Talk:Stonyhurst College/Archive 1

VCs
Seven VCs is quite a record. If any of you old boys have their names there is an ongoing project to do biographies for all VCs, so if you listed their names in this article and made them into links they will hopefully one day be filled in with a bit of information. &mdash; Trilobite (Talk) 01:45, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

JRR Tolkien
Though he did spend a lot of time at Stonyhurst (I believe his son was at the seminary at St Marys), I don't believe he was ever enrolled there. I could be wrong however.

(I think he taught there but that doesn't make him an alumnus - Indomitable)

JRR Tolkien visited the College on numerous occasions because his son was training at the jesuit seminary (Now St Mary's Hall). His connection with Stonyhurst is only because he wrote Lord of the rings there. (He wrote it in the lodge located at the top of the hill to the left of lions.)

He also wrote part of it in a classroom on the upper gallery. I seem to recall that he taught Classics at the school briefly as well. 163.1.126.121 (talk) 22:06, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup requested
I have requested a cleanup for the following reasons: "Pooly-written, uninformative, POV. The picture's nice, but is due to be deleted as it is not licensed for free use" Hopefully someone reading this and with knowledge of the school will be able to assist.DavidFarmbrough 13:00, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Someone has kindly tried to have a go at this but has unfortunately incorrectly implemented a university template, and also lifted the history of the school from the school web site, which is a clear Copyright infringement. DavidFarmbrough 09:54, 2 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Many thanks for your interest in the article. I started it over a year ago, and had hoped we would get help from people with more time than I have. It has been very much just a placeholder article (and I don't know who added the picture). Dunstan 11:54, 2 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Have looked into schools with better entries. The one for Harrow seems quite good, and the one for Eton has a tidier format for Alumni. But the main issue is the need to find someone with good historical information which is not from a copyright source. Dunstan 22:02, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

whilst cleaning up, confirm the status of the word "beati"... yes, i can figure out what it means, but it's not in dictionary.com. googling it seems to indicate that it is Italian and/or Latin. So, italicize it?

"Beati" is the official term. It is a Latin word but is used in English. Dictionary.com omits a number of valid, but lesser used words (particulary non-American words). I have Italicised it to show that it is Latin. Beati is used on the College website. Annoyingly, someone keeps altering this to the much clumsier "recognised by the Church as blessed" - I don't see the point in changing it to this when Beati is correct and neater. 163.1.126.121 (talk) 22:05, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Request for a new picture
As the currently used picture does not meet the necessary copyright requirements for use in the wikipedia, it would be helpful, if someone close-by could make a new one and release it under the GFDL. TIA --82.135.87.236 11:24, 3 December 2005 (UTC) (h-stt in de-Wikipedia)


 * Can I renew this request. I never venture that far north these days, but if there is someone near to t'college who could take and publish some photographs, please leave me a note on my user talk page. --Dunstan 09:12, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I have given my pic a CC attribution license which should cover it for use on here for the forseeable but I can also see the need for a slightly newer pic, even if the place hasn't changed much! --Nico 10:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Might the association office be able to help?

George Walker
Another one for the alumni: George Walker, great-grandfather of the current President Bush (see this reference. I haven't put him on the list because there are a lot of George Walkers on Wikipedia and I'm not sure how best to disambiguate the name. He was the father of George Herbert Walker anyway. Tearlach 18:15, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

The Grand father of George W Bush was in fact Herbert Walker. Herbert Walker was a keen golfer and subsequently founded the Walker Cup (something that the Bush family are very proud of). He was at the College for 2 years at the end of the 20th century (about the same time that the Golf course was opened -although there is no evidence he played on it). By all accounts his time at the college wasn't a happy one. When he returned to the United States he ditched his Catholicism and was a die hard protestant. His relationship to George W and his father are of secondary importance, although this too is interesting. 29 March 2006

Grandest families
What exactly is meant by "some of the grandest Catholic families"? Richest? Longest-established? Tearlach 19:38, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Alumni
I wonder if the list of alumni should be split into a separate article, as it is currently a bit of a shopping list. Dunstan 21:54, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Changes to Alumni by 62.188.156.236 reverted
I've reverted the changes to the list of alumni made by a user from 62.188.156.236

A couple of reasons for this: firstly there are alumni who I've never heard of - not that I doubt the veracity, but I'd like to see sources cited for these; secondly there are alumni from St Omer -- these I believe should be separated out.

I also still think we need to avoid the alumni section of the main college article becoming a lengthy list. We should be very proud of our alumni, but I still think the idea of highlighting a very few on hte college page and then going into depth on a separate page gives the whole thing better balance.

I appreciate the effort put in by the user at 62.188.156.236, but I think we need to rethink how alumni are presented.

Finally, could I ask that you create a user account for yourself - it makes discussion much more personal.

--Dunstan 10:13, 28 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Afternoon Dunston,


 * First of all sorry about just updating it all like that, I didn't realise that I had to sign up etc. Please accept my apologies.


 * The alumni list I put up is taken from T E Muir's History of Stonyhurst College (published in 1993). They have also been cross-referenced with the 1893 book on Stonyhurst College.


 * The alumni list is by no means comprehensive but I feel it is a marked improvement on what was originally there. I accept that not all old boys are household names (that's why I put a brief explanation down as to who these people are) but I still believe they are worth putting down, and as it stood it was a better list.


 * Charles Carol of Carrolton, for example, signed the US declaration of Independence (he was also incidentally the last founding father to die). Ambrose Rookwood was quite a rebel too. He was hanged drawn and quartered for his involvement in the gun powder plot (interestingly his three brothers were the first pupils to arrive at Stonyhurst having taken the long journey from the continent with Father Plowden.)


 * I think it might be better to copy the examples of other minor public schools - not Eton or Harrow. After all their Alumni lists are very long and impressive.


 * I'm not sure as to why you want to separate St Omers boys from Stonyhurst boys, as it is the same school and for an outside reader it gives the impression that they were different schools. The only difference is location. The pupils and Jesuits of 1794 were (virtually) the same pupils as those of Leige in 1793.


 * The website is very good start so well done. I changed a couple of mistakes, however, for example the college was founded in 1593 not 1592.


 * Can I just reiterate that everythinkg above is designed as a helpful suggestion. Nothing more. Keep up the good work.


 * Many thanks for the comments. I don't have a copy of Tom's excellent book (which he tells me is currently being updated), so your development of the list of alumni is helpful. But personally I don't think the main school article is helped by having more than half the content made up of a list of alumni - hence my suggestion that they be included in a separate but linked article. The link to this article could probably be better highlighted - I'll look at that shortly.


 * My thoughts about the St Omers alumni was simply based around the fact that there is a separate article for that college: but if the school is considered a continuous body (which it is) then they too are Old Stonyhurst. Perhaps we should include them, but with their own subsection.


 * If you have a copy of Tom's tome, some expansion of the history section would be a good idea. It doesn't want to be an essay, but perhaps 2-3 paragraphs would be suitable. The stuff I wrote was mostly dredged from online sources, so something better researched would be welcome. If you need any help or hints on correct attribution then drop a note on my user talk page.


 * Finally, if you end any comment you leave on a talk page with two dashes and four tildes (twiddles) then Wikipedia will expand it to be a name and date signature. Many thanks for your interest and help --Dunstan 09:09, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Just a small point Gerard Manley Hopkins was educated at Highgate school not the College.

According to the College Handbook (1963), an alternative tradition dates the school's founding to 1592, though 1593 has been accepted as the standard date by the school. I think the current division on the O.S. list is appropriate to show who was where. Stonyhurst may be successor to St Omers, but they are not the same place - why not show more precision as long as it is carefully worded? 163.1.126.121 (talk) 22:02, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Quand/quant je puis
I remember Colonel Humphries telling us that, strictly, the motto was "Quand je puis", and that "Quant je puis" was a misquotation of it. OTOH, quant je puis is so widely used as to have supplanted it.

Views anyone?

Surely that was a joke? 'Quand je puis' would mean 'When I can' which sounds quite sarcastic to me (as if "when I can [be bothered]"). That would not make a very appropriate school motto! 163.1.126.121 (talk) 21:57, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed - it sounds like the Colonel was making a joke. The motto of the Shireburn family was Quant Je Puis. If you are in any doubt, take a look at the stone carving of the family emblem, complete with motto, above the fireplace in the Top Refectory. The motto is also engraved on the minstrel's gallery in the same room with the following: "Quant Je Puis. Hugo Sherburn armig. me fieri fecit. Anno Domini 1523. Et sicut fuit sic fiat." 86.156.196.236 (talk) 22:50, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Religious
I added a few extra bits, and tidied up the History bit/Modern bit. User:Matt-rex 16:12, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Libraries/Archives/Present Day
Me again! I wanted to add some important information on the archives and libraries held by the school - as these are of great interest. I also added "Present Day" taken from "History", as felt this makes more sense and can be added to, as such these were split into times. I have also added much more information on the development of the school..Matt 14:57, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Added more to the history and other bits and pieces. Will be developing this over time. --Matt - London 14:33, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Ditto, added to history. Added two photos too, to add some colour.Matt - London 15:03, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I have added to this section, plus some related material on the museums and collections. I thought it appropriate to place this below the academic section. A photograph of the new More Library would be good if anyone has one, or even the study place, to show the 3 transitions of the room. Any pictures of the Bay/Square/Arundell libraries or the Museum? 163.1.126.121 (talk) 21:56, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Sex Scandal?
I was reading an article on Chris Morris - and apparently there was a sex scandal at the school.

''But right in the middle of the "Brass Eye" storm came a new spin on the story, one that caught everybody off guard. As a child, Morris had attended a minor English public school which was the center of a child sex abuse scandal that saw the headmaster jailed and several senior staff fired.

Two years ago Morris was asked if he remembered any abuse while there. He replied, "I remember all sorts of degradation going on with other boys and teachers."

But to the chagrin of some of his fellow students who testified, Morris refused to go to court. It suggests some things are just too daunting even for Chris Morris.''

Is this true? Presumably it means Stonyhurst, and if so, why is this not mentioned in the article? Sorry if this is a major misunderstanding. Cardboardboxman 10:56, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi, Cardboardboxman.


 * Bit of controversial one this, but I believe Chris Morris withdrew that statement and was just causing a "scene" - which is his job. The real point is whether this controversial "sex scandal" should be included. The answer, should be a resounding no. It was all proved superfluous, and all those people brought forward, eventually had the cases thrown out by very sensible judges. I don't think this "bad chapter", where the schools name was dragged through the mud, on disproved evidence needs to be added to Wikipedia. People were accused, but it was disproved, and thus was only a small chapter in a great history of a great school. Matt - London 16:50, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

There was an investigation by the Lancashire Police in the 90s which attempted to assemble the evidence needed to prosecute various figures connected to the school, including a former headmaster of St John's Beaumont (why is there no section for this prep school?). It came to a grinding halt when the judge of one of the trials declared that too much time had passed for the accused to be able to put up a reasonable defence, which would make any conviction unsafe. By doing this, he created a de facto statute of limitations on child abuse of around 15 to 20 years. Since this is approximately the length of time it takes for a victim to overcome their abuse sufficiently to step forward and testify, it is a charter for child abusers.
 * Couple of sources on what was called Operation Whiting - http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200102/cmselect/cmhaff/836/2052102.htm parliamentary committee investigation into the conduct of the investigation, with evidence given by Rory O'Brien. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3724/is_200203/ai_n9074603 Spectator apology for 'loose' reporting of the investigation.

The scandal got much media coverage for a long period of time (and raised some interesting questions about media prurience and anti-Catholic prejudice): it needs to be mentioned in some way in the article.

Deipnosophista 12:31, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I have referred to the scandal in the section on Aylward's headmastership, as he steered the school through at that time, and yes, it did acquire a great deal of publicity. However, every single case was thrown out of court and the one conviction quashed at appeal, so I do not think the matter need be dwelt upon any more than the mention it receives. It was but a brief phase in the school's four hundred year history - it has been through far greater tribulations! 163.1.126.121 (talk) 21:53, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

The Jesuit Ethos
Great job Dunstan.

I have added a bit to the Jesuit ethos of the school.

I have strenghtened the paragraph explaining the ties to the school and added an explanation of how the Jesuit ethos infuses life for the students.

I hope all agree that this is useful. Seems to me that for outside observers it is necessary to show how the Jesuit ethos distinguishes the school from its Benedictine cousins and how it may play out in the development of students who attend the school. The New Head strikes me as particularly competent with the ethos.

Apologies for my silly name. Came to me as I stared out of the window in search of inspiration.

The gardener.

By the way I agree that we could surely get some better photo's from people living near by or visiting. Perhaps a request on OSforums.org.uk might yield results.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by The gardener (talk • contribs) 15:00, 11 February 2007 (UTC).
 * Well done - great additions. Matt - London 14:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I've expanded the Religious Life section, and uploaded numerous photographs, though I have none of the restored Sodality Chapel. 163.1.126.120 (talk) 21:48, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

St John's Beaumont
This is the other Jesuit prep school attached to the College, and is in Old Windsor, berks. I feel it should at least get a mention.

St John's send about 4 or 5 pupils to the College each year. It is a feeder school but is not attached to the College as its prep school. The only mention of Stonyhurst on the St John's website is as one of fifteen schools which boys move on to.

163.1.126.121 (talk) 12:41, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Lancashire 'predominantly Catholic'
The claim is made that Lancashire was predominantly Catholic when Stonyhurst settled there. I do not doubt that Catholicism was important in the county, especially in the rural parts, but to make the claim 'predominantly' means that either more than half the population of the county was Catholic, or Catholicism was the biggest sect in the county. I do not doubt q.v. Evelyn Waugh that Catholicism had a strong presence in Lancashire, which may have increased during the nineteenth century, owing to immigration from Ireland, but this is irrelevant. It remains to be demonstrated that Lancashire was 'predominantly Catholic'. I suggest that the phrase is rewritten as: 'Lancashire was ideal as it had retained a strong affection for Roman Catholicism'.

Chasnor15 (talk) 10:07, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

This part of Lancashire was predominantly Catholic. That is why there are still many Catholics in the area, and many Catholic churches, especially around Preston. By the way, it's "Stonyhurst".

"it had retained a strong affection" is hardly appropriate. Counties do not have feelings so do not have affection. Lancashire was ideal because the location was predominantly Catholic - the idea is expressed in the words used, which is why they are used.

163.1.126.121 (talk) 12:45, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps the best way is to turn to a few statistics. Fortunately our ancestors took the matter of religious observance very seriously, and they have left us the 1851 religious census. Attenders at religious services were counted one Sunday and if we take the number of people in the county as being 2,030,000 or thereabouts, some 148,445 or just over 7% of the population were Roman Catholic. Perhaps Lancastrian Catholics of the mid nineteenth century were not particularly devout, but usually people who feel themselves besieged (as Roman Catholics might have been expected to feel) have great solidarity. I don't think you can make a case that Anglicans, non-conformists, the orthodox and others in Lancashire were particularly devout, so the the figure of 7% seems reasonable.

It is not predominant, a word you have failed to define.

If you go to the RC diocesan returns from the mid-C20, then the Lancastrian figure is 17% against a national figure of 10% Roman Catholic. That would fit in with immigration especially into Lancashire of Roman Catholics from Ireland. It still doesn't make the figure predominant.

If you do not like "it had retained a strong affection", which is only a very modest metaphorical construction may I suggest: "Although Lancashire had traditionally a marked Catholic following, by the mid-nineteenth century this was less than 10% of the population".

I'm sorry I have mispelled Stonyhurst, but I believe that is a common error. Chasnor15 (talk) 17:57, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

This seems to be rather a great fuss about one word which you could have just altered (though it has already been changed). Yes, that was inappropriate because the majority was not Catholic, but the idea is that the area has always had a very strong Catholic presence - this is attested in numerous sources. I'm afraid I'm not an expert on the matter though. 163.1.126.120 (talk) 21:47, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Archiving
I'm not sure I understand the instructions for archiving old discussions on a talk page, so I dare not mess around with it. If anyone does know how, please archive some of the out-of-date discussions. 163.1.126.121 (talk) 22:27, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Assessment
Surely the Stonyhurst page is now worthy of a much higher assessment? Does anyone know how to bring this about? 163.1.126.121 (talk) 22:27, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Crest
Does anyone know how to upload a crest and the circle logo (what copyright applies, etc)? 163.1.126.121 (talk) 22:44, 18 March 2008 (UTC)