Talk:Stormborn

"That's not you"
I included this curious remark because it may mean that 'Arya' is actually The Waif with a stolen identity. If it does not mean that, then it is puzzling what it might mean, since it is definitely the same direwolf. --GwydionM (talk) 09:56, 24 July 2017 (UTC)


 * The Waif wouldn't know about HotPie, or Nymeria, so how could it be her?  2001:558:6011:1:38F3:171E:261:EBEA (talk) 14:04, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Dan Weiss said in an Inside the Episode video for the episode that the line was a call back to a moment in season 1 where Arya said to her father "that's not me" after he said that he wants her to live this life of a noble lady (something like that). Nymeria is doing what exactly what Arya would do in that situation. --Tuyek (talk) 11:28, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

Actor Names in Plot Section
User edited the plot section of the article to include the actors' names, after I had deleted them in the course of bringing the section's word count below 400 per MOS:TVPLOT, which also explicitly recommends to avoid "any information that belongs in other sections, such as actors' names." Many television episode articles, especially for Game of Thrones, include actor names in plot summaries in contravention of MOS:TVPLOT. I see no reason to continue ignoring MOS:TVPLOT; I believe MOS:TVPLOT provides good guidance here, because the names of actors appearing on the show are not relevant to the plot of the episode. Actor names can and should be used throughout the article wherever they are relevant, including in the guest cast listing and in discussing any critical reactions to individual performances, but not in the plot summary. Can we get consensus on that, before I go about reverting the additions of actor names to the plot section? --DavidK93 (talk) 18:19, 24 July 2017 (UTC)


 * ✅ —   IVORK  Discuss 21:54, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

Grey Worm and Missandei
I was the original author of the statement "they [Grey Worm and Missandei] consummate their relationship." Citing WP:EUPHEMISM, changed it to "they have sex." An IP user reverted Hijiri88's change. Looking back at it, I think the intent behind Hijiri88's edit is correct, but the result of the edit is not quite what it needs to be. It's problematic to say that "they have sex," because Grey Worm is a eunuch. Grey Worm's mutilation is an obvious obstacle to their physical relationship that has been acknowledged in-universe, and the scene in the episode addresses it directly, so the Wikipedia article should just say outright what happened: "Grey Worm performs oral sex on Missandei." Hijiri88, are you amenable to that wording? --DavidK93 (talk) 12:59, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Looking at the edit history, I realized that it's probably not accurate to call myself the "original" author of this statement, because the sexual encounter was already described as "consummation" before my extensive edit; however, Hijiri88 did change this passage from the specific form I chose for it, and in principle I support their edit. I still welcome Hijiri88's further input before I edit the passage again.  --DavidK93 (talk) 23:50, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I am aware of the problem of Greyworm being a eunuch. The problem, though, is the same whether we say they "have sex" or we say they "consummate their relationship".
 * In the books, the Unsullied are explicitly stated to lack either a penis or testicles, while the show very distinctly left it ambiguous. It is my understanding (based on research by other pseudonymous viewers of Preston Jacobs' YouTube channel, mind, but pseudonymous viewers he credited in one of his videos as being apparently correct) that men who are castrated but not fully emasculated can still experience some amount of sexual desire and arousal, and this is why Unsullied in the books are explicitly stated to be fully emasculated. The word "eunuch", therefore, is problematic in itself as it implies castration but not emasculation. As is, I think viewers of the show can assume that Greyworm and other Unsullied have penises, but since the show does not state this directly (I think it was somewhere in season four that Dany and Missandei discussed the matter but didn't come to a conclusion), we are not allowed make the assumption one way or the other without a reliable source.
 * Anyway, "consummate" is what one does with a marriage. "Consummating" an informal romantic relationship is a modern, anachronistic concept that breaks immersion in the show. And in order to consummate a marriage what one normally does is have sex, which is clearly what is implied in the show. We all know Greyworm has either been castrated (more likely in the show, but never explicitly stated) or emasculated (definitely the case in the books), but "consummate" is not a technical term for castrated/emasculated sex that addresses that problem; it's just a messy euphemism.
 * Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 00:52, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
 * , I apologize if I was unclear; I meant to establish from the get-go that I approve of the change away from "consummate." I was trying to raise the question:  Is "he performs oral sex on her" preferable to "they have sex," or could there be a different, better wording?  In Wikipedia plot summaries, I think we normally use "sex" to describe what happens between partners who get naked in bed together, regardless of whether or not specific sex acts are depicted in the narrative. However, the word "sex," unqualified, is generally understood to mean vaginal intercourse.  Because there is reason to question whether or not Grey Worm is physically capable of engaging in that specific act, stating that this sexually mutilated character "had sex" with someone could confuse the reader.  And in this scene, I don't think anything was implied.  Grey Worm climbed on top of Missandei in bed; had the scene ended there, I would agree that penetrative sex was implied (though I still might have an issue over how to describe it on Wikipedia).  But Grey Worm immediately climbs down the bed and pretty explicitly commences to perform cunnilingus on Missandei, and that's where the scene ends. For now, I'm going to go with "Grey Worm performs oral sex on Missandei."  Please continue the discussion if you disagree with this wording.  --DavidK93 (talk) 14:57, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Plot section length
TedEdwards, regarding this, wordcounter.net says (minus the headings) that it's 451 words, 2,985 characters. wordcounter.io says (minus the headings) that it's 450 words. It's a small section. In what way do you think it can be shortened without sacrificing important information? It's been mentioned by editors before (including me) that we shouldn't use MOS:TVPLOT and MOS:FILMPLOT too strictly.

If you reply to me on this, I ask that you don't ping me since this page is on my watchlist. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 07:24, 8 May 2019 (UTC)