Talk:Steven Hassan/Archive 3

Examining the claims made within Hassan's CV included in this bio
Steven Hassan's CV reflects his unreliability as a source for Wikipedia. See He claims that he is a recipient of the "Jerusalem Medal" presented to him by "Nahum Itzkovitz, Director General of the Israel Ministry of Social Affairs and Services, 2010." However, no such medal exists as an award presented by any arm of the Israeli government. Hassan was simply one of the experts consulted by the Israel Ministry of Social Affairs during their process of development regarding policies about destructive cults. See https://culteducation.com/reference/general/AnExaminationOfThePhenomenonOfCultsInIsrael.pdf Both my name and Steven Hassan are listed as experts consulted by the ministry team. All of the experts consulted received a gift from Nahum Itzkovitz, which was a kind of metal coin finished in bronze mounted within a wood display, it says Jerusalem on it, but it is not a medal, award or anything other than a souvenir. Hassan lists it under "Honors" calling it a medal. It is not. See https://freedomofmind.com/gift-of-jerusalem-medal/

This is one example of the ridiculous way Hassan conflates his CV and embellishes his history and acheivements.

In his CV Hassan also claims "Instructor at Harvard Law School Trial Advocacy program 2017." However, this was only a workshop and Hassan isn't listed anywhere. See [type=3&eid=ARA43J23sprJ9AxahILF40grWGFPVukR9v_3A8xZBwvOCGrahMTjnpAr3g7845dsqYwGlx0ZJH7nR786&__xts__[0]=68.ARBWAp6L7vTYPIPSaW5Kgcn_U4svl6z3NgNoSMr9GKdBGJeksSmnZrLdrq-kYlrCMR2ICXk86n7Nj-MzohGW_0umkJ4CT0gdQetmrax11L8rqUplguW_ULPDAYXLv1JxX01Fq5Hn0hZ4SniyVehNJZNnVj_-NpwXUvgTXTMOLQXVx0exqzxmE1Si58qsT4Kss_1VQums8NndqrJvPXzZyyTLwwXSx7uaSFj3GhifMbTpNTP3jlYUA2Hmft5k7xO-QhyCZvrfjQ7DgUjACokk1q114KqSIornoKg0EjOeoXvBk-VRW-r2AuzXTdSnelxOMj2y2qL_tK-cPHArC2SvX35D5] And see  He apparently volunteered to do something for the event and attended. But he has never been paid staff or an "instructor" at Harvard.

His bio might state, "Steven Hassan attended a Harvard Law School workshop in 2017." But is attending a workshop really noteworthy, other than mentioning the name of "Harvard Law School"?

Hassan also claims within his CV that he is a "Member of The Program in Psychiatry and the Law at Massachusetts Mental Health Center, A Teaching Hospital of Harvard Medical School."

However, the letter Hassan posts is not from Harvard Medical School. See https://freedomofmind.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Edited-Confirmation-of-4th-year-psychiatry-residents-harvard-medical-2.pdf

Another letter Hassan posted cites him as a "valued presenter," not faculty, not an "instructor." See https://freedomofmind.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Peteet-letter-for-Hassan.pdf

It's laudable that Steven Hassan volunteers his time to help out doing some classroom presentations. But they are not at "Harvard Medical School." And what is not laudable is using such presentations as the basis to claim that he is somehow an "instructor" at Harvard Medical School. He does seem to be using the name of Harvard repeatedly to burnish his CV, but the closest he has actually come to Harvard Medical School is a hospital affiliated with the school and a workshop sponsored by Harvard Law School.

His Bio can correctly state, "Steven Hassan has done volunteer presentations to classes at a teaching hospital associated with Harvard Medical School." But is that really notable, other than the name of Harvard, for a Wikipedia bio?Rick Alan Ross (talk) 17:27, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Can you explain what you mean when you say his "CV"? Are you talking specifically about his bio on cambridge college? (from here: &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 18:04, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Steven Hassan's publicly displayed CV at his website. He has a history of making exaggerated and/or unsubstantiated claims. He has done this repeatedly and cannot be relied upon as a source for this bio,Rick Alan Ross (talk) 18:40, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Two questions: 1. Are we using the CV on his website as a source in this article? 2. Even if you are right and he is making false claims on his CV bio, what does that have to do with the validity of his Cambridge College bio? &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 18:44, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * No. The point in examining his CV is to recognize that he is not a reliable source and has a pattern of conflating. He probably submitted a bio for the Cambridge College website, which is not a a reliable source to base this Wikipedia bio on. Are you seriously going to include that he is an instructor at Harvard University based upon his claims and a website?Rick Alan Ross (talk) 18:55, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Ok thanks. I am not disagreeing that he is an unreliable source. Maybe he is. But we have no evidence that he is the author of the content on the cambridge college bio, and you are assuming without evidence that Cambridge College republished his material without vetting it. That is not a basis on which we can dispute the content. No, I am not going to include the statement he is an instructor at harvard based upon his claims. But I will include it based on information published by the reliable third party source of Cambridge College, and unless we can find something saying that is false, I see no reason to remove it or dispute it within the article. It is a notable. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 19:02, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * So you intend to publish on Wikpedia that Hassan is an instructor at Harvard based upon a single online college website blurb submitted most likely by Hassan? Much more importantly and directly on point, Harvard Univeristy's website does not mention Hassan anywhere. If you are going to base a statement on a website it must be based upon Harvard's website not another college. You really are not making much sense here. Please understand that I have researched this professionally. That is, I wrote and published a report at CultNews.com concerning Hassan's misrepresentations regarding Harvard. For this report I contacted Harvard directly and spoke with the people designated to address this. Melody Jackson, spokesperson for Harvard Law School, told CultNews that Hassan has never held any faculty appointed teaching position as an “instructor” at Harvard Law School. Rick Alan Ross (talk) 20:05, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * WP:STRAWMAN. The article does not say what you alleging it says. I find it iconic that your only source is your own self published article, which wikipedia gives a big red warning it is a deprecated source when I used it... You objected is noted in the article. What I think is notable about you is the fact you are here trolling this talk page for days on end. I wonder if the media would publish an article on that so we can add that notable fact to you biography? &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 21:07, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I actually know people in the appropriate media that I can suggest do just that. Shall I? RobP (talk) 21:16, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * No :) I was just be rhetorical. We should try to be fair to all our biographical articles. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 21:54, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * If you want to contact the media feel free to do that. I have nothing to hide. The facts are the facts. Hassan is not and never has been an instructor at Harvard. A volunteer speaker at a class or workshop certainly doesn't give him that status. This is a grossly misleading claim based upon puffery. And anyone from the media would see through this after a few phone calls to Harvard. I called Harvard and that is what their official spokesperson told me. Hassan knows this. Putting such false claims in this bio could be embarrassing for WikipediaRick Alan Ross (talk) 22:54, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * A phone call from Harvard is not a valid source we can use. Why are you not getting the point? Read WP:Verifiability. On one hand you are telling us to discount things we can find in reliable sources, and then you are asking to put things in we cannot verify at all. You are being totally disingenuous in these exchanges. The article as it is, is neutral. It has no promotional content, and it is entirely verifiable and properly referenced. If you think otherwise, feel free to contact the admin noticeboards. There seems to be not a single editor weighing in here to support your position. I think I have made my points. I will be stepping away now. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 23:06, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Facts are facts. I invite any Wikipedia editor to genuinely investigate whether or not Steven Hassan claims included in this bio are true or false. If Wikipedia is to have any credibility it must not include false and/or misleading information in its biographies. This bio has become largely puffery that promotes the notion that Steven Hassan was or is an instructor at Harvard University, which he is not and never has been. Nor was Hassan a high ranking leader in the Unification Church that met with its founder Rev. Moon. Also, his BITE model is unoriginal, derivative use of preexisting work with his label, which is not acknowledged in this bio. It is an embarrassment for Wikipedia to include such false and misleading information in a bio. How can anyone trust Wikipedia as anything with such distortions within a bio. Sadly, it appears no one really cares and that Wikipedia biographies can be manipulated by editors with an agenda or just too lazy to do the necessary research. I know this first hand. My bio was edited by cult members working for a cult to discredit me and they used Wikipedia, until they were exposed and banned. I don't post on Wikipedia very much. When I do it's because false and/or misleading information is being posted by editors.Rick Alan Ross (talk) 23:25, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * We are not investigators. WP:Original Research is prohibited. We just publish what we can verify in sources that meet policy requirements. If you want your claims to be treated credibly, please consider actually reviewing our policies so we can have a conversation. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 20:51, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks. There was a time, due to cult members editing my bio, that I printed out and kept on my desk core Wikipedia policies. I am familiar with them. thankfully, the cult members that once worked on Wikipedia as editors seem to be gone after several were banned. Hopefully, I prefer to spend time editing cult education archives.Rick Alan Ross (talk) 13:09, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

False claims regarding the Unification Church
Hassan claims that He "rose to the rank of assistant director of the Church at their National Headquarters, and personally met with Sun Myung Moon during numerous leadership sessions." But there are no meaningful citations to support this claim other than Hassan's website and the website of his friend Anton Hein, who runs another website called Apologetics Index. In fact, Hassan was a fund raising van driver according to numerous accounts. He was never a high ranking leader in the Unification Church. A high ranking official of the church would not be a van driver as Hassan was immediately before he was deprogrammed. He seems to keep changing his story and embellishing it here.Rick Alan Ross (talk) 19:49, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
 * The source says, quote "Steven ultimately rose to the rank of Assistant Director of the Unification Church at National Headquarters." I restored the prior language to that statement in the article saying he "claimed" that to be true. It is true that he made the claim. Do you have a source that we can use to establish that his claim is false? If you can show me a critical source that meets the requirements of WP:Reliable Source, I would be glad to integrate that information. But in all our exchanges so far, you have not been able to point me to such a source. If all the existing reliable sources of Hassan are positive, then it is only natural that this article would also be largely positive. Our goal is to reflect the body of reliable sources. I spent some time searching sources in the recent past, and I did not turn up anything resembling a comprehensive reliable review of Hassan and his works. Its primarily favorable news media reports that exist as sources we can use. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 23:56, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Please read the repeated story that Hassan has told over and over, again and again about his final days with the "Moonies" Unification Church. He states repeatedly that he was driving a van for a fund raising team. This is not a high leadership position, but rather a lower level job, that would not be done by a high ranking leader. Hassan apparently was not functioning at some national leadership level and as a close associate of Moon when he drove the van. Hassan has embellished his story over the years to give himself greater and greater importance. Here is one recent source. https://slate.com/human-interest/2021/06/steven-hassan-former-moonie-trumpism-cult-theory.html] Whenever Hassan tells the story of his deprogramming it typically includes his motor vehicle accident, when he fell asleep at the wheel while driving a van. Another and another Rick Alan Ross (talk) 13:32, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't disagree with you, but to arrive at your conclusion requires WP:Original Research or WP:Synthesis. I feel like we just keep talking in circles. The conclusions that part of his story is false is not part of the sources you are sharing. To arrive at your conclusion, we have to go a step beyond what is in the sources, conducting our own research, and publishing our own conclusion. We cannot do that because of our policies. Do you have a source that clearly articulates what you are saying, that meets reliable source requirements? &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 14:43, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
 * OK. It's a shame though that Hassan gets away with conflating his history. It seems like there is an effort made by some people to promote him here.Rick Alan Ross (talk) 21:53, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

== He was an instructor in Psychiatry Grand Rounds at Harvard Medical School's Psychiatry Residency Training Program during October 2017, and was a teacher of 4th-year psychiatry at Brigham and Women’s Hospital for 17 years. ==

Hassan has been a volunteer speaker. He was not paid as a professional instructor, so this is misleading. None of the supporting end notes support this conclusion and are instead claims essentially made by Hassan to promote himself, though his bio, publisher, etc. There is no official statement or evidence from Harvard to support these claims.

Hassan has never taught at "Harvard Medical School," but rather was a volunteer speaker for a class, apparently invited by an official instructor who actually taught this class within a hospital, which is affiliated with Harvard. This is not the same as being either an instructor and/or speaking at Harvard Medical School. Hassan had no genuine instructor/teacher status.

See https://freedomofmind.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Edited-Confirmation-of-4th-year-psychiatry-residents-harvard-medical-2.pdf

This is a letter Hassan has posted online supposedly confirming his claimed instructor status at Harvard Medical School. However, note the letterhead, this not the letterhead of Harvard Medical School.

The bio sentence must be corrected to reflect the actual facts.

It might correctly read -- Hassan was a volunteer speaker for a class within Longwood Hospital, which is a Harvard-affiliated teaching hospital. He also has been a volunteer speaker at Brigham and Women’s at Longwood.

See http://www.harvardlongwoodpsychiatry.org/about/partneringinstitutions.html

This official website explains in some detail the Harvard-affiliated status of Longwood. But again, this is a hospital affiliated with Harvard and NOT Harvard Medical School. These distinctions must be made if this bio is going to be accurate and fact based.

Volunteer speaking is not usually included in Wikipedia bios, but if it is, it must be factually correct. No puffery, which conflates volunteer speaking as somehow conferring professional "instructor" or "teacher" status, which is a paid position. This bio must not incorrectly state the facts or mislead readers that any presentation done by Hassan took place at "Harvard Medical School," which it did not and is both a false claim and inappropriate. Rick Alan Ross (talk) 18:13, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Bogus Harvard claims without meaningful supporting citations
There have been edits recently to this bio eliminating balance and misleading readers. Hassan has only been a volunteer classroom speaker at a hospital associated with Harvard Medical School. He has never been paid to instruct and has no genuine professional teaching status at Harvard. Please note that all the citations are Hassan's own self promotion through Tedx, his webiste and other unreliable sources, such as Apologetics Index, run by Anton Hein, who is an associate of Hassan. Hassan certainly misled the "Daily Beast" regarding his supposed status at Harvard, which has been minimal and only as a volunteer. Wikipedia must not allow Hassan to use its platform for self-promotion and misleading puffery. Michael Langone's criticism of Hassan's methodology has also been deleted. This is not a balanced bio and it contains false and/or misleading statements, which cannot be objectively supported according to Wikipedia guidelines.Rick Alan Ross (talk) 19:42, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I restored the removed sentences. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 23:53, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
 * But what about Hassan's false claim that he was an "instructor" at Harvard? He apparently did drop in as a volunteer to speak to class that was part of a hospital residency program at a hospial affiliated with Harvard. But that is not Harvard Medical School. Nor does being a volunteer speaker invited to do a talk for a class somehow confer upon him "instructor" status at "Harvard." He is conflating his CV and the Wikipedia platform is being abused to mislead readers. And other than the "Daily Beast" citation, the citations provided are from self promotional sources. A small local Tedx talk where Hassan no doubt provided self promotional bio information and the same from a promotional information blurb for his book. These are not authoritative sources. Hassan has no official status at Harvard, has never been employed by Harvard and is providing false and/or misleading information.Rick Alan Ross (talk) 12:55, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
 * We already talked this over. There is a reliable source that makes the claim. It may be a false claim, you may be right. But we have no reliable source saying it is a false claim. The best you had was self published article authored by yourself. If you have a good source to establish what you are saying, I'd be glad to incorporate the information. &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 14:44, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. You are right. No fact checking on Hassan at Daily Beast. And it seems there are no cults angry enough to expose him. At this point Harvard doesn't seemn to be very concerned either.Rick Alan Ross (talk) 21:46, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I have not provided factual proof that Hassan has not taught at Harvard Medical School in another talk section below.Rick Alan Ross (talk) 18:40, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Paid professional or volunteer?
It seems relevant to point out that being a volunteer speaker for a class or a few classes does not confer any official "instructor" or "teacher" status. Claiming to be a teacher and/or instructor infers that you somehow have paid professional status. It is my understanding that Steven Hassan has neither. Using Wikipedia to make such exaggerated and unsubstantiated claims of self importance is not appropriate here. Specifically, being a volunteer speaker for a class at a hospital associated with Harvard Medical (but not Harvard Medical School itself) and appearing as a volunteer speaker for another hospital. It's nice that Hassan does presentations at times for free, but that doesn't confer upon him any professional paid teaching status at either hospital.Rick Alan Ross (talk) 17:57, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Conflated bio claim
Steven Hassan was invited by a teacher to talk to his class. This was not an "instructor" position and did not take place at "Harvard Medical School," but rather a hospital affiliated with Harvard. This is a conflated claim used to trade on the name of Harvard. Wikipedia must not allow people to use a biogrophy to make self-serving and false claims for self promotional purposes. Hassan does this all the time. For example, he claims on his Linkedin page that he received an award from Israel, but only actually was given a souvenir gift from an Israeli official. I received the same gift, but do not claim it as an "award" on my CV.Rick Alan Ross (talk) 17:37, 20 January 2023 (UTC)


 * These statements about Hassan's biography come from the sources cited in the article. However, upon review of the sources, I think there should be some discussion about whether those sources are independent, reliable, secondary sources. The first is a TEDx page that features a description of a video lecture Hassan gave (which I had to use Wayback Machine to retrieve), which states he was an instructor/teacher at Harvard Medical. The other sources are publisher biographies, which were likely written by Hassan himself, but we cannot be for sure. The last one was an article for the Daily Beast that was written by him, so that one is not reliable for our purposes. I think it'd be okay to remove these small parts of the article, unless there is some strong sources backing it up (not writer bios or TEDx). --Jacquesparker0 (talk) 22:55, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes. Probably the best thing is to just drop this from the bio as the sources are tainted and not independent. He probably did do some volunteer work by talking to classes. But it's kind of like George Santos. Once you see some lying or deliberate exaggerations you wonder if anything is accurate.Rick Alan Ross (talk) 13:14, 22 January 2023 (UTC)


 * There must be changes made for the bio to be factual and accurate. Change "He was an instructor in Psychiatry Grand Rounds at Harvard Medical School's Psychiatry Residency Training Program during October 2017, and was a teacher of fourth-year psychiatry at Brigham and Women’s Hospital for 17 years." to He has been a volunteer classroom speaker at both Longwood and Brigham and Women's Hospitals in Boston, which are affiliated with Harvard Medical School. Hassan certainly isn't qualified to teach "fourth year psychiatry." And he has never been employed as either a teacher or instructor at Harvard Medical School.Rick Alan Ross (talk) 13:10, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:37, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Steven Hassan at Ralph J . Bunche Library is At State Department September 11th 2017 Beth Lampron State Department Official.jpg

"Cult scale" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cult_scale&redirect=no Cult scale] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Pichpich (talk) 19:34, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

His positions on trans people
Can we add something about this? https://twitter.com/CultExpert/status/1279890726885695488 Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 02:43, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Twitter is not a reliable source, nor is that blog website you tried to add. Since you're not a new editor here, I'm not sure why you've ignored the usual WP:RS and WP:OR. Perhaps WP:PODIUM is at play?   ▶ I am Grorp ◀  02:59, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I have not been able to find digitally any reliable secondary sources reporting on his position on trans people, so at the moment it might be too soon to put here. --Jacquesparker0 (talk) 17:34, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

COI
Since you're the one who tagged the article as COI back in September, please make some sort of note here on the talk page to elaborate (who, how much, which content, etc.). ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 06:04, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The user was, who is mentioned at the top of the talk page. I'm guessing that the letters stand for Steven Hassan Freedom of Mind. Judging by their talk page and contributions this user both is and isn't Steven Hassan himself. I've removed the COI tag. Harold the Sheep (talk) 06:37, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh, ok. I notice the mdl one on the COI list, too. Langone explains that a paragraph was not accurate and tried to remove it, yet that content is still in the article. Can you look at that, please?    ▶ I am Grorp ◀  07:01, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * That content is not still in the article, please get your facts straight before asking me to do your work for you, it's getting to be a habit. The edit you are talking about was made by someone claiming to be Langone back in 2020 and reverted 5 minutes later by an editor who pointed out that we don't know who they are but that if they are who they say then there is a COI. That content appears to have stayed in the article until I removed it a few weeks ago and replaced it with a more detailed and accurate summary of the source. Harold the Sheep (talk) 20:09, 30 November 2023 (UTC)


 * It is still in the article. I can research histories, too. I brought it up for discussion because if I tried to edit it out, you would just revert me (like you've done before). There is no reason NOT to believe the editor really was Langone. The content was originally added in 2017 by with this edit in response to a suggestion by  on this archived thread. It was removed by an IP editor saying they were Langone, reverted by  (now indef-blocked for disruption and edit warring), followed by the same paragraph removed by a newly-created account  saying they were Langone, followed by another revert by Francis Schonken—both times telling Langone to use the talk page (which as a new editor, why would they even know what that is).


 * Though the paragraph isn't word for word the same, the concept is still closely there.


 * The paragraph Langone twice tried to remove is this: In 1995, Michael Langone questioned Hassan's "humanistic counseling approach." Langone suggested that Hassan's intervention method "runs the risk of imposing clarity, however subtly" and "thereby manipulating the client." with the two edit summaries "I deleted the paragraph attributed to me, Michael Langone, because (a) the critique made 30 years ago is not valid today and (b) the summary of the critique was not accurate." and "I am MIchael Langone, the person quoted in this paragraph. I deleted the paragraph because (a) it is dated and no longer accurate and (b) the paragraph wasn't even an accurate summary of what I said 32 years ago.


 * Meanwhile, the current article says this: Michael Langone, an advocate for exit counseling, questions Hassan's humanistic counseling approach. According to Langone, Hassan's "Strategic Intervention Therapy" operates on the assumption that, deep down, all members of "mind control groups" want to get out of the group. In the context of family intervention, the "counselor knows best what the cultist really wants" approach contains the risk of the counselor "manipulating the cultist from point A ("I'll talk to you because my family requested it") to point B ("I want to leave the cult") while mistakenly believing that he is helping the cultist "grow"." [citation from 1995]


 * How is that not the same thing that Langone tried to remove because it was outdated and inaccurate?   ▶ I am Grorp ◀  23:46, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

At a bare minimum, the information should have already been properly dated. If Langone said something in 1995, the article should have already clearly explain that he said it in 1995. The entire crit. section is sourced to old sources. While subtle, this is a BLP issue. Attribution requires context, and the age of a source does matter. Grayfell (talk) 03:58, 1 December 2023 (UTC)


 * The book is "Recovery from Cults: help for victims of psychological and spiritual abuse" dated 1995.


 * See https://www.amazon.com/Recovery-Cults-Victims-Psychological-Spiritual/dp/0393313212 1995
 * Also see https://archive.org/details/recoveryfromcult00mich 1993
 * This would reflect a view of Hassan's approach through what he calls "Strategic Intervention Therapy.Rick Alan Ross (talk) 19:57, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

POV issues
Many recent edits to this article have added generalized anti-deprogramming and pro-NRM rhetoric that is not specific to this BLP subject. The purpose seems to frame the voice in this article by attributing another subject (e.g., anti-deprogramming) to this person. The particular over-reaching sections are "Deprogramming and exit counseling" and "Criticism". See WP:PODIUM. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 03:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * This is nonsense. All of the recently added material is derived from academic sources that are specifically referring to the article subject. I'll provide full quotes if you insist. Harold the Sheep (talk) 04:00, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I would like that so I can verify. You can send them to me by email, if you prefer.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀  04:05, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Deprogramming and exit counseling section

 * If this is specifically about the 2006 book by Anson Shupe and Susan Darnell (Agents of Discord), then I'll point out that that book makes a larger argument about the American anti-cult movement, of which Steven Hassan was/is a part (whether he agrees with the term or not). I don't have the book on hand so I am not able to verify the exact page numbers, but the book does address him at points.
 * That being said, the subsection for Deprogramming and exit counseling does have a bit of primary sourcing, which may constitute original research (WP:NOR). --Jacquesparker0 (talk) 17:42, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The only primary sources in the Deprogramming and exit counseling section are Hassan's statement from his website and his book. The first refers to his own clearly stated anti-deprogramming views ("Never did I ever abduct, restrain, hit or threaten anybody. I did not and do not like the deprogramming method and stopped doing them in 1977! I have spoken out publicly against forcible deprogrammings since 1980. Read my two books...") and the second is a quote from the book in which he seems to put a caveat on that in certain circumstances. How is it original research to use Hassan's own published words to communicate his views on the subject?
 * Agents of Discord certainly makes a larger argument about the American anti-cult movement, but a number of sections in the book focus specifically on Hassan, partly because he is someone for whom the authors seem to have a qualified respect. In the cited section, however, they are drawing attention to the fact that certain of his claims are explicitly contradicted by affidavits from victims and indeed by his own account of one of his deprogrammings. One of the affidavits is quoted at length, as is Hassan's account of the same events. The book is to a significant extent a documented critique of the practice of deprogramming, and as such it could be described, like Hassan himself, as "anti-deprogramming". But a critical perspective on practices like abduction and detention, backed up with documents, analysis and reasoned arguments from academic sources, should not be dismissed as "anti-deprogramming and pro-NRM rhetoric". For one thing, the NRMs are not discussed, pro or contra, in any way in the book. The pages cited in this section (pp 149-152) are specifically about Steven Hassan, indeed the subtitle of the discussion is "Steven A. Hassan". Harold the Sheep (talk) 21:55, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * These are all fair points. I suppose I should have read more carefully what the article actually says, my bad. And I agree with your assessment of Agents of Discord. Certainly there is anti-deprogramming rhetoric and bias in the book, but that doesn't mean that everything in the book is wrong, invalid, and so on. Biased sources don't make the WP article biased necessarily. --Jacquesparker0 (talk) 21:13, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Criticism section
(clarification: these 2 subsections have been started in response to Grorp's claim at the start of this section, that The block quote also addresses Grorp's concern expressed below in his "Some notes" section about not being able to access this particular source.

Here is the passage from p. 401 of Violence and New Religious Movements used in the Criticism section. It is clearly specific to the article subject:"For another example, see the writings of Steven Hassan (1988, 1994), an ex-Unificationist who underwent coercive deprogramming and later became a bona fide degreed counselor and who describes himself as once a proponent and practitioner of the coercive type. Later Hassan publically repudiated the coercive variety and turned to a 'gentler' form, which he calls 'strategic intervention therapy,' though he still maintains that the targeted groups are inherently 'destructive.' With Hassan's nonviolent intervention technique, however, one wonders how many members of NRMs would willingly enter into such 'discussions' with the foreknowledge that the 'counselor's' entire purpose is not to ascertain their religious sincerity or their full understanding of the extent of their spiritual decisions but rather is to convince them to abandon their faith. (Recall that the 'counselor's' client is not the NRM member but rather someone else who hired the 'counselor.')" Harold the Sheep (talk) 02:08, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Some notes
(in no particular order)
 * I found a PDF of Introduction to New and Alternative Religions in America which includes the Gallagher and Bromley chapters. Don't know if it's okay to link to it in the article's citations or not. But here's the link (https://bahai-library.com/pdf/g/gallagher_ashcraft_new_religions.pdf) if anyone wants to verify content which cites this source. No page numbers available.
 * I cannot obtain page 401 of Shupe (google books won't cough it up). Harold the Sheep: Do you have an image/scan/photo of page 401?
 * I oppose the inclusion of so much Shupe information because Shupe is rabid pro-NRM and anti-ACM (anti-cult movement) that he can't think straight anymore. Shupe scoffs at the terms/ideas of "cults" and "brainwashing". As someone who has seen the effects of brainwashing by high-control groups (that Shupe has defended), and has read some of Shupe's apologism about such groups, I think Shupe is extremist. Shupe also hates Hassan and denigrates him personally, not just his techniques ("Shupe often calls Hassan a “professional ex-Moonie,” questioning the livelihood he has built around his past. “Way down deep, it’s like he’s been wrestling with a demon about his own involvement in the Moonies”. ) Remote diagnosing. And taking every opportunity to criticize.
 * The article quotes much by Bromley about why Hassan's approach is bad, but omits lines from the same source such as "The academics [Shupe & Bromley] turned to Hassan because they consider him to be perhaps the best in his business—and yet they remain critical of his approach." Such a line would help present better POV balance in the article.
 * I've added something along these lines. Harold the Sheep (talk) 03:35, 2 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Harold the Sheep's "Criticism" section presents the viewpoints of 5 authors, however he emphasizes the authors' opinions of the field (of deprogramming and/or exit counseling); whereas those sources present just a mention of Hassan, much in the way of an example, perhaps because Hassan is one of the more visible/outspoken/published individuals in those fields.
 * The date of Cult Mind Control (1988) was omitted, yet following right on the heels of Langone's "Hassan's preferred approach", which is present tense, leaves the reader to think that it is Hassan's current viewpoint. Placement of these two matters side-by-side is SYNTH (also framing). I thought I read previously that those that continued in the field after the fall of CAN (Ross and Hassan?), either modified their methods with the dawn of the anti-anti-cult-movement, or were not one of the hardcore deprogrammers. Not sure which. But CAN has been gone now 27 years and yet this article's criticism speaks like these things are happening currently. One needs to put them in the context of their time (e.g. state the date).

I could probably dig (and say) more, but that's all the time I allocated to this project today. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 06:55, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Please don't use the talk page as a dumping ground for your "in no particular order" notes and opinions. Let's keep it in order and address issues one by one. Harold the Sheep (talk) 20:58, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Dumping ground? I started this thread and you responded This is nonsense, so I went through and gave you some examples. And you say you want order but put your response above mine, contrary to best practices in WP:Talk page guidelines. Insulting other editors will get you nowhere fast. Try again.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀  22:26, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Was Hassan thrown out of the "Moonies" or dramatically "deprogrammed"?
According to Steven Hassan's account of his departure from the Unification Church ("Moonies") he was "deserted," not quite so dramatically "deprogrammed."

In their book "Prison or Paradise: The New Religious Cults" (Fortress Press, Philadelphia 1980) authors James and Marcia Rudin relate the following account. "Steve is bitter when he remembers how quickly the church deserted him after his automobile accident. 'I deeply believed the group was a loving family that cared about its members. As soon as I was seriously injured and could no longer collect funds or recruit, The Family called my satanic real family. The Moonies couldn't get rid of me fast enough'" (page 38).

See https://archive.org/details/prisonorparadise00rudi

So this was not quite such a dramatic deprogramming as Hassan relates today. But rather after the church dumped him he was "bitter" and probably much more easily persuaded by former members that the church was bad.

Also, given this narrative it's hard to believe that Hassan was really a high ranking member, but rather simply a regular fund raiser and van driver. He hardly seems like a national leader working closely with Rev. Moon.

The book states, "Yet one midnight in the spring of 1976 the Family deserted Steve when he rammed his car into the back of a truck on the Baltimore Beltway after seventy-two continuous hours of fund raising" (page 38).

Hassan apparently was a regular member working long hours on a mobile fund raising team. A common job at that time within the Unification Church and not a lofty leadership position.Rick Alan Ross (talk) 13:27, 2 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Per WP:NOTFORUM, this is a lot of "story". Is there something you want changed somewhere? Are there page numbers in the book this applies to (no one is going to read the book to figure it out themselves)? It is more helpful if you make your request succinct. For example:
 * Please change "Joe went to the store" to "Joe went to the gym". Here is a source for that. http://joegoes.com/gymtime.html The reason is because thus-and-such.
 * It is helpful to other editors if you put your request in the form of an "edit request", because it is instantly identifiable as a request, and it tags a page with coding that alerts general editors looking for something to do (and not just page watchers of this page) that someone has requested a change.


 * The easiest way for you to make such requests, is by clicking on → Edit Request Wizard and following the instructions. Bookmark it, and give it a try.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀  14:51, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
 * OK.
 * Change this paragraph -- In 1976, after working for two full days without sleep, Hassan fell asleep while driving, resulting in a serious automobile accident that required medical care. Hassan's parents hired "deprogrammers" who seized him from his sister's home and took him to an apartment. After five days of isolation and intensive deprogramming, Hassan became convinced that he had been "brainwashed" by the church.
 * To read -- In 1976, after working for two full days without sleep, Hassan fell asleep while driving, resulting in a serious automobile accident that required medical care. Hassan said, "As soon as I was seriously injured and could no longer collect funds or recruit, The Family called my satanic real family. The Moonies couldn't get rid of me fast enough." After "the church deserted him" Hassan's parents hired "deprogrammers" who spoke with him for several days. Subsequently, Hassan concluded that he had been "brainwashed" by the church. (Prison or Paradise: The New Religious Cults, By James and Marcia Rudin, Fortress Press, Philadelphia 1980 page 38). Rick Alan Ross (talk) 15:37, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

✅ See following 2 sections. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 19:06, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Uncorroborated claim must be deleted.
The claim, "By his own account, he rose to the rank of assistant director, and personally met with Sun Myung Moon during numerous leadership sessions" must be deleted. Citations are not credible and include only Hassan's website and another website closely aligned with him. There is no independent, reliable and/or credible source cited.

Contrary to this claim Hassan appears to have been a regular member that worked long hours fund raising and recruiting, rather than occupying a prominent high ranking national position with direct access to Rev. Moon. There is no reason to include this claim in the bio.

In the book "Prison or Paradise: The New Religious Cults," By James and Marcia Rudin, Fortress Press, Philadelphia 1980 on page 38 it states, "Yet one midnight in the spring of 1976 the Family deserted Steve when he rammed his car into the back of a truck on the Baltimore Beltway after seventy-two continuous hours of fund raising."

Why would a prominent high ranking national leader be doing such work, for such long hours and then be so quickly dumped? Doesn't make any sense, unless he was a regular member assigned to a mobile fund raising team.Rick Alan Ross (talk) 15:54, 2 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I changed some minor things, fixed some citations, removed one source that supported none of the nearby content, added Rudin, and tagged another source with "better source needed".


 * Rudin, the source you suggested, corroborates the assistant director content. I'm not sure about apologeticsindex.com; I lean towards unreliable source, however the most I might do at this point is tag it as "better source needed".


 * As to your assertion that Hassan couldn't possibly have been anything more than a low-level member who couldn't possibly have ever met Moon, I don't think you can draw that conclusion from the available information (at least not the limited amount I've read today). For example, if I compare to Scientology: anyone from the lowest of the low to the top executives in Scientology have been "beached" (summarily discarded) for similar issues (an inopportune accident that might lead to bad press), executives have routinely been required to work in the lowliest of jobs for days without sleep, all staff are routinely required to perform fund raising or sales duties in addition to their normal post, and L. Ron Hubbard was well known to mingle with everyone. I don't know anything about Moon or Moonies, though.


 * At this point, unless I get more familiar with the content and sources in this subject, I wouldn't consider deleting the content as requested, but I hope the few changes I made move the article closer to a better condition.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀
 * NO. Not accurate or properly cited within Wikipedia guidelines. There is only one citation used and it is to a website aligned with Hassan, which is Apologetics Index, run by long-time Hassan supporter and friend Anton Hein. No other support for the claims Hassan makes about being a high ranking member of the Unification Church and personally meeting with Rev. Moon. Must be deleted or Wikipedia guidelines for a bio violated and meaningless.Rick Alan Ross (talk) 12:40, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

✅ See following section. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 19:06, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Another request

 * No. You left out the most important part of the edit, which is Hassan was dumped by the Unification Church before the "deprogramming" began. As he said, "The Moonies couldn't get rid of me fast enough." He was deprogrammed after "the church deserted him."
 * Not quite so dramatic.
 * You have chosen to leave out what these facts. Yet you do acknowledge the source in another part of the bio.
 * I suggest edit per the following:
 * In 1976, after working for two full days without sleep, Hassan fell asleep while driving, resulting in a serious automobile accident that required medical care. Hassan said, "As soon as I was seriously injured and could no longer collect funds or recruit...The Moonies couldn't get rid of me fast enough." After "the church deserted him" Hassan's parents hired "deprogrammers" who spoke with him. Subsequently, Hassan concluded that he had been "brainwashed" by the church. (Prison or Paradise: The New Religious Cults, By James and Marcia Rudin, Fortress Press, Philadelphia 1980 page 38).Rick Alan Ross (talk) 20:03, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Improper citation -- Steven Hassan claim not noted or supported
"By his own account, he rose to the rank of assistant director, and personally met with Sun Myung Moon during numerous leadership sessions."

This false claim is not supported. The citation is wrong. There is nothing about Steven Hassan being "assistant director" or that he ever "met with Sun Myung Moon" in the book "Prison or Paradise" by James and Marcia Rudin.

Quite the contrary, the book indicates he was only a fund raiser and recruiter with no mention of anything else.

This false, unsupported, must be deleted from the bio. Rick Alan Ross (talk) 16:16, 5 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Contrary to your assertion of "no mention of anything else", page 37 of Rudin's book says "Steve Hassan, a former Unification-Church high official who was a national leader of CARP". The other claim (about meeting Moon) is unnecessary, and I removed it along with the apologeticsindex citation. I have made an edit accordingly.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀  19:06, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

✅   ▶ I am Grorp ◀  19:06, 5 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I stand corrected per page 37.
 * However, it still does not make any sense.
 * Why would a "high ranking" official of the Unification Church CARP organization be fund raising without sleep, and then be dumped so quickly by the church over a car accident?
 * Hassan has lied about teaching at Harvard and also regarding receiving an award from Israel.
 * It seems to me that he lied to the Rudins and that being a "high ranking" official is something he made up to embellish his story.Rick Alan Ross (talk) 19:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I would not be throwing around such accusations without a source. Why does it matter to you, anyway? Are you a competitor or enemy of his?   ▶ I am Grorp ◀  20:07, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * You don't seem to know much about it.
 * See https://cultnews.com/2023/02/is-steven-hassan-walking-recklessly-in-the-footsteps-of-george-santos/
 * And see https://cultnews.com/2019/10/author-steven-hassan-misleads-the-media-while-criticizing-others-for-doing-the-same/
 * Are you editing here as a friend, favor as a fan, or is he paying you?Rick Alan Ross (talk) 20:21, 5 December 2023 (UTC)


 * You are out of line. Fanboy? Paid? About all I know about you two is one has a website, one wrote a book, and both of you were involved in Cult Awareness Network. But at least Hassan is not the one "making work" on Wikipedia. As for those two links, they are on your website, so I'm not going to read them.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀  20:41, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

ANI
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue related to this talk page. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 03:24, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Historical Question
Is it not historically relevant and important to include that in 1976 Steven Hassan was "deserted" by the Unification Church? And that he was no longer a member of the church at the time of his "deprogramming"?

The book "Prison or Paradise" records these facts historically quoting Hassan directly and the book is cited as a credible source elsewhere in this bio. Doesn't this established fact add meaningful historical context to the "deprogramming"?Rick Alan Ross (talk) 16:49, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Archive mixup
There are 3 archives for this talk page:
 * Talk:Steven Hassan/Archive 1 (2007-2023)
 * Talk:Steven Hassan/Archive 8 (2021 & 2023)
 * Talk:Steven Hassan/Archive 9 (2023 only)

I don't know how 8 & 9 got created, nor how to get them back into an appropriate sequence. If anyone knows how to do this (technical-wise), please can you repair the issue? Thanks. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 03:21, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Fixed. And the duplicate threads in Archive 1 that were also in Archive 2 (formerly Archive 8) have been removed from Archive 1.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:05, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for fixing that, SMcCandlish. I couldn't have done it (correctly). I've set the archive counter (above) from 9 to 3.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀  18:09, 6 December 2023 (UTC)