Talk:Steven Hassan

CEI's collected material on Hassan
https://culteducation.com/group/1379-steven-alan-hassan.html Most of the material there is published by CEI (the org. founded by Hassan critic/competitor Rick Alan Ross, under one domain name or the other). But not being "neutral" source material (there really isn't any such thing) doesn't preclude all use of it within WP:DUE lines. And at very least it gives suggestions on what to look into in sources that are not connected to Hassan–Ross disputation. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:19, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Bromley and Shupe criticisms
There was a recent disagreement regarding this quote in the criticisms section:

"Despite their criticisms, Shupe and Bromley regarded Hassan as perhaps the best in his business and invited him to contribute to their book, which was otherwise critical of the anti-cult movement."

Another editor claimed it was accurate, but it is missing important context, such as the fact that Shupe and Bromley don't agree with what Hassan wrote and do not recommend him. As a result, it gives the impression that these scholars endorse him, when they are actually outspoken critics of him.

I suggest removing this quote or replacing it with the following sentence to more accurately reflect the information in the source:

"Since Hassan is a prominent figure in the anti-cult movement, Schupe and Bromley invited him to present an opposing view in their book that was otherwise critical of the movement." Theobvioushero (talk) 16:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Another editor was not making a claim about accuracy; they merely pointed our that it is what the cited source says. The source does not say they chose him "because he is a prominent figure", it says they chose him "because they consider him to be perhaps the best in his business." It is obvious from what precedes the sentence that Shupe and Bromley do not endorse Hassan and are critical of him, so the context you say is missing is not missing. Harold the Sheep (talk) 20:49, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
 * The word "despite," though, implies that the information in that sentence contrasts with the criticisms listed above it, but this is not true. The book was intended to discredit the ideas of Hassan and others in the movement. They merely offered Hassan a chance to respond.
 * Similarly, the word "best" also suggests a value judgement in favor of Hassan, but this is false too. Shupe and Bromley are very open about the fact that they don't consider Hassan to be an authority and that they don't recommend him to anyone. It is clear from the article that the word "best" refers to his prominence in the anti-cult movement, so this should be clear in the quote as well.
 * The sentence, as it is currently written, falsely implies that Shupe and Bromley decided to collaborate with Hassan because they considered him to be good at what he does. Therefore, it needs greater clarity to better articulate that the book was not written "despite" their criticisms, but was written as a result of their criticisms, to further discredit Hassan and others in the movement.
 * It also might just be best to remove the sentence altogether, since it doesn't appear to add relevant information regarding criticisms against Hassan that has not already been explained in the preceding paragraphs. Theobvioushero (talk) 01:22, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

General criticism of the word 'cult' and of opposition to cults
This article is about Hassan. Other people's expressed views about the word 'cult' or about what they call a wider 'anti-cult' group are not appropriate. This article is not to be used as a coatrack for putting other people's views about the topic of cults or anti-cults. The claim in some ES that "they are applying this to the article subject" is not supported. This seems to be a synthesis used to imply that these are all directly about the article subject. Cambial — foliar❧ 07:57, 15 June 2024 (UTC)


 * @Cambial Yellowing The Misunderstanding Cults part was a coatrack so I removed it - chapters in that book cite Hassan twice and mention him once in passing, no other discussion of him in that book.
 * I have more mixed feelings about the Boston Magazine piece. I altered how it was written here. I hope this is more neutral now? I think a minor amount of the context about what Shupe and Bromley believe is probably necessary.
 * I also think having "criticism" sections on BLPs is not a great idea. Maybe rename the heading to "reception", and encapsulate both positive and negative reception of Hassan's books/works/theories? That's what James R. Lewis's article has and I think it works fine there. PARAKANYAA (talk) 05:07, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's necessarily more neutral, it has just softened what is actually quite strong criticism of "Hassan and his fellow cultbusters". For example, on the subject of "cult experts" like Hassan benefitting financially from the exaggerated fear of cults, you have mentioned that Hassan "reduced his rates". But the article is more explicit than that; it says he reduced his rates, which had soared during the dot com era, to $2500 a day, and that the client discussed in the article (Charles Laquidira) says that he paid the equivalent of the yearly wages of an average blue collar worker. Obviously, we needn't say all that, but it's a bit stronger than "he reduced his rates", which doesn't really say anything much.
 * I think there is a good argument that the source is discussing criticism of anticult operatives in a simultaneously general and specific sense. However, I don't intend to revert again if you and others are convinced that that is not the case. Harold the Sheep (talk) 23:24, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Interesting interview
From Religioscope. From 2003. Interviews are primary and thus have due weight concerns, but maybe it could be useful. It's from Religioscope (and the interviewer is Jean-François Mayer, who is more on the anti-brainwashing side of things funnily enough, though in my experience with his works I find them to be quite good and fair to all perspectives involved), but I find it gives a good look into Hassan's thoughts on things. PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:09, 16 July 2024 (UTC)