Talk:Stonewall riots

Double use of lead image
Hello @CorbieVreccan, is it alright if you could link me the exact section you guys made consensus on using the June 28 photograph twice? I now know there is such and respect that, this request is just to resolve remaining skepticism of mine. It's also a little difficult going through 14 pages of archives. Carlinal (talk) 06:28, 5 September 2023 (UTC)


 * We just never brought up deleting the use in the body. I don't see what the problem is with having it in twice, given its importance, and the fact that we go into further detail about the image in that section. - CorbieVreccan  ☊ ☼ 17:19, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Alright, thank you for the reply! Carlinal (talk) 17:33, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Incorrectly Cited Page
The 138th citation cites the incorrect page number. 138a should be page 35 and 138b should be page 36. I know exact page numbers will differ depending on the particular book copy used, but this is quite a big difference from the page 19 cited so I figured that likely wasn't the issue. Here is the archive.org link to the book for verification: https://archive.org/details/gaymilitants00tealrich/page/34/mode/2up. 47.184.75.50 (talk) 23:55, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Owner photo?
Shall we have a photo of owner Larry Boxx where his name is now mentioned in the article? SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:24, 14 March 2024 (UTC)


 * I just removed information about Larry Boxx. No reliable source mentions him and in fact those sources state clearly the Stonewall was owned by the Geneovese crime family.
 * Just FYI I wrote this article in 2009 or whenever. I have most of the sources still. Moni3 (talk) 16:37, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Why is the article in GTN Global Travel Industry News May 28, 2013 by Linda Hohnholz not to be considered a reliable source? I knew Mr. Boxx whwn he indeed did manage the Stonewall. There is also this and this and this and this and this and this --SergeWoodzing (talk) 07:03, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Because more comprehensive sources, books by historians, have clearly covered the ownership of the Stonewall Inn. Boxx could not have been the owner. The sources clearly state the Mafia owned the bar. Boxx doesn't even appear in the index of David Carter's book. And he appears as a footnote in Duberman's.
 * I cannot explain the discrepancy, other than maybe Stonewall is similar to Woodstock. Lots of people say they were there. Sylvia Rivera and Storme Delarverie both have said they were and weren't there. If Boxx was really a manager of the Stonewall Inn in 1969, maybe he was briefly after the riots, I don't know.
 * Carter gives some detail about the ownership and management, even giving the Mafia nicknames (Matty the Horse, Fat Tony no kidding) and Fat Tony's right-hand man, which I can assume would be the equivalent to a manager, was a guy named Chuck Shaheen according to Carter. Shaheen was a bartender that moved up into a position where he oversaw collecting money, and transferring it to Fat Tony & Co. Carter also discusses the staff at the Stonewall, including waiters he interviewed, and a description of the bathroom attendant. Again, Boxx is never mentioned.
 * For Wikipedia, works by historians are favored over personal interviews. Moni3 (talk) 18:22, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
 * OK, so all 7 of those references are to be dismissed as garbage/gossip/hoaxes, including interviews with people who knew him and his position at the time? Is it also to be dismissed that he managed the Miami Beach Stonewall where he was photographed at least three times? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:40, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, yes. The article cannot say both things: go into great detail about the Mafia owning all the gay bars and especially the Stonewall, and then mention Larry Boxx as the owner. Alternatives include removing all information about the Mafia from historians and replacing it with information about Larry Boxx, who says he was the owner despite historians saying otherwise. Or keeping in all this information about the Mafia and then as an aside, "but Larry Boxx claims he was the owner" which makes zero sense.
 * You really should read Carter's and Duberman's books.
 * Whatever Boxx did in Miami Beach isn't relevant to this article. Moni3 (talk) 14:30, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The refs I provided are not all Boxx himself claiming something. You really should look at them. Boxx managed both venues, working for the mafia fronting as the "onwer". I was there & not the only eye-witness. Yes, aids took many of us, but we are not all dead yet. Nor senile, not liars. Box had the same Italian-American cashier in MB as in Manhattan. And the same pistol-packing body guard. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 08:55, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I looked at your sources. Let's discuss:
 * Scottfoster.org, written by Larry Boxx. Who gets the date incorrect on the Snake Pit raid, which occurred after the Stonewall riots. Self-published, not fact checked, fails as a reliable source.
 * aboutscottfoster.wordpress.com, Foster says Boxx owned the Stonewall but no details about his ownership, and links back to the first source. Self-published, not fact checked, fails as a reliable source.
 * vintagenews.com, Boxx's name is in a photo caption, no details of his ownership and the article also claims the Mafia owned the Stonewall, so which is it? Its own contradictions make it fail as a reliable source.
 * sun-sentinel.com June 18, 2004 I saw these yesterday and no can no longer access them without payment, but they mention Boxx as the marshal of the Gay Pride parade in a South Florida town, saying he was the owner. Reliable source for stating who's going to be the parade grand marshal, nothing else.
 * sun-sentinel.com June 21, 2004 See above
 * miamiherald.com June 24, 1989 Boxx mentioned as Stonewall manager among Pride festivities, South Florida newspapers that are reporting on Gay Pride festivities without corroborating Boxx's claims. Not investigative journalism pieces, just brief articles about what's to come for Gay Pride.
 * In the face of two historians who have covered the Stonewall Inn, none of these sources measure up.
 * You're admitting that you haven't read and are apparently refusing to read the best sources for the topic, in favor of one person's account that is inaccurate. To me that means you don't care about the facts of the article. You are at a distinct disadvantage in this discussion and it indicates you have an agenda, whatever it is. Get up to speed by reading the best sources for the article. They're just books. It's just reading. It won't hurt you. Moni3 (talk) 14:08, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The dismissal of several of those sources is arbitrary at best, with explanations which exude bias. So who has the agenda? Perhaps someone who says the article was written by h?
 * I repeat: I was there. I saw Larry Boxx on duty in both places. Many of us did. I am not senile. I am not a liar. My only agemda here is the truth. That's why I provided all those sources.
 * Anyone else?--SergeWoodzing (talk) 09:22, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * If you won't read the best sources, your agenda is not the truth. Moni3 (talk) 14:26, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I believe that you are acting in good faith, and you appear to have a legitimate dispute. However, the fact remains that the sources you've given do not provide a substantial basis for your claims. Several of the sources are self-published; those that are not either list Boxx as a "manager" or a "grand marshal" – never an owner. You will need to provide better evidence. Doughbo (talk) 16:20, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I believe that you are acting in good faith, and you appear to have a legitimate dispute. However, the fact remains that the sources you've given do not provide a substantial basis for your claims. Several of the sources are self-published; those that are not either list Boxx as a "manager" or a "grand marshal" – never an owner. You will need to provide better evidence. Doughbo (talk) 16:20, 27 May 2024 (UTC)