Talk:Stirling Moss/Archive 1

Donington
I saw Stirling Moss win his class in a Historic race at Donington a few years ago, in a C-Type Jaguar. He was definitely racing it, too, not merely demonstrating! Wonderful to see. Loganberry 14:00, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Tour de France
I met him once in Cannes, he raced the historical Tour de France with a Porsche (I think he teamed with Jurgen Barth - another legend, in another way). Most people didn't even know who he was... A gentleman. Ericd 14:51, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

UK / Ferrari
"kick-starting the British domination of single-seater racing design and engineering that continues to this day." Hmmmm... have you heard of the come-back of Ferrari ? Ericd 19:42, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Eh? Have you not heard of any other single-seater racing series' other than F1?! Have you actually seen Ferrari this year, being trounced by Renault (really a British operation with 90% British engineering team in Oxford) and McLaren (British chassis powered by a British Illmor engine badged Mercedes)?!?! 62.252.0.7 22:08, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Obviously you didn't heard of F3, Champcar or Indycar... I'm very bad at English but I think there's some difference between continuing and resuming... And do you remenmber the perfomance of Benetton under British management ? Ericd 22:43, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Nothing you are saying here renders the point about British engineering wrong. No-one has claimed that only British engineering has been successful for 50 years.  You cannot provide a single example of poor performance over two years to try and prove a more general point over several decades is wrong.  And yes I have heard of those single-seater series, it was my point exactly.  Not sure what point you were attempting to make though.  PS Ferrari have a not-very-publicised engineering and design facility in England, run by British engineers. 62.252.0.6 23:03, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Distance
The Italian term 'Mille Miglia' means a thousand miles in English. I don't understand why the reference to the distance has been changed to the metric system of [1,500] kilometres. Anyway, isn't a thousand miles actually 1,609 km and a thousand 'Roman' miles 1,479? Grateful (and curious) for an explanation. 62.252.0.6 23:03, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I'made a comment when I made the change because the name refer to the Roman mile not to the US mile the difference. Many languages make the difference languages for instance the French name of the race is "mille milles" and not "mille miles". After some seach on the web I think than the Italian use "miles" for US miles instead of "miglia". Thus I think its correct information to refer to the roman mile. Ericd 20:22, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

BTW most sources give 1500 km for the Mille Miglia, and the race was created in 1927 when Mussolini was ruling Italia if you know something about this era references to the greatness of ancient rome were at that time by far mor popular than refenrences to the Anglo-American culture. Ericd 20:36, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

I added "(1,000 mile)" after the distance but then removed it after reading this discussion. However, I think it would be good to have the following:"...the 1955 Mille Miglia ('Thousand Miles'), the Italian 1597 km open-road endurance race..." It's important to recognize that not everyone reading this article will have the cultural background to recognize the meaning of the name in Italian, and it is a point of interest. Unless someone has a solid objection, I'll make that change. --Tedd 01:52, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Mother
I'd add Stirling's mother was a rally driver of some skill, if I could recall her name; the traffic cop story I've heard Moss tell in an interview. Also, can somebody clarify what "deceptively smooth" is? Jackie Stewart always says a driver should be smooth, & the best ones are; so, what's deceptive? How quick he is? Or how damn easy he makes it look? (So did Jackie. So does Michael.) Trekphiler 13:40, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Pat Moss was a good rally driver but she was his sister. Ericd 09:04, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Stirling's mother Aileen was also a successful rally driver. - Ian Dalziel 06:14, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Smooth

 * "can somebody clarify what 'deceptively smooth' is?"
 * Subjectively, a less smooth driver often appears faster to the naked eye than a smooth driver. For example, I watched Jacky Ickx qualify for an endurance race and noticed that, subjectively, he looked slow compared to some of the other drivers.  As a racing driver myself I knew, objectively, that he was fast and smooth and, sure enough, he got the pole.  But I was impressed by how his smoothness gave the impression of less speed than other drivers.  That's what is meant by deceptively smooth.  --Tedd 16:56, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Moss the record breaker
There should be at least a paragraph about Stirling's relationship with MG and the EX181. He did, after all, break five international class F records at Utah in one afternoon. Contact me if you want more details. --Timetrial 00:53, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Greatest never to win Championship?
I think that to say he is regarded as the greatest driver never to win the Drivers' Championship is POV. It implies that this is the belief of everyone in the sport. Also, the link provided to back this claim up is out of date and anything but objective.

May I suggest "Regarded by some", as well as replacing the Hall of Fame link previously mentioned? Paddyman1989 15:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't object to "regarded by some" or even "often called", but this is one (possibly the only?) "greatest" tag which deserves to stay in some form - the expession really is very widely used about Moss. -- Ian Dalziel 15:52, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that it should stay in some form, however, in its current form it suggests that this is a verifiable fact. I appreciate your input - thanks! -- Paddyman1989 21:54, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

It's POV and should be gone Ernham 03:56, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It's some people's point of view, obviously. However, there is no POV in recording that the comment is often made - that is a verifiable fact. As Paddyman1989 says, what has to be avoided is stating the point of view itself as fact. -- Ian Dalziel 12:50, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Stirling Moss and Denis Jenkinson photo
I think this is going to have to go, sadly. It's a user-created image, and the Image use policy says quite clearly that such pictures "may not be watermarked [or] have any credits in the image itself". I've left a note on the uploader's Talk page asking if he has a non-credited version we could use, but otherwise... since it's a policy and not merely a guideline, we'll have to abide by it and remove the photo from the article. Loganberry (Talk) 16:41, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Regrettably the uploader has not answered my query, and so I've removed the photo. A real shame, but given WP's Image use policy as stated above, there is no alternative. Loganberry (Talk) 01:59, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

MBE?
Need to check which Order his knighthood is. It is probable that he is a Knight Bachelor of the Order of the British Empire in which case he'll be KBE: you can't be KBE and MBE: the former is a higher award in the same Order, so any original MBE (or OBE, CBE) is 'upgraded', if you like! 195.92.40.49 10:25, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


 * stirlingmoss.com describes him as "Sir Stirling Moss OBE". -- Ian Dalziel 12:47, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I've changed the article to reflect the higher honour (as found at the official website), but we still need to check as per my first post above. 195.92.40.49 11:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

License
I heard a story that Stirling Moss has never held a normal road driver's licence. Is this true or is it just an urban myth?
 * This page claims that Moss' road driver's licence was suspended for a year in 1960. Which would suggest that he had one. DH85868993 06:16, 1 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks mate. Maybe the fact he was suspended for a time served as the basis for it?  Anyway, it is a good story!  210.50.60.85


 * He had his road licence suspended twice, IIRC. Once in the early 50s and again in 1960 for the heinous crime of changing lanes in the Mersey Tunnel! Mr Larrington (talk) 13:59, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Does this make any sense?
"Moss's first Formula One win was in 1955 at his home race, the British Grand Prix at Aintree, driving the superb Mercedes-Benz W196 Monoposto for a convincing German 1-2-3-4 win, with Karl Kling and Piero Taruffi in the international driver line-up. It was the only race where he finished in front of Juan Manuel Fangio, his teammate, friend, mentor and arch rival at Mercedes."

"In 1957 Moss won on the longest circuit to ever hold a Grand Prix, the daunting 25 kilometre Pescara Circuit, again demonstrating his skills at high speed, long distance driving. He beat Fangio, who started on pole, by a little over 3 minutes over the course of a gruelling 3 hour race." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.61.16.14 (talk) 22:13, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The English could perhaps do with tidying up a bit, but otherwise it looks okay. Why do you ask? Loganberry (Talk) 23:46, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Jewish?
Any evidence for Moss being Jewish, as per the category? Or is this another one of those dubious claims? Bretonbanquet (talk) 08:28, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Moss' father was of Jewish stock - (and, by extension, Robert Edwards' biography of him)


 * Moss's mother would need to be Jewish for it to pass down to him. Sue De Nimes (talk) 08:36, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Mercedes SLR Stirling Moss
the mercedes slr Stirling Moss production is terminated.( yosef martin) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.249.225.142 (talk) 14:02, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

"Having won the Monaco Grand Prix and finished second in the Monte Carlo Rally, Moss is the most successful driver to have competed in both events."
Louis Chiron in 1931 won the Monaco Grand Prix, and in 1954 won the Monte Carlo Rally. Does this not make him the most successful driver to have competed in both events? I think that should be changed but as a newbie, I do not want to do it myself. 88.106.25.113 (talk) 21:38, 5 June 2010 (UTC)effjuan
 * You're right. I've removed the offending text. DH85868993 (talk) 01:48, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

After his racing career
This section starts by saying he has been a recent critic of Schumacher. How about the decades after his last F1 race? It is my understanding he used to present F1 television coverage - I certainly remember him interviewing James Hunt post-race in the 1970s.--Pontificalibus (talk) 12:09, 21 July 2011 (UTC)


 * He's actually criticised a lot of drivers since jacking it in, including Mansell and (Damon) Hill. Could do with something noting that he's done a lot of work as a 'colour' commentator/pundit for many broadcasters (I'm fairly sure I've seen him do work for British, American and Australian networks) with a reputation for being outspoken. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.79.102.59 (talk) 22:53, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

re: "In addition, he finished second in the 1952 Monte Carlo Rally driving a Sunbeam-Talbot 90 with co-driver John Cooper. "
The statement "In addition, he finished second in the 1952 Monte Carlo Rally driving a Sunbeam-Talbot 90 with co-driver John Cooper. Cooper ran Moss in Formula One later in his career." is in error and the link to "John Cooper" points to the wrong person.

According to Sir Stirling's own book "All My Races", page 88, the John Cooper he co-drove the Monte Carlo Rally with in 1952 was the editor of Autocar, not the John Cooper of the Cooper Car company. Moss makes that quite clear in the text and the caption of the photo on that page showing them with the car says "John 'Autocar' Cooper" as well. Additionally, there was a third co-driver, Desmond Scannell. Bill321 (talk) 03:10, 10 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure if there is enough source material to create a viable article on John Cooper (editor), but there is a useful link here. . Mighty Antar (talk) 09:21, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

1955 British GP
" It is sometimes debated whether Fangio, one of the all-time great gentlemen of sport, yielded the lead at the last corner to let Moss win in front of his home crowd."

Presumably only by morons, though; Moss led from something like lap 26 so - regardless of whether the win was gifted or not - Fangio didn't "yield the lead at the last corner". The key is Fangio was a gentleman rather than a bastard like Senna; he simply pushed Moss the whole way instead of just moving over at the very last moment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.79.110.171 (talk) 08:31, 29 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I've adjusted the wording to "It is sometimes debated whether Fangio, one of the all-time great gentlemen of sport, allowed Moss to win in front of his home crowd." (without the italics, of course). DH85868993 (talk) 08:17, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Mille Miglia
I removed another editor's personal opinion that the MM was the automotive equivalent of the Tour de France, and the opinion was immediately reinserted without explanation. It is anyway a patently nonsensical example of WP:OR. The MM was a thousand miles of continuous driving with cars starting one at a time. The TdF is about twice that distance, the bicycles starts simultaneously, the race takes place over several days, and it includes individual time trials and team time trials etc. I have removed this content again. Do not reinsert unless cited to a WP:RS.

Similarly I removed the editor's personal (and erroneous) opinion that Rome was the Mille Miglia's halfway point. The opinion was immediately reinserted. I have removed it again. According to Jenkinson's own account the southbound Brescia-Rome distance in 1955 was 874 kilometres; northbound Rome-Brescia was 1403 kilometres. Do not reinsert the erroneous content.

I revised the other editor's "About 90 miles in driving towards Padua at 175 mph, Moss saw in his mirror that Castellotti was closing fast" to read "After about 90 miles, as Moss approached Padua at 175 mph he saw in his mirror that Castellotti was closing fast." It's obvious that the 90 miles were driven and not walked, bicycled or flown etc. Yet this was also reverted. I have reverted to the more fluent version which eliminates the redundant and poorly constructed "in driving" part. Writegeist (talk) 18:03, 22 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Surely the automotive equivalent of the Tour de France was the Tour de France Automobile?Mr Larrington (talk) 15:21, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Copyright violations
I have deleted a vast quantity of content revision by  (which jettisoned the great majority of the pre-existing text) because his/her text introduced what appeared to be equally massive copyright violations throughout (copied verbatim, or as near as dammit verbatim, from cited sources). I have reverted to the last non-copyvio version of the article. My edsum has asked that the copyvio content not be reinserted. Noting: WP:COPYVIO is "a Wikipedia policy with legal considerations" and "Contributors should take steps to remove any copyright violations that they find." I have left untouched the tabulated information which I think LordAnoni also contributed.

Also lost in my revert are some photographs added by the user, which may or may not have been additional copyvios—I haven't checked their licensing info. LordAnon has been warned about copyvio before. Writegeist (talk) 08:02, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Repeated copyright violations by the same user
now persists in copypasting whole swathes of content that violate copyright, despite numerous warnings including yesterday's, and despite yesterday's restoration of the article to its previous, non-violative state. It's time this received admin attention. Writegeist (talk) 17:12, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you for restoring the non-copyvio version. Writegeist (talk) 20:44, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

1962 crash
"In 1962, he crashed his Lotus heavily during the Glover Trophy at Goodwood held on Monday 15 April. "

Really? April 15 1962 was a Sunday. The Glover Trophy race of 1962 was held on Easter Monday, which was 23rd April. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.159.113.176 (talk) 16:45, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Thanks for pointing out the error. DH85868993 (talk) 09:43, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Semi-protected edit request on 12 April 2020
In 2013 Stirling triggered a controversy when he was asked why only five women have raced in grands prix and only one has scored a point. Moss responded "I think they have the strength, but I don't know if they've got the mental aptitude to race hard, wheel-to-wheel."

Jdubes (talk) 14:23, 12 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure that rises to anything above the level of trivia. It certainly isn't very encyclopaedic. - SchroCat (talk) 14:24, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 April 2020
Died (12 april 2020) Lllaurens (talk) 14:31, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

As the article has made clear for several hours. - SchroCat (talk) 14:32, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 April 2020
He’s dead. All U.K. news websites will confirm he has passed away. 92.18.178.40 (talk) 15:53, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
 * So does the article. Have you tried reading it? Favonian (talk) 15:55, 12 April 2020 (UTC)