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.62.91.2 (talk) 15:35, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Reliable sources for his Chinese name is easy to find, and I've added one from SINA to the article. But let's clarify something here - 朱棣文 is not a translation of his English name, it is not a "rendering", it is not a "version", etc etc. It is his Chinese name. Meaning, it is another name he has beside "Steve Chu". It is common practice for Chinese people living in Western countries to have two names, one English name and one Chinese name. They are not translations of each other. His Chinese name does not mean "Steve". Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 16:39, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Of course there are articles in Chinese that use "朱棣文," just as English-language articles about Chinese citizens use English-language characters for their names; that neither proves nor disproves that he uses 朱棣文, or answers whether he considers it to be his name, or indeed tells us whether anyone considers it to be his Chinese name. And that's exactly what's at issue here.  I want to be clear that I mean no disrespect to the practice of having a separate name in each language, or that I would have the slightest problem with including his Chinese name if he has one.  But I am concerned, as others have been, that we are giving him him a Chinese name by default because his ancestry is Chinese, or because his parents were immigrants, or for some reason I don't understand.  We need to be clear what is based on sources, as opposed to what we are assuming, and we need to be clear why we are making those assumptions.  -- SCZenz (talk) 16:54, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, I would think that it is more important that mainstream and reliable sources use "朱棣文". Conversely, would we ask the same ambiguous question of whether he "considers" Steve Chu to be his name as long as reliable sources use that name?  This is where we trust reliable sources to be, well, reliable.  We are not "giving him a Chinese name by default".  It is another name that he has.  Again, this is not a translation or version of his English name.  A biographical article needs to cover the different names that a person is known by.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 17:21, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * If the only sources that use "朱棣文" for his name are Chinese-language, then it is ambiguous whether it is a Chinese version of his name or his Chinese name. Presumably people with Western names have their names rendered in Chinese characters in Chinese-language articles as well -- do they also have Chinese names?  And does Dr. Chu have a Japanese name, or a Hebrew name?  I'm asking these questions because I'm trying very hard to understand why you say that he has a Chinese name.  -- SCZenz (talk) 17:29, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * It is not a Chinese version of his name because 朱棣文 is neither a transliteration nor a translation of his English name. 朱 is his surname, 棣 is his generational name, and 文 is his given name, as is common for three-character Chinese names.  Firstly there is no Chinese translation of English names.  Secondly, the common transliteration of Steven is 斯蒂芬, something which Chinese newspapers would have used for Steve Chu if they went with a transliterated name, the same way that they do so for someone like Steven Spielberg.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 17:59, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * In terms of hard sources that may be connected to him, this list of honorary degree recipients from The Chinese University of Hong Kong lists Chu's name in English and Chinese, whereas non Chinese names do not have an equivalent. Still doesn't prove much. Joshdboz (talk) 17:13, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Chinese Americans nearly always have a separate Chinese name that was given to them by their parents. This name is used in the Chinese press (most large cities have Chinese newspapers and sometimes also radio and TV stations). Since we strive to be 100% encyclopedic and not 99%, we generally include such names, as for Michael Chang. Japanese or Hebrew names wouldn't be relevant because his parents most likely didn't give him either of those. Badagnani (talk) 17:32, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * This may be a broader question for the Manual of Style (biographies) in that case; it poses serious questions of neutrality and sourcing to assume that, because Americans of Chinese descent "nearly always have a separate Chinese name that was given to them by their parents," each individual has one. At least as far as I'm aware, we have no source that Dr. Chu was given a Chinese name.  -- SCZenz (talk) 17:40, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Besides reliable English websites and newspapers, we also have no source to state that "Steven Chu" is really his name either. The same thing can be said of the majority of biographical articles on WP.  What we do know is that 1) biographical articles need to cover different names and aliases a person has, and 2) reliable sources give his name as 朱棣文.  Here's a purely rhetorical question - if the Unabomber does not call himself the Unabomber, should we exclude that name from the article about him?  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 18:05, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * SCZenz is correct that there are possible POV issues if we suddenly added Chinese translations to everyone with a Chinese last name, regardless of nationality or spoken language. This should probably be address in the MoS. Joshdboz (talk) 19:15, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I really don't know how many times I must repeat this - 朱棣文 is not a translation of "Steven Chu". Anybody with any basic knowledge of the Chinese language can tell you this.  朱棣文 is another name that this person has.  This may come as a surprise to some people, but there are billions and billions of people out there with more than one name.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 19:21, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Having seen this debate on many other pages be a case where it is aproproate to take the ignore all rules axe to the rule on no origonal research. Perhaps a Wikipedian should write a letter to people like Chu asking how he writes his Chinese name, and if it has ever been considered to be his real name.  Then a scanned copy of the letter could be posted on Wikipedia for reference.
 * WP:IAR states: The spirit of the rule trumps the letter of the rule. The common purpose of building a free encyclopedia trumps both. If this common purpose is better served by ignoring the letter of a particular rule, then that rule should be ignored.
 * My interpretation of the spirit of WP:NOR is that people should back up what they say so that it is verifiable. In this case a letter would be backing up, even if it isn't from an independently published source.  Moreover, doing so would serve the common purpose because it 1) guarantees the accuracy of Wikipedia, and 2) stops this same issue from being debated over and over. Mozzie (talk) 01:50, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment - As of now we have a huge number of Chinese sources (in the PRC, Taiwan, and in North America) using the Chinese spelling we have now. So it's most likely good enough. Badagnani (talk) 01:52, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Isn't Steven normally transliterated as 斯蒂芬 or 史蒂文 in Chinese? Badagnani (talk) 19:28, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes. Plus, common practice in transliterating English names to Chinese is that the surname-given name ordering in English is preserved, but that is obviously not the case with 朱棣文.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 19:45, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you HongQiGong for repeating yourself; you might be surprised, but I would hazard a guess that most people on en.wikipedia do not have "any basic knowledge of Chinese" nor do they have more than one name. I still think there may be POV issues to be considered, but if this was indeed chosen by him or his parents, there shouldn't be a problem with inclusion, at least in the infobox. Joshdboz (talk) 19:39, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I did not say "Chinese people" have more than one name, but merely people. Many people, regardless of ethnicity and race, have more than one name.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 19:45, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "I did not say "Chinese people" have more than one name"...Uh, neither did I. Joshdboz (talk) 21:00, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Because Wikipedia (even en:WP) is actually multilingual, providing the Chinese name in articles about Chinese American individuals (like Michael Chang or Steven Chu) is beneficial because it allows our users to search for Chinese-language and bilingual sources, to find even more information about Chinese American individuals, in Chinese newspapers and online sources. These sources can then be translated into English with Babelfish or Google Translation. Badagnani (talk) 19:42, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Regarding whether the name is a transliteration of Steven, I believe it is an ad hoc transliteration--whether made up by Chu, his parents, or the media. While 斯蒂芬 or 史蒂文 are much more often used as Chinese transliterations for Steven, and because 棣文 omits the first syllable, it appears that perhaps Chu came up with this name to use in the Chinese media because it has the typical "single-syllable surname, two-syllable given name" format of most Chinese names. Also, the initial character, 棣, is a type of cherry, and, thus, the name would be very unusual ("wild cherry learning") to have been selected by his parents. Very often, in the Chinese language, unusual, rarely-used characters rather than commonly used ones are selected for transliteration of foreign (non-Chinese) names, to avoid implying meanings that aren't there. After examining the etymology of this given name, most likely Chu has another "real" Chinese name given by his parents, which is unknown to the public. I would be interested to hear the comments of native Chinese-speaking editors on this. Badagnani (talk) 19:46, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Note that his brother Gilbert Chu's name is 朱著文, which really sounds nowhere close to "Gilbert", plus the two brothers would share the character 文 in their names. Unusual for the third character to be the generational name, but not unheard of.  Also, 朱棣 happens to be the given name of the Yongle Emperor.  But I would not venture into wondering why his parents (possibly) gave him the character 棣 in his name. Stranger names have been given, for example, Fruit Chan's name 陳果. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 20:25, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The character 棣 is in fact quite common in Chinese names. Do a simple Google search of the name and change the surname into a common one, say, 王棣文 or 陳棣文, will give you a lot of results. The character means "understanding", I believe. Naur (talk) 07:46, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Great research. Badagnani (talk) 20:34, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The man is a third-generation academic. And given how common the character 文 is used as a name anyway, it's really not so shocking that the character is in his name as given by his parents.  Even if Chu himself does not know how to write his own Chinese name (highly unlikely for someone who came from a family of academics).  As soon as he was nominated for the Nobel prize more than 10 years ago, all it would have taken is one of the Chinese newspapers with an American office to contact his parents and they would have his Chinese name.  It's not that difficult especially when his father is a professor.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 21:00, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Can we make contacts to check on this? Badagnani (talk) 21:05, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No idea who to contact who would be of use for this, short of Chu or his family themselves. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 21:26, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

On whether or not Chu speaks Chinese - the same source that says he never learnt to speak Chinese from his parents also stated that he was trying to learn Mandarin. That source was published in 1997. So that's 11 years ago that Chu said he was trying to learn Mandarin. At the very least, it's inconclusive exactly how fluent Chu's Chinese language ability is today. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 16:09, 16 December 2008 (UTC)


 * His name in Latin is Stephanus Chu; should this be mentioned in the article? ;) Rwflammang (talk) 16:52, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Is that a translation of his English name or another name altogether, like his Chinese name is another name seperate from his English name? The point here is that a biographical article should mention all the relevant names that a person goes by, and Steven Chu has two different names - "Steven Chu" and "朱棣文".  These two names are not translations of each other.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 17:50, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

"reportedly"
The cite for his proposed nomination has "Sources Say". I don't think we should go beyond that till the official announcement. True, all the leaks so far have been made official (as far as I know), but if Obama's team finds out something against Chu, they'll just stop mentioning his name and announce someone else. That's why I put "reportedly" in. &mdash;JerryFriedman (Talk) 06:38, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

controversy
Four references from reliable_sources have been provided demonstrating that the BP-related project has drawn considerable controversy.5p0gSp (talk) 07:55, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

UC perks
I kept the mention of the UC perks, but removed the sentence "Records produced under the California Public Relations(sic!) Act also show that he was one of at least 29 employees offered unusual perks in hiring letters, including a $50,000 signing bonus and an unusual boost in pension benefits, perks which the university had not made public." because (1) this sentence repeats the same issue in a way that makes it sound as if it was an additional issue and (2) the sentence gives the impression that this information would not have come to the fore if it hadn't been for the newspaper referring to the California Public Records Act, when in fact it came to the fore because of an audit which the UC commissioned and provided for the public on the internet. (The fact that the newspaper got the information a month earlier was relevant for its readers back then, but it has no relevance in this article.) Looking at the bigger picture, it is doubtful if this belongs in this article at all, since it was a common practice at the university, and since it was not the individual employees' responsibility to check if the perks were consistent with the Regents' policies. &mdash; Sebastian 07:43, 23 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree that it is doubtful that this information belongs in Chu's biography. The PricewaterhouseCoopers study reflects on the UC administration, not on Chu. I'm removing the sentence, a non sequitur, which appears in the midst of Chu's bio and seems out of place there. Also, I wonder if it is appropriate information to have in a biography at all. It would be original research to draw any conclusion about how the findings apply to Chu. WP:BLP requires that: "Biographical material must be written with the greatest care and attention to verifiability, neutrality and avoiding original research." If I've missed something, by all means, let's discuss it further. Sunray (talk) 02:40, 26 December 2008 (UTC)