Talk:Strafgesetzbuch section 86a

Ist not 86a StGB that forbids the Z. Its 140 Nr. 2 StGB, § 138 Abs. 1 Nr. 5 StGB, § 13 VStGB that forbids the usage in certain scenarios.

https://www.lto.de/recht/hintergruende/h/ukraine-billigung-straftaten-angriffskrieg-140stgb-z-zeichen/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:20:701D:C5A9:653B:2310:EF43:D346 (talk) 10:05, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

GDR
I'm pretty sure it was applied to GDR-Symbols as well. I'll try to dig up some links.--ospalh (talk) 10:46, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Not really... I think running around with a swastika would yield jail while flying GDR flags would be considered lunatic or nostalgia. There was some issue with the blue shirts of the FDJ (that organization had been banned in the West), I do not remember much, but I think only Bavaria took offence... I do not remember whether they got pwned with 86/86a or with some other law, but really, swastika is taboo, GDR not as much --88.75.232.1 (talk) 17:22, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Imperial German flags
Are any of the Imperial flags banned in Germany? I have noticed they have been co-opted a lot by neonazis, in fact even Weimar flags have been used once or twiceBenvenuto (talk) 06:10, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Those with a swastika on it are banned of course, the old Reichskriegsflagge is not technically banned but try explaining that to officer Hans.. Some states also consider flying it in public a minor offence against "public order" (Ordnungswidrigkeit). This is from hearsay, I do not even own one. --88.75.232.1 (talk) 17:22, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I believe that German law prohibits use of the flag if it is the focal point of a display and/or will disrupt public order. See page 44 of http://www.verfassungsschutz.de/de/publikationen/pb_rechtsextremismus/broschuere_1203_re_symbole_und_zeichen/broschuere_1203_re_symbole_und_zeichen.pdf Stloup1977 (talk) 17:55, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Name
Why does this article use "§" instead of "section"? 76.66.194.220 (talk) 06:03, 19 December 2009 (UTC)


 * That is how it is shown in the German law code, in Germany 84.60.23.33 (talk) 13:59, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was page moved. Skomorokh  11:27, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Strafgesetzbuch § 86a → Strafgesetzbuch section 86a — Replaces § which is not a letter even in German, with the word it stands for, "section", as "§" is not typable normally, it would also make this section accessible by typing it into the search box. 76.66.194.220 (talk) 06:10, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Survey

 * voice your agreement with or opposition to the proposal here, with a an opinion to support your position

Discussion

 * voice other opinions here


 * I would (weakly) support a move but, for consistency with other articles, I would put the word "Section" first. I would name the article Section 86a of the German Criminal Code. "German" needs to be specified because there are several countries with a Strafgesetzbuch (there doesn't seem to be an article on the German Strafgesetzbuch. The translation at the German Ministry of Justice web site calls it the "German Criminal Code". The reason for using the '§' may be that the German word for this sign is Paragraph, which is somewhat confusing because the English paragraph is called an Absatz; the terms "§ 86a" and "Paragraph 86a" are used in German almost like proper names. --Boson (talk) 12:05, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, § is a widely used symbol that means "section" (whereas ¶ of course means "paragraph"), and I'm not sure what you mean by "not typable normally"—I just typed it now. However, the article should be named whatever it is widely known as. — The Man in Question (in question)  23:29, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

article move
If there is cause for moving the article, it's not the § (which is a perfectly common Latin-1 character), but the fact that most people will not recognize the topic from the current title. A sensible move would be to a title like Prohibition of symbols of unconstitutional organisations in Germany or similar, but I couldn't think of anything reasonably short that accurately identifies the topic.

User:Skomorokh is of course free to be WP:BOLD and move any article to any title he likes, but it is unclear how the move is in any way a reflection of the "outcome" of the "discussion" above. I recommend reverting the move pending a better suggestion. --dab (𒁳) 13:18, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Exception to historical documents
What is the exception to documents that contain the symbol(s) produced before Germany's surrender for historical preservation? --Flightsoffancy (talk) 14:54, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

the law concerns dissemination, not preservation. --dab (𒁳) 21:11, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Comical Hypocrisy
Outside of Germany, this law appears to be some sort of hypocritical joke, as fully half or more of the symbols banned by this law were used on a large scale by the German government itself, to represent itself. Surely the German people must realize this, and have become ambivalent about it in a type of doublethink. Reference also: Freedom_of_speech_by_country and Censorship_in_Germany.

Indeed, in Germany, the current 'democratic' regime's outlawing symbols of unconstitutionally approved parties, would appear to be no more democratic or tolerant of other political parties or ideologies, than previous fascist government, which itself did exactly the same, outlawing and criminalizing the display of symbols of competing parties, once it had gained power.


 * Says who? --31.17.188.18 (talk) 16:06, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Satire or Parody
Recently I was suprised to see that the Iron Sky movie will be released in Germany, since it depicts swatstikas and other symbols related to nazism. The articles section about anti-facist movements tells me that in very specific cases the use of a swatstika in relation to nazism is condoned. The movie Iron Sky is however a comedy parodying a lot of recent day politicians and defines an alternative history in it's setting. Therefore one could argue the symbols are not used to depict an actual facist movement but a fictional one. If this statement were to be declined one could argue the movie does not encourage, promote or discourage the support of 'unconstitutional organisations'. So now I wonder how the Law would accomodates for Satire or Parody.83.128.29.38 (talk) 17:11, 22 March 2012 (UTC) PS: I should mention I am unaware how (or even if) the move is adapted for the German public.


 * you should not ignore the whole section. § 86 a references to §86 praragraph 3, which say:
 * (3) Subsection (1) shall not be applicable if the means of propaganda or the act serves to further civil enlightenment, to avert unconstitutional aims, to promote art or science, research or teaching, reporting about current historical events or similar purposes. […]
 * so both sections (86 and 86ab) does not applicable at art - what Iron Sky is. So there would be no neccessity for any specific censoring-process in this case.--87.123.4.88 (talk) 17:36, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

How did the GDR deal with it?
How did the GDR deal with the display of the Swastika and other fascist symbols? 71.173.26.51 (talk) 17:18, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Symbology of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant also forbidden under section 86a?
Not long after the horrific beheading murders of Western journalists by the so-called "ISIL" or "ISIS" group, I had heard on American cable TV news shows that of that terrorist "army" had become as illegal to display in Germany as any of the Third Reich's flags still are there, outside of a strictly historical or educational context...is this true? If so, it's quite an "expected" development, from the near-Einsatzgruppe like behavior of their fighters. The PIPE (talk) 00:38, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Algiz rune?
Is the algiz rune banned? It is not listed among the example symbols on this page. It was used by the National Socialist women’s organization and the SS Lebensborn project so it might be. I found this but it isn't clear regarding if it's actually banned or only discouraged. // Liftarn (talk) 12:08, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

in Israel
The swastika taboo exist in countries where Neo-Nazism is felt. This is why the law in Israel had a smaller fear of these symbols (The Sun Cross and other symbols are not much known.), which used in many black jokes.

84.95.230.168 (talk) 00:34, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Communist symbols
I've lived in Germany in for nearly fourty years and been to some demonstrations during that time. In most leftist and anti-nazi demonstrations there's always some old 68er communists with their red flags and stars and hammers & sickles. Nobody cares, least of all the police.

I wore my tourist kitsch budenovka in public a few times (as a joke, mostly), complete with red star and hammer & sickle, never getting the idea it might be illegal.

I'm pretty sure the article is wrong here, at the moment. The KPD as a party was banned in 1956, true. But those symbols in the article (red star, hammer & sickle, red flag) were never associated solely with the KPD. You could indeed provoke the police to do something by publicly displaying any of those with "KPD" written on or next to them. Socialism isn't legally banned here, it's only that one old party.

If I manage to remember it I'll be back in a few weeks and edit the communist symbols out of the article.

Reasoning: The other side would bear the burden of proof here. There certainly is no German law or Verordnung (legal prescription) explicitly allowing the use of communist symbols that I could quote.

Also, if you speak German, please read the German article linked to from this one. There's no mention of banned communist symbols there. Only of those that are explicitly the symbols of a banned party or association.

(This feels a bit like being on the other end of the "In Soviet Russia they..." meme.) 92.196.60.62 (talk) 23:56, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * We cannot base material in any Wikipedia article on any one editor's personal experience. That called original research, and its forbidden.  Any disputed or contentious changes in the article must be supported by citations from a reliable source, or it may be removed from the article. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:03, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
 * a) On this article's history


 * The claim that communist symbols were banned in Germany stems from four edits by User:Tataral in March 2018. He cited no sources at all so I'll delete the symbols and edit the text in question based on your above reasoning.


 * b) On the ban of communist symbols in Germany


 * I found a PDF issued by the German parliament in 2014 that says something about this topic. The source they used for the relevant section about communist symbols is a doctoral thesis from 2005. I will add a statement describing the current legal situation and cite both sources.


 * c) On the ban of symbols of the Kurdish Workers Party (PKK) in Germany


 * This has regularly been a real issue in recent years, coming to nationwide attention every time the Kurds demonstrate and struggle with the police who try to take away their PKK flags. I intend to add a paragraph, a picture of the flag and cite some (German) articles sometime soon.


 * (Also, I must remember to troll the German Wiki article Gun Ownership in the USA to say something like: "In America you are not allowed to go to high school without a gun.", and then defend the edit by saying the deleters need to cite a law explicitly stating that this is not the case and that their personal experiences don't count.) 92.196.60.62 (talk) 14:01, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
 * We have a sayig here; "Don't be a dick". Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:46, 18 April 2018 (UTC)


 * I request a reliable source for the claim that the hammer and sickle symbol, the red star and the red flag fall under §86 or §86a StGB. I know the article specifies it to the KPD, but read further, please. It would need an explicit ban spelling the words hammer and sickle of the KPD, red star of the KPD and red flag of the KPD in German, and an attachment that pictures these symbols. The implications of a ban of just a red star, red flag and hammer and sickle would be profound. Think of chinese communist symbols. German law is that strict, that if the law doesn't specify it to KPD, Chinese communist symbols were also banned automatically as well as any foreign communist symbols. This means there must be a legal source that states the ban of KPD symbols or of communist symbols, but then there should be a legal source that excepts for example Chinese communist symbols (this source would also refer back to the paragraphs which bans communist symbols). I highly doubt there is even a ban. -178.6.170.217 (talk) 18:24, 1 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I second that. The German articles on §86 and on Hammer and sickle don't mention it to be banned, and https://www.bundestag.de/resource/blob/195550/4db1151061f691ac9a8be2d9b60210ac/das_strafbare_verwenden_von_kennzeichen_verfassungswidriger_organisationen-data.pdf (p.12) mentions that Hammer and Sickle as such are only banned, if they are specifically referring to the KPD. The current communist party uses it legally: https://dkp.de/wp-content/uploads/Unorganisiert/DKP-Neujahr-2021.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.183.46.30 (talk) 18:38, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

However bad the Communist regime of the Soviet Union was at times, there was a time (the Gorbachev government, when the Soviet Union was not so egregious a violator of human rights and was not hostile to the German Federal Republic. For this, the Soviet Union and the Communist Party of the Soviet Union cannot be condemned at all times of its existence as a criminal organization as was the German Nazi Party or the Third Reich. There is no mitigation of Nazism in German history.Pbrower2a (talk) 10:35, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Edit dispute
[[File:Symbolique-bonehead.jpg|thumb|187px|Examples of banned symbols:1. the white nationalist Celtic cross

2. the Odal rune

3. the Aryan fist

4. the Iron Cross with the Nazi Hakenkreuz

5. the SS Sig runes

6. the SS Totenkopf]]

An IP editor is attempting to remove the image and text at right from the article.

The only information given as to why the deletion was made was the edit summary "I deleted it because it was severley outdated and flawed." When I reverted and requested discussion, they restored. I'm opening this discussion to give them a change to explain why they believe this deletion should be made. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:01, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Oddly, KKK symbols seem to be legal in Germany so long as they are not Nazi. Perhaps the KKK has never called for the overthrow of the German Federal Republic or its allies and has never called for genocide. It is speculation to assess whether a KKK-Nazi fusion or its symbols would be treated in the German Federal Republic. Holocaust denial is of course illegal in Germany, whatever the source.

There is no question about the illegality of the Nazi swastika in sympathetic contexts, the Sig runes of the SS, and the Totenkopf. Pbrower2a (talk) 10:44, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Top read page
This page shot up to the 2nd most read page on the English Wikipedia. Any idea why? Calumapplepie (talk) 22:03, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

German title is Verwenden von Kennzeichen verfassungswidriger und terroristischer Organisationen
Would not a translation be better than the current name?Xx236 (talk) 09:28, 14 December 2021 (UTC)