Talk:Straight edge/Archive 1

Spirituality
I think this is well said and should be kept as is:

"Some straight-edgers feel that having a clear mind is a better way to approach life and/or spirituality. They tend to be atheistic or agnostic, often believing in self-responsibility and rejecting the idea of a deity or any divine moral law. However, in many circles the lifestyle has associations with Christianity, and there were at one time a significant Hare Krishna and Mormon straight-edge movements. There are also Muslim straight-edgers, especially in Islamic countries, most notably Malaysia."

Now, there are some people with religious agenda who will try to hijack this part of the article and edit something like: "Straight-edgers tend to be christians" etc (just removed one). To me it sounds like "Heavy Metal fans tend to worship Satan", and even that would be more of a fact than above. Straight edge, as everyone knows, has it's roots in punk and anarchy movement. This has nothing to do with any organized religion. Sure, some people are religious whatever they are, but being straight edge and religious are two separate things. --Nitret 01:29, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

most of this article is lacking in maturity and professionalism —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.161.178.83 (talk • contribs)

I have on multiple occasions attempted to correct a mistake in this section, in which it is stated that because Christians advocate abstaining from all premartial sex, this aligns them with straight edge; but it's not explained in that paragraph or anywhere else in the article that straight edge is not about total celibacy, but rather about abstaining from casual or careless sex. This reference could be confusing to a number of people who have not been exposed to straight edge principles. Ondcp keeps reversing my attempts to clarify this issue. Ondcp, if you don't like my edit, will you at least accept that this issue is not clarified in this section, and it is also not clarified anywhere else in the article. I know there are people who came to this article looking for information about straight edge and came away with a misconception because of this paragraph, which is why I attempted to edit it.

Syntheticzero 18:15, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

The reason I've changed it is because it is in conflict with what is discussed on this talk page and attempts to contradict other parts of the article. The reason it's not stated that it's about casual or careless sex is that there is not a consensus, look at the section on the talk page called sex is good. Ondcp 23:09, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

not a philosophy
A "straight edge" lifestyle is not a philosophy. Perhaps this could be expounded on. 11:28 UTC, 10 Oct 2004

real NPOV problems
There are some real NPOV problems with the straight edge page.

Perhaps you could outline them? --cprompt

The following was moved from the Minor Threat page, but is way, way too non-NPOV to be part of an article: This 'movement' was never advocated by singer Ian Mackaye, who thought of it as more the personal choices that he had made in his life than a worldwide revolution.

Unfortunately, the movement suffered from subversion in later years, with tales (not always true - as with most secondary sources) of "straightedgers" beating up people for smoking. Straight edgers - or sXer's - were characterised by black crosses on their hands, which was customary in West America underage punk shows to differentiate those allowed to buy alchohol, and those too young. It was taken on by sXer's as a subversive way of "sticking it to the man" so to speak - subverting the mainstream for their own gain.

And furthermore...

should be mentioned
I'll see if I can find a way to gracefully put them in, but it seems like the following should be mentioned: Delirium 19:46 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)
 * Ian MacKaye's later denunciation of the straight edge scene he largely spawned.
 * Youth of Today's role as a major 1980s straightedge hardcore band.

straight edge is as follows No drinking alcohol (100% abstinance. there is no 99% alcohol free straight edge. Martini's, spirits and special occasions are no exceptions) No drugs ( you do NOT smoke, you do NOT drink coffee [note: in todays day and age, caffien has found it's way into alot of food products. On the one hand, the emphasis on abstaining from caffien is slackened to make up for this, not to the point where one may consume more then a cup a day. Living this life style still means you rely on a drug to function, if 'coffee wakes you up in the morning'. On the other hand, many people are adopting more organic and vegan life styles. Do your best to live up to a label, not make it live upto your standards)br> No promiscuous sex (you are NOT straight edge if you choose what parts of straight edge you want to adopt. This is one of them. Again, in todays straight edge culture alot of kids disregard this. What does that prove? eventually people can smoke pot and be straight edge if enough people want it? That's an empty label. That's bullshit.)br>

Ian Mckay can be mentioned. But the subculture (as it is not a counter culture, since it is growing in popularity) has now become far removed from one man, especially since he doesn't promote it any more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.161.178.83 (talk • contribs)

I agree -- this entire article is filled with NPOV issues. For example, try supporting any sentence that includes the words 'some' or 'many' with a verifiable source. An extreme of this would be that anyone can make the statement 'Some straight edgers commit violent crimes against women and children.' to add to the list of qualities sXe'rs have. It might not be characteristic of all edgers, but it's probably an accurate statement (as even 1 person constitutes as some). These are just examples and suggestions.

Wow...its kind of embarassing to see what straight edge has become. Maybe it was just in our part of the world, but back in the 80's We ALL consumed huge amounts of caffiene, and most smoked and had sex with anything that would hold still long enough. Straight Edge meant you didn't drink or do street drugs. Period. Amazing how things mutate.

Sex is good
Most straight-edgers today do not refrain from sex; many of them are quite promiscuous (I must say I am in a minority among straight-edgers in liking the sexual abstinence aspect). In any case, I'm removing the bit about sexual abstinence from the four main points.--XmarkX 07:36, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * Well, it's definitionally part of the concept, since Minor Threat coined the concept with "don't smoke, don't drink, don't fuck", and I know at least a few people who consider it part of the lifestyle, so I added it back in. It seems to be somewhat of a controversy in at least some areas&mdash;some people actually consider the promiscuous people (the ones you describe) as being as bad as drug addicts (basically "sex addicts"), part of the hedonistic lifestyle that's essentially the antithesis of the straightedge lifestyle. --Delirium 06:54, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)


 * I resally diasagree. The sex rule is ommitted by most Sxers, not just 'sometiems'. The connection between Ian MacKaye and straight edge is not that significant - MacKaye himself was not straight edge, nor was Minor Threat. Having a foundational influence on a movement does not mean that what you say dictates how the movement works. Minor Threat's songs are not an SXe bible. They are one of many influences on straight edge. Most straight-edgers are not anti-promiscuity, and to say they are on this page promotes a misconception. Many straight-edgers consider eating meat as bad as taking drugs, and many consider those who do not to be straight-edge. In contrast, I have never heard of a straight-edger who didn't consider someone straight-edge because of their sexual behaviour.
 * There really is a serious problem encountered by straight-edgers that so many people who are not sXe, even in punk circles, assume that straight-edgers are anti-promiscuity, or vegan or Christian. This encyclopedia should be about providing accurate information.--XmarkX 09:51, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * I suppose it must depend on what circles you travel in&mdash;most sXers I know are anti-promiscuity, but not anti-meat-eating, and base much of their lifestyle on Minor Threat and a few other bands, like Youth of Today (in addition to having Minor Threat patches on their jackets and whatnot). Perhaps this differs by region? --Delirium 17:13, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)


 * Hmm, another thought I had&mdash;what age people are the ones you're talking about? The sXers I know are mostly mid-20s or older, so this might differ amongst the current teenage crowd, with whom I'm not familiar. --Delirium 17:19, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)


 * It's true that the region I'm in, Australia, is probably not that representative. However, I'm basing my view also on the current stances of straight-edge bands and zines, from Europe and the US, which uniformly are interested in veganism and not sex. I refer you to very popular current sXe bands like Good Clean Fun and Rambo. People I am talking about range from 14 to 30, same trends among all of them.--XmarkX 01:35, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I googled and found this:

From a Minor Threat interview in Touch & Go zine: "Ian: Like Straight Edge, people have taken it to an extreme...as far    as i'm concerned all we did was put out an idea... if people wanna     hear it as preaching if that's what they want.  Straight edge to me    is someone who is alert enough to benefit from what he or she is     doing...

"Lyle: the drug and alcohol is only one side of it anyway, it's alot   more than that, there are other things that can sidetrack you...

"Ian: That's what "don't Fuck" means... alot of people think that to    be straight edge you can't drink, smoke, or have sex and that's     silly... what the don't fuck thing is that the whole getting laid     and getting head thing

"Lyle: living for sex

"Ian: following your penis around is fucking people up more than    anything"

at http://www.faqs.org/faqs/cultures/straight-edge-faq/section-8.html

While modern straight edgers seem to have decided that it really does mean you can't drink or smoke, a lot of them hold the same position on sex as Mackaye did. Hope that helps.


 * Agreed. --Nitret 17:45, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

sex, drugs, alcohol, they all fall into the category of material/worldly entities that an individual can become attached to. just like food. anything pleasurable can lead to any severity of attachment. given the human body's physiological reward structures, the engagement in material pleasure is something natural for the human condition. of course, some things like alcohol are not exactly "natural" because they involve extensive human synthesis... but sex certainly is. perhaps somebody actually wants to make his/her ambition to be the ABSOLUTE detachment from such worldly entities (as with, say, hinayana buddhism). but if that is not the case, they have no place presenting their anti-worldly ethos as absolute or consistent (as straightedgers often do). this is why "straightedgers" are often criticized: they claim to have a hardliner, absolute ethos behind their "movement," however their ethos is anything but absolute or consistent as long as they: have sex (or masturbate), consume "junk food," consume caffeine (BIG one among straightedgers... many of whom have developed caffeine dependency issues, though they may not see it that way since somebody "drug free" presumably cannot become "drug addicted")...

Wrestler CM Punk is an avide Pepsi drinker, so there is some leiniency of the banning on the use of caffine.


 * Most teen straight-edgers I know actually emphasize the anti-promiscuity, and a lot less are vegan or anti-caffeine (sp). I'm not really friends with any 20+ people since I'm 14, but I think that the basis of straight edge is definitely the Minor Threat song, and if specifically mentions anti-promiscuity, whether Ian MacKaye wishes it to be part of straight edge or not. It's not like he has too much of a say now, since he doesn't follow the lifestyle anymore.

There are four "points" to Straight Edge. One of these is anti-promiscuity. While the exact definition of promiscuity can be debated, its place in straight edge can not. There may be individuals that claim edge and do not follow this but tis does not remove it as part of the straight edge movement.


 * i agree that the policy of the SE life changes based on the region or group you associate with. SLC Straight Edge, partially founded by Mormon kids hold on to the "no caffeine" notion moreso as a connection to their religious morals, not the lifestyle.  at least, when i was brought into it, i fit just fine because i was already into the "no smoke, no drink, no fuck" kind of life by choice...the caffeine thing had nothing to do with being Mormon, i just don't like coffee and such beverages.  But even within the hardcore ranks, or leading members, the "law of promiscuity" was often thrown by the wayside.  I am sure everyone has already said it in this section, but it all depends on the individual person within a group or groups to apply their beliefs & how they uphold them.  While there was never really mention of veganism or animal rights in the original idea of SE, i know alot of kids who went away or are still in prison for bombings on animal testing facilites, which they labeled as SE attacks. *shrug* --HatchetFaceBuick 16:26, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Numbers don't matter. Anti-promiscuity/no casual sex is most definitely a part of being Straight Edge. You aren't seriously saying that you can take part in gang bangs every night (an extreme example on purpose) and still be Edge just as long as you don't do drugs/drink/etc? Remember, Edge is about honor, discipline, integrity and respect. Sion 03:08, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Straight Edge is more of a Counterculture rather a Subculture
Straight Edge is more of a Counterculture than Subculture.

Counterculture is defined as - group's values and norms placed in opposition to the dominant culture. Subculture is defined as - a world within a larger world of the dominant culture. Each subculture has a disctinctive view.

But when Values and norms are in opposition to the mainstream values and norms it falls more into the Counterculture.

- A friendly Sociologist

Agreed. I don't think straight edge would have even existed had punk not generally condoned all of the things that sXe rejects now. --BDD 14:53, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Punk itself was a counter-culture. Straightedge - the counter-culture to a counter-culture - has become more a less-mainstream fashion coupled with more-mainstream ethics, putting aside the decision to be vegan. -Christopher Mayo, freelance counterculturist and philosopher. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.60.242.103 (talk • contribs)

It's both. It's a sub-culture because it grow out of the larger Hardcore movement and it's a counter-culture because it's opposed to mainstream culture as a whole as well as other underground or counter-cultures (such as "cannabis culture"). Punk as a whole could be seen as a counter-culture since it's a rebellion against the mainstream. Sion 03:12, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Rise Against
Authough they have straight edge members one of them is not therefore they're not relaly a straight edge band, maybe they should be removed?

Anyone see the irony...
In a picture of someone with "Straight Edge" tattooed on their wrist?

I thought one part of being straight edge, at least in the circles I've been exposed to, was to not harm your body, and therefor, tattooing isn't really considered something "straight edge" people do.


 * This is a case of reading too much into it. Not drinking or doing drugs doesn't have anything to do with "not harming your body" - it more about thinking straight and thus tattos have nothing to do with it. Sean Bonner 02:42, September 5, 2005 (UTC)


 * Straight edge, for most, is about abstinence and self-discipline, what is and isn't straight edge is generally decided by the general consensus of straight edge kids, so considering 50% of straight edge kids have tattoos of some form, i'd say it is stil straight edge to have tattoos - Xsharksx 23:10, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * I don't see why tattoos should be considered harming one's body. Tuf-Kat 00:43, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * You don't see how having a needle slice through your skin and permantly scar it with a foreign substance would be harming the body? You probably think cutting isn't "harming the body" either, you emo. 124.169.228.109 (talk) 06:31, 1 April 2011 (UTC) Harlequin


 * I can see this point, but I have never actually heard of it being part of someone's edge - I am the only straight-edger I have ever met who has no tattoos. For most people tattoos are part of being sxe - I suspect you're confusing us with hard-line.--XmarkX 05:08, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Hardline has nothing against tattoos. I've seen people with Hardline tattoos. Sion 03:25, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't have any tattoos either --Xsharksx 12:38, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I have no tatttoos either. I in fact know of no sXer's in my community that have them.  It's just personal choice.
 * Straight Edge is a movement against things that destroy lives/scenes/families/communities e.g. drugs, alcohol, lechery - it is not some new-age body purity diet! Those that adhere to the Straight Edge ideology can get tattoos and take aspirin when their heads hurt. Likewise, veganism has no part in Straight Edge - No one kills/fights/dies/tears apoart families and scenes because they ate meat, took tylenol, or got a tattoo. Please use your heads here and try to understand the really REALLY simple fucking ELEMENTARY reason behind Straight Edge. Sean Bonner said it exactly right: "Not drinking or doing drugs doesn't have anything to do with "not harming your body" - it more about thinking straight and thus tattos have nothing to do with it."

I want to extend on this irony-point: More than the thing about the tatoo - I am totally astounded that a movement who apperently recommend sexual restraint would use signs as 'XXX' and 'sXe', as the first of course is the videly used sign for pornographic content and the second, as the article says, easily could be pronounced "sexy". This sounds incredible bizar to me! --83.92.21.245 22:01, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
 * It's ironic, but I think it's more amusing-ironic than anything else. Although there are lots of stories about non-edgers thinking someone is stuck-up because their shirt says 'sXe'. Afee 23:08, 19 November 2005 (UTC)


 * We use Xs because that's what they put on your hands at venues when you're too young to drink. In the early '80s, Edgers adopted the Xs at shows to voluntarily opt out of drinking.


 * It's not bizarre or weird if you know what you're talking about. Sion 03:25, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Having a tattoo is not against edge. I suppose it goes to whatever you believe tattoos are. I believe that tattoos are just body modification. or as part of a reminder. I 'm straight edge and have three tattoos and am planning on getting more. Alcohol and drugs DO harm the body. Go to any site and it will show you the consequences. Before you speak you should do some research. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.52.194.50 (talk) 18:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC).


 * Take your own advice. The *moderate* consumption of alchohol has been repeatedly correlated with better health. Light to moderate alchohol consumption has no demonstrated negative impact on health. Vassyana 06:46, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Such studies are uniformly flawed in that they lump all non-drinkers together. Teetotalers are grouped with individuals who can't drink because of health conditions that lead to shorter lives, as well as those who can't afford both alcohol and quality health care. When these factors are taken into account, moderate alcohol consumption shows no appreciable benefits.TerminalSaint 04:15, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

the SE lifestyle does not hold fast to non-alcohol use because of the health effects...at least, not originally. if you read the origins, or the history, it was more a commentary on kids that have nothing better to do than kill brain cells & waste their lives away by getting drunk...same issue that was made about drug use, though, like everything else, members of groups can expand their beliefs to fit just about anything. as far as the issue of tattoos, my group of friends and i all have them...there is nothing in the "codex" that addresses this, to us it's more of an issue of pride & permanency...for people that try to convince us otherwise. =^)--HatchetFaceBuick 16:42, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Straight edge is of staying clear minded not having promiscious acts and volatile substances cloud and fog your mind 203.59.8.110 03:16, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Straight Edge has nothing against body mods like tattoos, piercings, scarification, branding and suspension because you are in control of your body and mind. Any endorphins or other chemicals released are from your body and therefore are not harmful. The only way that could be wrong is if you have an addiction to it. Moderation is the key! The same would go for BDSM practices. It's all about maintaining control of your mind, and through that, respecting yourself and retaining your dignity and integrity.

By the way, if performed by a licensed professional with proper, sterile equipment, tattooing and piercing is in NO WAY harmful to the body. So there goes THAT argument. Sion 03:25, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Youth?
Isn't it the case that the majority of the members of the straight edge subculture are young people? Isn't this fundamentally a youth movement? Of course, like any group without central authority, I am sure there are old(er) straight edge people, but aren't the vast majority people in their teens and twenties? Should this be mentioned in the article? I would add it myself, but for all I know the majority of straight edge people are 60-year-old punk fans... (somehow I doubt it) Nohat 08:30, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, but only because most people "break the edge" once they get older ("sXe till 21!!" is usually joked about). Through a message board I frequented I knew of a 30-something straight edge guy. --macaddct1984 12:36, 3 March 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, if encountering a straight edge person who is over 30 is considered a rarity, then I definitely think it's fair to say that this is a youth-oriented subculture. I've added this to the article. Nohat 18:40, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm 30 and still striaght edge, and have many friends who are 30+ and still straight edge. I don't think that's odd at all. What would be odd would be for someone who was 30 to become straight edge. I think it's definitely something that takes hold in youth but isn't limited to that. If that makes any sense. Sean Bonner 02:34, September 5, 2005 (UTC)


 * Straight edge is as much youth oriented as any other subculture, similar to punk movement. I personally wouldn't mention any age relation. You really shouldn't draw any hasty generalizations from your acquaintances. And if so, most edgers i know are 25 to 35 years of age, including myself. --Nitret 23:53, 4 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I would argue that it is way more youth-oriented than other subcultures (punk as your example). When I was in highschool, my group of friends were about 50/50 edge/not. FF to 2006. I'm 27 now, and am the only person still edge. All the others broke years ago. However, we are all still into punk - many of them still in bands (just making more money than 10 years ago!) SnaX 22:40, 1 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Im gonna put my two pence in here - actually I would say that straight edge (where I live anyways) is definately not a youth thing, apart from me,15, there is no-one who has even heard of straight edge really. Although there is a group of about 5 apparently in Dumfries, all of whom are older, like late 20's, 30s ish - with kids and jobs,, all of the people i know are into drinking, and some taking drugs, im the one who sticks out like a sore thumb and hey, straight edge isnt just a hardcore punk thing, it is mainly - but there are a few of us who aren't hardcore on punk (personally I'm more into metal, punk rock, goth and emo music) ~ but yeah hardcore punk is its mother, and father (please dont throw tomatos at me!!) but if you wish to yell at me over msn, or email - angelaheatherwaude@hotmail.co.uk  06 September 2006

my two cents (which brings that total to about 5 and half (right, angela? =^>) is that again, this depends on the region you are in. I'm 28, i have no notion to change my life just because i have gotten of legal age to do anything...pretty much, i am ruled by the fact that if i didn't like the idea of something then, what makes me think i will like now?  as cultures go around in rotation, just like fashion fads & music, kids find out about something that existed before they were born & they identify with it-- and yes, it IS easier for them to abstain from things that are illegal for them to do (such as drinking) or out of reach (like sex, for those with eagle eyed parents), but it's just as easy for someone to abstain from these things if they really believe in them. i think it's sadder to see someone lose the SE life simply because they can, than if they were to truly have convictions for doing so.--HatchetFaceBuick 16:52, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Criticism
I think we ought to have a section for criticism or controversy. (I've joked with friends that every article on Wikipedia needs a "Controversy" section just because so many already do, but that's beside the point. :) ) Obviously, straight edge is not something that every one can agree on, and there is criticism. Many people I know, and I would count myself among them, follow many or all of the straight edge tenets but informally - i.e. if we ever did smoke or have loveless sex, we wouldn't necessarily beat ourselves up (pardon the pun) about it. I have also seen the movement criticized on the grounds that it is a label that is best rejected in favor of the aforementioned informal following. I have to say I agree with most of that, and it seems like MacKaye probably would for the most part too. Thoughts? --BDD 14:58, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree, but I'm too lazy myself. I feel the same way as you when it comes to the whole informal sXe thing. I don't drink (I think alcohol tastes gross), smoke, or do drugs, mainly because I don't want to be addicted to something harmful. I don't have a problem with things in moderation though, so I couldn't call myself sXe. Furthermore, I wouldn't because I get the feeling that a lot (but not all) sXe's are moralistic and clingy to the sXe ideas. I love the line from propaghandi's song Back to the Motor League, "wieners drunk on straight edge". Anyway, if anyone can eloquently put some criticism in, that would be great. {{subst:Unsigned IP|


 * I think the word "Smug" could be thrown in there somewhere too {{subst:Unsigned IP|


 * I think something should definitely be put in about the ostracism former sXe-er's face if the "break edge." i.e. having to have tattoo's removed, and being shunned. I know it's not done in all sXe communities but it does happen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.166.56.206 (talk) 19:32, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

removal of "Deadhead" lyrics.
I took them out for two reasons: 1) They're not really relevant to sXe; the song attacks the band and the fans but never explicitly advocates the straight-edge lifestyle. (besides, just becasue someone is a deadhead doesn't mean the smoke up and get drunk - there are "clean" deadheads.) 2) Ian MacKaye didn't write those lyrics, Nathan Strejeck did. Perhaps the heading could be re-named "Influential Early sXe Lyrics" instead of "Influential Early MacKaye Lyrics" to incorporate more bands' lyrics?

political beliefs
I think this article could do a more expansive job of covering the political beliefs/orientation of straight edgers. The article mentions the ecology movement and the Animal Liberation Front; are a significant percentage of straight edgers supporters of those groups? Can we assume that as a group they have left wing views (marxism, anarchism)? Or perhaps they are more in tune with the right wing philosophy of libertarianism? If they are a genuine counterculture which stands in opposition to certain aspects of the status quo, then can we assume that this opposition extends into the political sphere as well? If any of the straight edgers browsing/working on this article have some info on these questions then I think it should be added. - Anon


 * I think the current "Although straight-edgers do not necessarily identify with a particular worldview on social or political issues, many do subscribe to precepts associated with anarchism, vegetarianism, socialism, veganism, environmentalism and the ecology movement." is really enough and in fact worth mentioning. However i think it would be far-fetched to go any further since it easily could end up with stereotyping. Nitret 00:22, 5 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I have to agree with Nitret because straight edge has been associated with as much from the left as from the right. In fact depending on what part of the country/word you are in the views of what straight edge is or isn't are vastly different when it comes to politics. Sean Bonner 02:37, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

Not all sXe people are right-wingers. For exanple, sXe wrestler CM Punk uses some leftist ideals on his website, such as when he was asked about gay marriage from one of his fans.


 * Is there is real belief that straight edge people are right wing? Ian MacKaye certainly isn't for example - he liked Skrewdriver until he found out they were racist. Perhaps somebody could provide some examples of right wing straight-edgers.


 * Well, Adolf Hitler didn't smoke or drink and he was involved in a long-term monogamous relationship. I bring him up because I want to illustrate the nebulous nature of our definitions for strait edge and because I am a smart alec. Cranston Lamont 08:08, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well straight edge wasn't a thing then so it's pointless. There is a Neo-Nazi group who believe that they should be sober fight for what they believe. I don't think there needs to be anything about politics in it as it's a given that everyone will have different views on things and there is no political view points for other subcultures, like stoners for example. Libertarian/Anarcho socialism is closest to what I believe. XdiabolicalX 11:40, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Also Skrewdriver wern't always a racist band, they only became so after they reformed 3 years after they originally broke up, with only 1 or 2 original members. XdiabolicalX 11:52, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Personally, I'm a Right Wing Straight Edger. Embrace Today is a well-known Right Wing Straight Edge group, as well. Sion 04:00, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

did straight-edge come from a neo nazi source? im always having this argument with my dad, whome believes that straight edge has an automatic racist meaning behind it.


 * Absolutely not! It came from the opposite of it. XdiabolicalX 23:42, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Uh, it came from Jews? 68.229.164.101 08:41, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

sXe or SXE
I have told the first is correct Paul foord 4 July 2005 13:16 (UTC)


 * There's no right or wrong on this. sXe, SxE and SXE are used all the time interchangably. Sean Bonner 02:40, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

OMG Clothing & "backlash"
The following excerpt from the article is meaningless and stupid. The shirt is not an attack or "backlash" against straight edge in any way. This should be removed. "As one example, on the submit-and-publish T-shirt website OMG Clothing, one phrase that can be seen is "Straight-edge girls are SXE."" 9-29-2005

Further, i think it should be noted that much of the negativity including the "gang" status in utah is a result of the hard-liners, not the straight edgers, though the line between the two gets a little blurry depending on POV Dreamer.redeemer 03:41, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

hardline is the same thing as sXe they just take it to a differnt level, its kinda like veganism some sXe kids are vegans but its not a part of it. They just take there body and anything harmful to it very seriously, trust me im friends with them.

Hardline is NOT the same thing as sXe. In fact, there's a pretty decent article here on what hardline actualy IS (see Hardline (syncretic movement). Hardline was a philisophical offshoot of sXe, but it actively rejected several precepts of sXe as irrelevant and detrimental. It was a MUCH more broadly focused idea bordering on a political group.

Userbox
There is a straight edge template for anyone who wants to put it on there user page. looks like this:

I made my own, which is all black. You can copy it off of my user page if you'd rather use that. Fightindaman 03:44, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

What?
"Last year, a Phil Donahue episode" ...what year was that? (and why does the airdate matter?) &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.194.151.4 (talk • contribs).

Links
I re-added the links section a few weeks ago, because it is silly to not have a links section. Every good Wikipedia article should have links for further reading and information.

Today I have removed two links:

1: A merchandise site. I don't know if someone purposefully added their own store, or if someone just put it in to be helpful, but I don't think it is a good idea to start including links to merchandise for people to buy.

2: A link to sxe.com - there was already a link to it, it does not need a link to both it's main site and it's forums. One link is enough, which is still there.

New changes:

3: straightedge.com - is this site worth linking to?

4: sxe.com - After actually looking at this site, it links to a very poorly designed opening page with some inane ramblings and the owner asking for lots of money for the domain, then an obscure link to a very inactive forum. Hardly a necessary link?

5: straight edge online - this is a valuable resource, any reason aside from years old grudges, that necessitates the continual removal of this site from the links?

-- 5. a valuable resource according to the owner? Since I'm sure this is probably the person writing this. You talk about grudges and then ask for the removal of 2 sites from links? huh? - The external links section should be an inclusive list of links to websites which are about and are in support of straight edge. I do not understand why straight edge community sites are constantly being deleted from this wiki page.

The purpose of the wiki is to disseminate information. What better way to illustrate what straight edge is by linking to sites that are active straight edge communities? Deleting such links is a disservice to those looking for information about straight edge.

I propose the following links be added to the External links section:

http://www.xsisterhoodx.com A female oriented straight edge community. This site has reviews, interviews, articles and an active base of users.

http://www.populationx.com Another straight edge community website with an active base of users. Its goal is to support the hardcore and straightedge community.

http://www.posionfree.com The oldest European straight edge and hardcore community which is still running strong. This site features an extensive FAQ on straight edge as well as a record label, interviews, articles, reviews and more.

–11/30/2006— 63.118.22.130 20:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)kelly brother


 * Wikipedia is not a link farm. The external links section should not be an inclusive list of straight edge resources.  Consider using info from these external links to build the article, then use the external sites as references.  Please read WP:EL.  Strobilus 03:20, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

X
The "X" is talked about in detail in the beginning, but then is given a shortened section in the "overview" as well. I think they should be combined to add coherence to the article, as in, only a short paragraph, and then the bulk of the section about it (especially the part about the CD cover, etc) should be moved into the main part of the article. --Ecurran 00:33, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
 * DIY, man! Be bold! Mgekelly - Talk 03:14, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I was always under the impression that the 'X' mark came from the tradition of clubs and bars marking people's hands in this way if they're too young to drink, which in the UK at least is a common practice and the reason given to me buy various straight-edge kids I've asked. But according to this article the idea originated with the band. Is it possible that while the tradition did not catch on in the D.C. area it did spread to other locations, possibly through the Straight-Edge community? And if so is it worth adding that to the article? Danikat 12:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Intolerance
The ranks of the straight edge culture, like fundementalist Christianity and fundementalist Islam, are filled with intolerant hawks. The majority of straightedgers I have met are at the very least condescending towards those fellow humans who do not choose to believe exactly as they do: the ethical decisions to abstain from drugs and meat-eating are viewed as binding upon all of humanity by many straightedgers, much as Jews view the Noahide laws as binding on all citizens of the world. Some straightedgers go further, escalating to violence in an attempt to 'convert' others to their thought.

It matters not if the ethical decisions made by straight-edgers are correct. It does not matter whether they are well or poorly reasoned, or for that matter reasoned at all, or just adhered to like any other social institution because of pressure from peer groups. What matters is that No man has the authority to make ethical judgments for another, and that the majority's concurrence does not make a particular statement correct.

I tolerate straight-edgers - who live their lives in a way disagreeable to my personal conscience and consciousness - every day of my life, but am tired of them preaching at me - to the point of verbal, and nearly physical, violence (intimidation in every way imaginable) - even more, far more so than your run of the mill Evangelical Christians. Here, I say my piece - hopefully someone will listen and talk to their friends - tolerance is a virtue, and no ethical decision is binding on everyone - only those who choose to accept it with their God-given free will.

-Christopher Mayo, freelance counterculturist and philosopher. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.60.242.103 (talk • contribs)

Your point????

I am "close-minded" in many of my views (meaning, I will not change them on a whim or on another's demand), but not to the point of completely and utterly disregarding another's the moment I find it to contradict my personally-held beliefs. I do not believe it is necessary to accept "close-minded" worldviews in order to be open-minded, but that is for a discussion of logic or philosophy - not encyclopedia writing - and has no relevance to my rebuttal.

This is an open-source encyclopedia - not the place for pushing an agenda, personal or political. In the name of good - even mediocre - journalism, works purporting to be factual must indeed be kept factual and unbiased to the best of one's knowledge and ability - Wikipedia calls this "NPOV". For the sake of neutrality, the author(s) of an encyclopedia or other reference book are compelled to keep an open mind to all ideas - even "close-minded" ones. Neutrality is not achieved by opposing groups hawking their equally-biased viewpoints at each other and leaving the reader to decode what has been written. "Close-minded" authors are not suited for encyclopedia writing, but the writing of editorials.

-Christopher Mayo, freelance counterculturist and philosopher. 69.47.165.223 06:54, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

And we should care why? This is not your personal blog. This is an encyclopedia, not your place to rant. Sion 03:30, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Origins of "Straight Edge" term
I had a paragraph noting that the term "straight edge" as an indicator of vegetarianism or clean living has actually been around for at least 100 years, with citations. It's been removed twice now, on the grounds that the term back then wasn't associated with the punk-affiliated movement it is now. Which is true, but I still think it's quite noteworthy; especially since the article without it gives incorrect information, claiming that Ian MacKaye invented the term. What do people think? Korny O&#39;Near 03:51, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Unless you can prove that Ian Mackaye had heard of/was influenced by this restaurant, then saying that he invented it is accurate. Was he the first to invent it? No, but if he didn't borrow it then it makes no sense to point out that it was used earlier in a completely unrelated context. Fightindaman 04:05, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I disagree. I think the old and new term are close enough in meaning that it couldn't have been a coincidence. Anyone else? Korny O&#39;Near 15:05, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * There does not need to be an unbroken line of transmission for cultural trends. Asserting the predecessors are irrelevent because there is no evidence that the vocal spokesperson for this revival was aware of previous usage is a logical fallacy. Teetotallers and temperance are nothing new, and if "straight edge" has previously referred to such a trend it is indeed relevent. Vassyana 06:58, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Backlash and criticisms
There is no source for this info, and there ought to be KurtFF8 04:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

~ Hardline does not exist anymore and referring to militant straight edge as hardline is inaccurate. They are 2 totally different things with 2 different agendas. The only thing they have in common is drug free, hardline encompasses a lot more and wasn't involved at in Reno.

Who the heck decided to put a clear NPOV violation in this section? Hullo y&#39;all. 16:25, 4 January 2007 (UTC)poopsix

Are sXe ppl naive of drugs?
i'm yet to meet an sXe member with accurate information about drugs, instead they seem to be fueled solely by anti-drug propeganda. Their may be a subgroup among sXe ppl who DO know their stuff but as far as i can tell they are a minority. Along with Christopher Mayo above the majority of sXers i meet are intollerant, and i'll add "Naive" to that as well. This may be a flaw inherent with the sXe philosophy, but more likely they are unfortunate yet typical issues aising from any campaign to teach absolutist morals to children or adolescants - it fosters an attitude of moral elitism (via moral scapegoatism), while giving an ideological excuse for drug-naivety (and fear) instead of education. At the time this is just personal research, so some input from an educated sXer would put the issue to rest. Otherwise the worldview comments in the article should be changed to indicate that sXers do indeed collectively share the worldview of the war on drugs, with a link to it's article. 220.253.93.180 17:08, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * nxoxpxoxixsxoxnx! txrxuxextxixlxxlxdxexaxtxhx! most members of the human cultural genus of Emo Kids are as lame as christopher reeve, and "SxE" with drugs is no exception. Joeyramoney 23:27, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * To be fair, some individuals who self-identify as sXe are naive and absolutist. Then again, there are jerks and militants in every group.  I'm a sXer, and I do know my stuff when it comes to drugs, both legal and illegal.  I simply choose not to partake.  Politically, I support the legalization of all drugs, even though I don't use.   Doesn't mean that I don't think using 'em is lame and disrespectful to one's body; just means that I don't think that the definition of "lame" should be codified legally, and that I think people should be free to control their own bodies.  Also, some of what you see as "moral elitism" might just be frustration with always having to hang out with people who are drunk, stoned, or otherwise out of it.  I sometimes find myself going on the defensive; after all, after explaining to the same person six times, that no, I don't drink, but I appreciate their offer, I get a little testy. In other words: some sXers are naive.  Some aren't.  Not all agree with the War on Drugs, and agreeing with it isn't a requirement to be sXe. Separate issues, mate. DarkAsSin 16:44, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I am straight edge, I know about drugs - more than I'd like to, I've seen my friends get addicted and over dose on the things, and its not pretty, discovering one of your friends collapsed on the bathroom floor of your school with a needle in their hand - being SxE to me is saying that I'm not gonna do that stuff and encouraging younger kids not to too, showing that they can be cool wothout doing drugs. I have seen far too many of my friends make a mess of their lives through various drugs and alchohol - one died leaving his 16yr old girlfriend to raise their kid by herself. I dont want to be there. If you think I am niave then thats your opinion, maybe I am, I dunno. If you want more email me, angelaheatherwaude@hotmail.co.uk 06 September


 * Since when was being straight edge about being cool? Or perhaps I am naive enough to believe people call themselves straight edge because they genuinely believe in what they are doing. Speaking of drugs I'm surprised nobody has mentioned that Ian MacKaye wrote the song Straight Edge because his friend died from an overdose. By way I wouldn't leave your email address on websites unless you want tonnes of spam Paul Tew 15:34, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I call myself straight edge because I believe in it. But I have recently discovered a group of 'scene' kids also calling themselves straightedge - well during the day. That is what I was particularly refering to. And its like an example, its like showing kids that some people can be Sxe and still have fun.

Ignorance and propaganda are abound throughout the entire "drug debate". It has nothing to do with being Edge or any other group. Every group/movement/etc has it's share of intelligent, articulated people as well as...well, let's just say they're less intelligent and articulated. :P

Me, personally, I have religious, moral, personal as well as ethical and scientific reasons to be against psycho-active poisoning and casual sex. Sion 03:37, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

List of Straight Edge Bands/Groups
Does this really need to be here? There's already a wiki entry for it here. I suggest either merging that page with this one or removing the list from here. --Mcr hxc 16:30, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * "Per a recent debate, this list is to be categorized. Once categorized, it will be deleted. Please do not remove this message." XdiabolicalX 22:40, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The list if up for deletion debate Articles for deletion/List of straight edge groups (second nomination) Paul foord 13:01, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Straight edge is now bigger than the hardcore punk scene - thats where it will be biggest, but there are other people who are Sxe Too ~ 06 sep
 * Just because someone doesn't drink or smoke doesn't mean they're straight edge. People shouldn't be jumping into it anyway just so they can label themselves as one thing instead of the other. XdiabolicalX 23:44, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

What is has become
I am surprised there is not a section in this article describing how Straight Edge has become little more than a self-righteous, condescending GANG who feel that they are somehow enlightened by their brain washed, disciple-like beliefs. Because of this, they find it morally sound to use violence as persuasion, or simply shoving their beliefs down the throats of "non-believers", but at the same time, threatening others not to shove their beliefs down theirs. Yes, I have heard straight-edgers refer to themselves as enlightened, but it is truely ironic. If anything, straight edge has degraded to a Neanderthal-like tribe with pseudomodern-day Christian morals. Sickening. At least African American gangs don't try to act somehow socially evolved, because they know they are not.
 * Um, it mentions hardline. And not all sXers are like that, you are making blanket generalizations based on the actions of some sXers. If you can find neutral and reliable sources, feel free to add more to the criticism section, but please do so in a neutral tone. And btw, Neandertals were actually not that bad. Shanidar 1 seems to indicate altruism and compassion in the form taking care of the disabled. Ritual burials of the dead also seems to indicate respect and compassion for others in their group. Just thought you should know. And amazingly enough, there are even some truly compassionate christians in the world too. Some of them even respect other people's beliefs! Perhaps work on that whole over-generalization thing, since you're bound to upset people when you go on the offensive like that, especially with no prior provocation. Ungovernable ForceThe Wiki Kitchen! 09:31, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I have truely been pwned; my hat is off to you sir. In all reality, I did this as an almost test, or perhaps experiment, to see what kind of reactions would spawn from such an opinionated, antipodal outlook on the matter. You probably handled the situation even better than I would--a self-proclaimed expert on the matter (from experience, naturally).

If you feel strongly enough to make statements like that, please back them up with some kind of useful facts. 24.105.131.196 23:35, 14 November 2006 (UTC)Tom Keenoy

Difference from plain abstinence from drugs
The artichle is not particularly good at saying what seperates straight edge from just not using drugs or alcohol. It says they are very different, but not how. Also, the motivations for many straight edgers, or why some turn militant and how they are militant is never explained. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.206.85.180 (talk • contribs)
 * I don't see it saying they are very different without saying how. It does say "Labeling oneself straight edge is a conscious decision that someone makes for themselves and is generally not seen as a label that is obtained by default. One is not straight edge simply because they don't drink, smoke, or do drugs; it requires an active decision and participation in the subculture," which seems like an explanation. I might just be missing what you are talking about though, since I just glanced through it. Personally, I'd say the main difference is active identification, as well as participation with the subculture. For example, you wouldn't label some anime fan who doesn't drink, smoke or do drugs but has no affiliation with the punk or sXe scene as edge (despite the fact that my friend tried to do just that, lots of laughs from that one). You also wouldn't label a punk who doesn't drink, smoke or do drugs as edge if they aren't necessarily committed to that abstinence or just don't want to be associated with the sXe scene (like myself). That's how I see it anyway.  Ungovernable Force  Got something to say? 06:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

So you're saying that Straight edge is abstinence, and liking a certain type of punk music, and hanging out with other people who abstain? Thanks for answering though, but additionally, the other two questions are still not answered in the artichle (can someone tell me how to spell that word). Motivations for people becoming striaght-edgers and the link between abstinence and assaults is not linked.

Article. MegaloManiac 17:29, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

To understand the difference between Straight Edge and simple abstinence, you need to understand the context that the concepts of straight edge developed within. The early identifiers of the idea were kids who were strongly tied to the punk music scene where people (often underage) were getting high or drinking to the point of passing out at shows. Straight Edge was a conscious break from that lifestyle. To be Straight Edge in that context was to go against the things that were being shown as "cool" within the punk scene. So it was, in many ways a counter-counter-culture. Straight edge is inherently linked to the punk subculture, whereas simple abstinence is not. To REALLY get it, you need to have a bit of understanding about the quasi-tribal aspect to the punk subculture and sub-subcultures, q.v. skinheads, hardcore, crust-punk, etc., and understand the desire to self identify with one of these sub-subcultures to gain acceptance and validation. 24.105.131.196 23:46, 14 November 2006 (UTC) Tom Keenoy

Oral Sex
Me and my friend have come to a disigreement. He says Striaght edgers can get blow jobs, I think or at least i practice, Abstinence from oral sex, He doese to but says that striaght edgers can if they want. I know abstinence from sex is a highly debated topic among sXers but I was just wondering. MegaloManiac 22:11, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * SxE's if I am not mistaken, I would say...Is just absitinence from promiscious sex, as long as the sexual acts come from a relationship (30mins doesnt count!), in which both partners really care for each other. And it is not entered into lightly, then sure, I would say that you can have oral sex and still be SxE. I am sure others probobly have a differing veiw from me, like yourself, but there seems to be much debate about a wide variety of sex issues.

Of course it counts as casual sex and is therefore against Edge. Oral sex is sex. Sex is sex.Sion 03:39, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * So many people claim edge.... they aren't. Just let people make up their own mind as to what edge is. --Danlock2 03:41, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Why was that changed? I was replying to the person who started this, not the person directly above me.


 * By the way, the first thing is true, the second is not. Sion 03:51, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * sorry, I didn't realize who you were replying to. Please sign your comments with four ~'s.  And yes, it is true that so many people make up their own minds as to what edge is... edge is not run by anyone.  I know some people who won't even drink caffine because of being edge, while other, say that smoking cigs is okay.--Danlock2 03:49, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I did sign it, it just didn't put my name for whatever reason.


 * As for the caffeine thing, there is room for disagreement there. I personally try to stay away from caffeine but that's more for health issues than anything else. I would love to stop it completely, though. But that's another story. As for smoking, of course that's against Edge. There's no debate there. Sion 03:54, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that smoking is breaking edge, but I've just seen so many people sell out, or say that one cig is okay. My friend thats edge even got mad that his mom gave him cough syrup that had alcohol on in it.  There's just so many kids that 'claim edge', but then sell out, cuz they are still fucking smoking and other bull shit.  Want to hear some local hardcore music? :-D --Danlock2 04:00, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see your point. I agree. Personally, I think you can call yourself whatever you want but until you start living it, it's just a label.


 * Sure, why not? Haha. Sion 04:03, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * http://www.purevolume.com/xtakecontrolx Theres some good music, they're a lot better live.
 * http://www.purevolume.com/safie  also really good, they don't exist any more though. --Danlock2 04:06, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks a bunch.


 * I really like XTCX. I know some people I'd love to dedicate "FYAYF" to. ;) Nice breakdown on That's What I Thought.


 * Safie's really cool, too. I like the lyric "Home is where the heart is. I don't see any heart's around.". Sion 04:22, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

What an extremely ridiculous discussion that has been.

Out of date
The source cited in this article is from 1987. Has this article always been like that? Also, isn't it funny that the article names bands like Bold as a new wind in straight edge? Bold is from the 80s....This article shouldn't even be up if it's just a cut-and-paste job from 20 years ago.

Bands
Even though there are anti christain sxe bands like limp wrist and xfilesx there are also many Christian sxe band, such as haste the day an 18 visions. I just wanted to say that. Saint Edge 18:30, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I've seen Haste The Day, I don't remember ever heard that they are edge...--Danlock2 03:42, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

"Straight Edger" vs. "Straight Edge individual"
A "straight edger" is someone who edges straights. Straight Edge is a noun. The origin comes from the Minor Threat song of the same name, and was described as something you posessed (an edge because you were sober): -- I've got the straight edge --

Not long after, people began phrasing it a little differently: "I am straight edge."

The use of the term "straight edger" has been almost exclusively by people who are ignorant of the subculture: teachers/school officials, law enforcement, parent groups, etc. Straight edge individuals do not normally self identify as "straight edgers." It would lend more credence to the article to change references to "straght edgers" to a variation of "straght edge individuals."

24.105.131.196 23:11, 14 November 2006 (UTC) Tom Keenoy. Straight Edge since 1993.

I've never heard the term "straight edger" used in such a way and I will continue to refer to myself as a Straight Edger and to fellow Straight Edge brothers and sisters as Edgers since the other use of the term you brought up is either made up by you or someone else or is so obscure that it is inconsequential. Sion 04:27, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Total Rewrite
This article needs POV revamping; citations; a section on history and terminology; a criticism section; and a serious reorganization. 71.110.68.228 21:34, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
 * DIY, tough guy. mg e kelly 01:13, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Even with a criticism section, this article still seems slanted in favor of straight-edge and I've seen things that say stuff like "this is what true straight edgers do." It needs a serious re-write. 24.192.19.130 06:01, 23 November 2006 (UTC)An anonymous friend

Slogans?
I've seen and heard a few slogans for the sXe lifestyle, such as "No Sex, No Drugs, just Rock and Roll" and "sXe for Me." Should there be a section for such platitudes?

violence and hardline
"A subset of straight edge—often called hardline—had been involved in physical assaults in the United States during the 1980s and up to the mid 1990s."

I don't have the necessary knowledge to improve this section, but it seems like it emphasizes the role of hardline too much. Also the hardline article itself states that hardline didn't exist until the early 90s.P4k 03:22, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Vegan Reich formed in 1987 and Raid in 1989. Both of these bands were the foundation of hardline. The article on hardline omitted this.

user box
I made these just if any one wanted them.Saint Edge 14:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Great minds think alike- I created  Cat tleG irl   talk 09:19, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

edge and edge gangs
all the people that say a "straight edge gang" is a contradiction to the ideals of Edge are idiots. We work to keep our neighborhoods clean. The guys i roll with dont go out and beat people up for smoking, we take out drug dealers. Straightxedge 03:50, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Look in the mirror buddy. Subcultures and countercultures are rarely (if ever) perfectly unified in self-definition. A large subsection of the sXe scene feels gangs are contrary to their ideals. You, as representative of another subsection, may disagree but that does not make it gospel. It simply illustrates that there are points of contention regarding definition of the label within the subculture. It is worth noting both POVs are POV and my criticism of your comments applies to the assertion you reference as well. Vassyana 07:19, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

straight edge is a joke —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.233.167.166 (talk • contribs)

Confused.
After reading this article I am still very confused about what exactly "straight edge" is. Where do these "guidelines" come from? What authority or source do these beliefs arise out of? From this article, it appears that straightedge culture is simple self-imposed conformity to an entirely arbitrary set of beliefs. Do these individuals abstain from drug use because they decided its a good idea, or because its straight edge? Who decides what is straightedge and what isnt? I don't get it.Colin 01:15, 29 December 2006 (UTC)C.


 * It is a self-imposed label and there is no central authority rubberstamping "official" sXe beliefs. You will find most subcultures and countercultures to be just as nebulous and self-contradicting, except when they are stereotyped or parodied. Who decides what is "real" punk versus "sell-out" or "wannabe" punk? Who decides who is a "real Wiccan" and who is a "Wicclet"? Though there are broad guidelines that can be drawn from the consensus and majority views of such scenes, it is a matter of personal judgement. For the purposes of Wikipedia, proper sources documenting the consensus and/or majority views define the "authorative" view. However, in the interests of NPOV, minority and dissident views, as well as opposing/critical views should be included with proper sources. I know this probably doesn't clear the issue for you, but you are asking for something that doesn't exist. Vassyana 07:29, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It's a fad, especially with people like CM Punk in the spotlight now. 8 years ago it was Backstreet Boys, Limp Bizkit, and Britney Spears, today it's the whole punk rock thing which drags this whole straight edge. It's best just to ignore it, there are bigger problems. Straight Edge is nothing to praise it refers to razors blades and it's for bitches. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.233.167.166 (talk) 20:46, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Weird fad that lasts for 20 + years... Diabolical 15:29, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

It's also wierd that things like punk rock gets devoured by 12 year old girls these days but if you go back to say the 90's it's a completely different story. We see somebody famous do something and we want to be just like them. I've only met one person who does the straight edge thing and he only started doing it after he saw CM Punk on ECW. Maybe it has been around for 20+ years but it's getting out there especially with musical interest these days or in other words what the 3 major corporations are pushing on kids these days. Wikipedia is a database of lies and deception


 * I've never saw a 12 year old girl listening to anything like real punk like Minor Threat, Discharge or the Dead Kennedys. Who care where that kid saw it? There's pleanty of people who've never even heard of CM Punk. Diabolical 13:42, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

It's a youth culture/movement that developed like any other. As for reasons why you would become Edge, that's depends entirely on the person. We all have our own. Sion 03:50, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe these ideas should be written into the article rather than just discussed on the talk page. This isn't a bloody chat room.

Recent edits
Ok, so I'm removing or altering a lot of the last edits and don't have enough room to explain in the edit summary. First, vegetarianism and veganism are affiliated with modern sXe as many sXe's do see it as important. It doesn't mean it's necessary for being edge, but it is clearly a common practice for many. As for the bit about religion, the entire section is about that and you don't need a summary at the end. As for the part about hardline, I like the part about more militant, but the caffeine thing doesn't seem incredibly important to mention, at least not in that sentence. I would think the strong environmentalism, animal liberation and conservative sexual attitudes would be more notable than their stance on caffeine. I'm also trying to clean up the part about mockery from other punks.  Ungovernable Force  Got something to say? 06:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with all that however I've never seen any people who are serious about Straight Edge denying or down playing the sex element as you stated in the edit history. It's only ever been kids that don't wanna miss out on it that I've seen say that. I've seen you on this site for a while and I've also read & respect your views (on your user page) very much so it's not like you're the average Wikipedia (ab)user, I'm just wondering how I've managed to not notice/misunderstand this seemingly large aspect of Straight Edge. Diabolical 02:23, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm just saying that it isn't a necessary requirement for edge from the sources I've seen and people I've talked to. I see it as more of an optional issue, like the vegan thing. It should be mentioned, but I think what really defines edge is the lack of drinking, smoking and drug use. The other stuff comes second. I should also say that I am not edge myself, but I have several friends who are and I've been to several sXe websites, so that is where I'm getting my info on this.  Ungovernable Force  Got something to say? 03:07, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

as to the abstinence issue, i definitely agree that it can be an aspect, but not a requirement. but much the same way that caffeine is. the sexual abstinence thing stems from the line in Minor Threat's "Straight Edge" that goes "don't drink, don't smoke, don't fuck...". Ian Mackaye clarified that he was referring to casual sex, not sex in general, but after many sxe folks had taken that into their belief system. i've known sxe folks who were fine with sex, and those that weren't, and same goes with caffeine, and vegan/vegetarianism. Murderbike 03:49, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Murderbike pretty much just summed it up. I know some edgers who are fine even with casual sex, a whole lot who are okay only with sex in a relationship, and some who are celibate. It's like edge and vegetarianism/veganism; they're associated, but not necessarily connected. It's secondary stuff, and it's not universal. ~  Swi tch t 05:01, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

It's all been said; putting in another point for Drinking & Smoking & Drug use being primary, and other abstentions being secondary; ie, maybe just as important, but not universal. Canæn 03:42, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I've always seen no casual sex mentioned in various places on the web, forums ect, maybe it's because not many people go by complete abstinence and "lower morals" if you will, in society that it has became less of an issue or that the definition of casual sex has went to extremes rather than occasional. I'm willing to accept what you're all saying though. Diabolical 01:51, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * So have I, but I've seen others that have said it isn't followed as much anymore and isn't always considered a guideline. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of promoscuity personally, but I don't think it's considered defining for edge anymore. I'm glad we seem to have reached an agreement. And like I said, we definitely should mention that it is important for many sXe punks, just not all.  Ungovernable Force  Got something to say? 06:34, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree, while the lyrics say dont drink dont smoke dont fuck, and that what it was originally based on, the striaght edge culture has evolved beyond the song, the thing with most striaght edge is that the rules aren't really concrete. there is even a small group of striaght edgers that smoke, I personaly dont drink smoke are have sex, but many of my striaght edge friends do have sex. Also the rules are defined by the culture, If you say Edgemen can't have sex and they do any ways, then we just make ourselves look like hypocrites and no one wants that.

Saint Edge 14:49, 11 January 2007 (UTC) Hey folks, i'm pretty sure that at least on complete discography album there's "i'm guy just like you," not i'm a person..." it isn't actually very important, so i've changed it...BitsOfGGibbllettss

Contradiction
The article says hardcore is a subset of the straight edge movement, but the alt.punk.straight-edge FAQ source gives evidence that hardcore had originated in 1976, well before the 1980 date that straight edge was started according to the article.

207.207.127.243 08:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

no one in slc punnk was staight edge someone fix it
wikipedia is fact and if u actualy watched the movie he gets high and smokes put thats not edge —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 144.35.254.11 (talk) 20:21, 2 March 2007 (UTC).


 * If you don't like the way something is written on Wikipedia, you change it, that's how it works. JUst make sure you can back it up. Diabolical 15:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

current article is misleading w.r.t. MacKaye
The article as it currently stands strongly implies that MacKaye supports the current sXe movement, which he clearly in multiple interviews has said he does not. If we're going to include early-80s quotes from him in support of it, we should also include some quotes of his later repudiation... those actually used to be in this article, but someone removed them it appears? --Delirium 03:41, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think we need them, it's hardly a movement for a start, for example, the feminist movement or the anarchist movement who actually do things. Diabolical 15:58, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

relation to emo?
should something be put in to relate to the emo page? i read there that straight edge is sometimes related to emo. can someone check this out?Jkalltheway 08:25, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Hm. This is on the Emo (music) page? There's only one mention of that, and that's in the development of early emo music with one band. I'd say leave it out of the article, after all, that's really just a coincidence if a sXedger listens to emo music as well.  Cat tleG irl  talk 09:25, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

is Minor threat a straight edge band?
are minor threat a straight edge band cause i dont think they call themself one does that matter? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.106.142.220 (talk) 10:08, 24 April 2007 (UTC).

Straight Edge people
There's a category for straight edge bands, but currently no category for straight edge people. Plenty of people who claim(ed) the edge weren't in explicitly straight edge bands. Thoughts on creating one? ~  Swi tch  ( ✉ ✍  ☺ )  03:06, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm for it. After all, there's a category to list teetotalers. I think there should be one for Straight Edge people. Sion 00:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Metal
More metal, and metalcore bands are adobting straight edge,' like, xDeathstarx, and umm... well there is others, but should there involvment in metal be mentioned at all?

Earth Crisis
How was Earth Crisis *not* part of the Youth Crew movement? Youth Crew lasted up until the late 90s, and Earth Crisis were created back in the early 90s. It's simple.Xanarki 19:24, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

→youth crew was over by the early 90s. the stuff in the late 90s was a youth crew revival. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.17.108.149 (talk • contribs) 2:06, Jun 19, 2007 (UTC)