Talk:Stillwater, Oklahoma

Trivia section, aka Items of interest
I spent some time pruning this, but there's still quite a bit of red-linked (likely non-notable) stuff. Plus most or all of this should be moved to the appropriate sections. The OSU stuff should probably migrate to Oklahoma State University–Stillwater. Cheers, Pete Tillman (talk), who grew up here.


 * Added links to notable-seeming redlinks. Deleted a non-notable golf course. Pete Tillman (talk) 02:38, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

This Is A List Of People Article?
Maybe some people should spend some time expanding and refining this article instead of adding more sports players to the list. Maybe the sports players should be split into their own sublist? Sbmeirow (talk) 21:02, 13 December 2010 (UTC)


 * When a notable residents list gets to long in an article, it can be split into a List of people from Stillwater, Oklahoma. There are many options for dividing that list into categories either with subtitles or a sortable table.  Most lists likely need sources, though, verifying the person is either from or lived in this city.  I tend to not include those who lived there only as students at a college (in this case Oklahoma State) since there is an Alumni list for that, but that's me.  --JonRidinger (talk) 22:06, 13 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I sorted the 'Notable Residents' by last name, then started moving some people into a new 'Sports' subsection (not sure if proper thing to do, but we can easily merge people back). I started going through each person and adding their born/death dates, and a mini summary of their professions (including wiki links).  Please spend a little bit of time expanding out some people so we can get this section cleaned up.  Thanks.  Sbmeirow (talk) 04:47, 15 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Per the person above, I decided to add a link to 'List of Oklahoma State University people' so duplicates can be removed from this article. Please do so. Sbmeirow (talk) 12:56, 15 December 2010 (UTC)


 * If you'd like an example of one option, see Kent, Ohio and List of people from Kent, Ohio. I prefer the sortable table option, though subheadings work just as well.  Like Stillwater, Kent is home to a large public university with several notable alumni (List of Kent State University alumni).  I list people on both the notable people from a specific city list and the alumni list if they went to the university and then stayed in town (i.e. weren't just there for school).  I'm not sure that is the standard (or if one exists), but it's one possibility to keep lists from getting too large.  In the long run, notable people lists need to end up as prose rather than straight lists, at least within the main article.  --JonRidinger (talk) 18:38, 15 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I did a little cleanup and tagged for sources as there are none. I think it would be helpful to remove names that are only associated with Stillwater via Oklahoma State University.  Not being familiar I'm not sure, but people like Bryant Reeves and T. Boone Pickens are probably more appropriate for the OSU alumni list than here unless they lived in and were/are part of Stillwater outside or in addition to the university.  I also removed the birth and death years.  They really aren't needed in a list like this.  --JonRidinger (talk) 18:51, 15 December 2010 (UTC)


 * On a page like this, i tend to agree with Jon. Would it be inappropriate to delete the OSU-only connections? I've put a call in to the Sheerar Museum to ask their Director for a list of notable residents who actually came from here/impacted the town.Fletcherspears (talk) 21:52, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Guidelines and suggestions
I've noticed several large additions being made. It's good to see some attention being given to the article, but make sure those who are adding content understand the Wikipedia policies of US city article guidelines, reliable sources, neutrality, conflict of interest, and notability. Also read the policy on external links. External links should not be included in the body of the article unless they are part of a reference (inside the brackets), which will show up at the bottom of the page. Having a "see this website for more details" is not appropriate. Also, any type of "best" or "is known for" statement needs to have a reliable and neutral source (i.e. not a promotional source from the city itself) with it. Bear in mind that just because something may have a reliable source does not mean it should be included in an encyclopedic article. The point of city articles is to give readers a general, but thorough, idea about what the city is like, how it came to be, and how it is run, etc. --JonRidinger (talk) 21:28, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Photos
Photos on the page are not the best quality, and really there's only one photo of the town (the Downtown picture); the rest are all from campus. The City has a Flickr site with no restrictions on photo sharing (intentional). Could someone who is more experienced perhaps upload a few of them to the page, maybe change the page's picture to something a little nicer? Fletcherspears (talk) 21:58, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Important Notes Before Editing This Article
Please review the following to get a better idea of what you should add to this article:
 * 1) Please follow the Wikipedia USCITY guideline for layout and content.
 * 2) Please examine these great articles for ideas: Lock Haven, Pennsylvania / Stephens City, Virginia / Kent, Ohio / Tulsa, Oklahoma / Grand Forks, North Dakota.
 * 3) Please ensure a person meets Wikipedia Notability requirements before adding to the "Notable People" section.

Please review the following before editing:
 * 1) Please document your source by citing a reference to prove your text is verifiable.
 * 2) Please add text that has a neutral point of view instead of sounding like an advertisement.
 * 3) Please read the "Editing, Creating, and Maintaining Articles" chapter from the book Wikipedia : The Missing Manual, ISBN 9780596515164.

Sbmeirow (talk) 09:00, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Holy bolding!
I removed quite a few bolded terms in the article. The use of boldface is pretty rare. Only the subject of the article is typically bolded along with any common synonyms (or in the case of cities, former or alternate names). See MOS:BOLD. I also removed embedded external links (See WP:EL). Most of them had the same link used as a reference anyway in the same paragraph, so not only is there no need for the link in the text, but those should be avoided anyway. Lastly, be careful with peacock language and weasel words and phrases like "is known for". Unless there is an outside reliable source that confirms the city is "well known" for certain aspects, then it shouldn't be here. Also bear in mind that while Oklahoma State may be well-known for something, that does not equate to Stillwater being well-known for the same thing. Really examine the content of the article; is it really critical information for a reader to get a good idea of what Stillwater is like or is it being used more as a promotional piece to make the city look good? Along with that, the list of notable people should reflect people who are actual natives of Stillwater or were otherwise part of the city in other ways besides just focusing on well-known notable OSU alumni. Since there is an article for OSU and a separate list for alumni, duplicating it here doesn't serve much purpose. --JonRidinger (talk) 04:48, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Cleanup tag
I replaced the cleanup tag on the article. Many of my reasons are listed above and I have tried to fix some of the problems. While work has gone into adding appropriate sections, there are still many issues in the general language and writing of the article as well as point of view and boosterism. There is also quite a bit of unnecessary detail and lists that need to be addressed. The references all need to be placed in the proper citation template instead of being bare links. Please do not remove the tag without discussion first. The purpose of the tag is to help the article improve, so premature removal won't solve anything. --JonRidinger (talk) 04:54, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

I was just trying to figure out where the wording issues come into play. I was comparing the page to Tulsa, OK, and it reads very similar. After you removed the lists you mentioned, I don't see the need for cleanup based on the use of the template provided by USCITY. Details provided follow their recommendations. Additional content provides background on what each mentioned item is or does. Can you provide any specific examples so that I will know what to edit? Honestly, as it is aside from citation editing, I'm just really confused about what you're referring to. Fletcherspears (talk) 20:47, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd support moving it if the citations were cleaned up. Each one needs to be placed in an appropriate citation template instead of just being a website address inside the brackets.  Duplicate sources need to be combined.  There are citation templates for books, journals, newspapers/magazines, websites, and more.  Each citation needs the title and if it is online, an access date and url.  Publishing dates and authors need to be included wherever possible.  If you need help, let me know.
 * Other items that need to be addressed but don't necessarily need the cleanup tag are as follows:


 * The education section needs to be turned into prose instead of just a list of schools. That is on WP:USCITY.  It's not an overly long section, but tells us very little about education in Stillwater
 * Many of the sections, Culture for instance, have multiple paragraphs that are one sentence long. A paragraph generally needs to be 3 sentences at least, so combine sentences or trim out ones that aren't needed.
 * There is quite a bit of data that is more or less promotional or just unneeded instead of encyclopedic. For instance, listing the services offered at the local hospital and the specs of the local golf courses really isn't encyclopedic.  Most of those sections need trimmed down or eliminated.
 * The Local shopping section isn't needed. There is nothing there that is different about Stillwater than any other town.  Again...look at the info, is it vital to the understanding of the subject or is it there to make the subject look better?
 * The Awards section can be integrated into other sections of the article, particularly history. As it stands now it's more of a trivia section than anything (see WP:TRIVIA).
 * Watch out for external links that are in the article itself. Those should be removed.  Also watch out for weasel words and phrases like "is known for".  While a local may perceive a town is "known for" something, that does not mean it's known outside the local vicinity.  Every phrase like that needs a valid reference.  For "is known for" or "well-known" statements, the source needs to be from outside the city.
 * Are there any notable people who are from Stillwater that aren't OSU alumni? I have a hard time believing the city itself has not produced anyone notable except those from OSU.  And I'm talking about people who are from Stillwater (born/raised/lived there) and not just people who attended OSU which happens to be in Stillwater.  Some very notable OSU alums should be listed, but shouldn't be the dominating part of that section.
 * While the Tulsa article is a good place to look for ideas, there are two cautions. 1, Tulsa is a much larger city, so the article is going to have sections and information that won't be appropriate or possible in this article.  2, that article was made a Featured Article in 2007 and standards have evolved and become more stringent since then.  It's still an excellent article, but should not be taken as "THE" example of what it must look like.  As far as "reading the same", the Tulsa article definitely reads as a much more developed article both in content and style.  This is a result of many editors looking it over and knowing what's important and how to word it.  Word and sentence variety and flow are big differences between the two.  --JonRidinger (talk) 04:57, 4 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Citations have been edited. As to your other concerns, looking at the examples pages provided by Wikipedia and other similarly-sized cities, I feel that the majority of information included is acceptable. The tag was previously removed because the complaints given at the time those tags were made had been addressed - material which was not cited had been replaced with material that was cited, although the format was incorrect. Now, all material is cited according to the Wiki template. Content has been edited and is addressed as suggested by USCITY. Can the tag now be removed? Fletcherspears (talk) 20:08, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
 * You did notice I removed the tag yesterday, right? There are still some content issues (as outlined above), but those are much finer points that will be addressed as the article continues to develop and mature and are not a part of a "cleanup".  The basic structure is there and the citations have appropriate data with them like dates and titles.  Do look into getting more specific citations, like for the one mentioned below from the museum.  I got more specific citations for the government section that went straight to maps and representative websites rather than a "put your address here to find your representative" site. --JonRidinger (talk) 20:38, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Citation question
Where in the link from the Sheerar Museum does it reference the information cited in this article about how Stillwater was chosen as the site of OSU? All I could find on the page was a passing reference to a permanent exhibit called "How Stillwater Won the College". I'm sure it's referenced at the museum itself, but the current citation does not help the reader to know what the exhibit itself says and if what the article says is true. Is there a published history (online or not) that could be referenced? --JonRidinger (talk) 19:26, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

The reference is to the museum itself, which is where the information is. Do you know of a better way to reference it than to the website? Fletcherspears (talk) 20:01, 4 January 2011 (UTC)


 * When you reference a website it is because the website is where the information is. Providing a link to the museum page means the info is on the webpage.  Museums get their information from somewhere for their exhibits, so find out where so you can reference it here.  For this, I would see if the museum has a book you can reference or a history website that has the info.  I would bet OSU has some of that info on its website somewhere. --JonRidinger (talk) 20:06, 4 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Apologies for the delay. The history section has now been rewritten according to the book reference cited. One less thing to worry about! :) Fletcherspears (talk) 21:06, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Much better source. I put a "citation needed" tag on the quote from Washington Irving.  Whenever you have a direct quote from a book, it should immediately be followed by a reference.  I'm guessing it comes from the Newsom book, which is referenced in the next paragraph.  If so, just use the citation for that paragraph as well.  Each paragraph should have at least one citation.  I also changed the citation format.  Rather than use "ref name" with the page number, I made each a sepate citation that just uses the "last name, p. XX" format.  This helps keep the same format in the article; it's similar to using "ibid". --JonRidinger (talk) 01:25, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Industrial History, dates
"...National Standard plant in 1988, World Color Press in 1974..."

I haven't found any verification yet, but memory indicates that National Standard has been in Stillwater much longer than Oberlin/Quebecor/World Color Press. Perhaps those two dates are swapped in the article?

RatOmeter (talk) 18:29, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

I have a paycheck stub from National Standard from 1981. It existed before that time although I don't know an exact date. I would agree that the dates above might be swapped. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.58.0.204 (talk) 20:18, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Article classification
The article appears to have matured dramatically and changes noted above have been addressed. It should be rated as Class C, at least. I have made this change. Bruin2 (talk) 17:05, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Contradiction in government type
The preamble section says that the city government is a council-mayor system, but the Government section says that it is a council-city manager system. KJBurns (talk) 02:55, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

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External links modified
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