Talk:Street performance/Archive 1

Hi
I recognized the musicians in the top B&W photo and credited them with their name. They are a rather well known Prague street band who call themselves "The Prague Castle Orchestra" (aka Prazsky Hradcansky Orchestr) and are always seen playing in tourist areas. --99.150.241.219 (talk) 22:18, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Famous jokes
The list of famous people that were buskers is a joke. Just because you stumble out on the street half drunk missing a couple of strings on your guitar doesn't mean you're a busker. It's been discussed here before...with the same results —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.48.158.21 (talk) 21:42, 11 March 2009 (UTC) Heckle away dumdum. All the artists in that list are sourced and known to have been buskers at one time or another. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.137.75 (talk) 19:23, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Wrong again birdbrain! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.227.251.121 (talk) 07:16, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

white collar crime
There are one or more individuals who are aggresively vandalizing this page and trying to cover up the trend of business cartels in the USA lately to commit the white collar crimes of the monopolization of cash flow and free speech civil rights violations. These people seem to be erasing all information about these crimes in the court cases section and seem to be trying to skew and mislead people about the true nature of these cases. It is my belief that they may be doing this in order to get away with thier own criminal efforts at commiting monopolistic and civil rights violations upon buskers. I don't believe covering up these kind of criminal behaviours is in any way appropriate for wikipedia. This covering up of criminal behaviour implicates the wikipedia community as participants in such unlawful things. They also erased mentions of the differences between british law which allows for licensing of speech and public performance and american law in which free speech is an absolute right for all. Also any mention of the intellectual nature of performance art disappears within a week or so. This kind of behavior is grossly inappropriate and will cause people to loose trust in wikipedia as a source of quality educational information.

Re:Revise Resources section
[1] - Photos of Busking Supplies, Pouches, etc.

well duh they are a resource for handcrafted magic items and buskers accesories. [2]An excellent British buskers resource page.

went through this page and doc watsoned them couldnt do because there were too many links for dr watson so i did it by hand and found 6 dead links out of over 80, not too bad.

Revise Resources section
These links lead to personal sales pages or old outdated pages filled with dead links [1] - Photos of Busking Supplies, Pouches, etc. [2]An excellent British buskers resource page

Revise pitfalls section
Okay, the Pitfalls section has a rather arrogant tone and it sounds like it was written by a busker with a chip on his/her shoulder. Someone needs to revise this. Axda0002 00:31, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

How is it arrogant and how does it reflect a chip on one's shoulder? Revise it to reflect what? I don't get it. Those are just some of the real pitfalls of busking. It is not a candy land out there. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.6.41.83 (talk • contribs).

''Some people will deliberately try to stigmatize buskers as such regardless of their social status. It is human nature that when a person puts on public displays of intellect it inspires the jealousy of some those who are less endowed and they will heckle and harass buskers to no end. In fact almost any figure in the public eye and even the best of buskers has had to deal with hecklers at one time or another. A good busker must be able to maintain their composure when in public and never do anything inappropriate when confronted by such juvenile behavior.''

This paragraph containing the previous statment has serious issues with biased tone, weasel words, and some obvious opinionation. Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against buskers, but this isn't an acceptable for an article in Wikipedia. I've gone ahead and revised the entire paragraph to conform to a more neutral tone as well as increasing readability.Axda0002 22:20, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

It seems you are heckling a person for writing about heckling. How perversely pernicious and arrogant is that.? Hecklers are a pitfall of busking and need to be mentioned. There are numerous pages on the net regarding hecklers and how buskers can deal with them. When I get the time I will research and post info about this subject unless somebody else gets to it first.   the search i did came up with 157,000 hits on dealing with hecklers. Some interesting things happening. I was going to point to some of the older versions of this page to demonstrate the heckling of buskers but these page have been removed. there are now large gaps in the pages history missing from the database. ?????

This talk section is probably too out-of-date to warrant my addition, but for what it's worth, I agree with Axda0002. First of all, this business about heckling and the "derogatory" terms used in reference to buskers does indeed smack of a chip on the author's shoulder. I would try to explain this more precisely, but I don't really think that's necessary (unless someone specifically requests it). Just the fact that at least two readers got that same impression independently of one another (I have no idea who Axda is, and I had every intention of saying almost exactly what he/she said) is evidence that the alleged bias is perceptibly present. Furthermore, as far as any of this is concerned, this article is not a how-to on busking, nor should it be the Busker's Apology and List of Grievances. Whether or not buskers are all unemployed and homeless is a matter that can be settled empirically (as I'm sure it has; I believe the author's assertion that most buskers are not homeless), but these facts can (and ought to) be reflected objectively in the article. Chalkieperfect 09:01, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

buskers pages need to be created
Somebody needs to create WikiP page entries for thew following buskers. Stephen H. Baird, Mr. Goldstein, Michael Berger, Harry Perry and Jingles. They have all been dominant in the legal battles to keep free speach free.

regulated busking
the information on regulated busking in the laws area in the form of citations is helpful, but it is presented in an inelegant fashion. we need to do a better presentation, perhaps on the busking venues category page as a sub catagory ?? we should also try to point out places that busking is forbidden in another subcatagory of the venues page. That way buskers can know where not to go.

world info wanted
if we gould get more information about what buskers and street performers are called in other cultures that would be helpful. all the different european countires, india, middle east, asia, africa, south america etc

Spamming
Again, please stop spamming the busker page with text, friends and links that can be found on your website. You are also in violation of Wikipedia's TOS with crude comments about others here on the discussion page. We can only wonder how many chapters of your book you would have posted on the busking page had your computer not been destroyed. Please stop trying to get people to buy your products!

Re:Spamming
u krazy person i havent even tried any spamming here. your behavior is decietful, inflamatory and provacative ive not put a single friend up here i put one link to my url for informative purposes. and virtually none of my book is here. i just feel this page needed some respect and some basic real knowledge about busking added to it. your the one making rude comments. And just what products am i trying to get people to buy? i am a busker i do live performance art at my own pitch how can i sell that on this venue.

busker vocab no hoax at all
Many of those terms are readily found in music, jazz slang and hippie slang dictionaries. some of them may be local colloquial idioms. Dont have the time to re- research and cite them right now. its the weekend and i work when most people play and play when most people work. I'm a busker. I will get back to it in a a week or so.


 * It doesn't matter if the former vocabulary section was true or a hoax&emsp;&mdash;&emsp;it shouldn't be part of the article here in Wikipedia, per What Wikipedia is not. Thanks -- Argon233&ensp;  T &ensp; C  @ &ensp; &notin; &ensp; 00:34, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

BULLSHIT

Excuse me...but Artis the Spoonman and Jim Page are THE MOST FAMOUS U.S. Buskers most probably and whoever is taking off these important BUSKER LINKS is PISSING ME OFF! I am a PROFESSIOANL BUSKER, 27 YEARS. And if you are NEW TO THE FIELD, which you obviously ARE if you do not recognize Artis, Chumleigh, The FKB, Page...then BACK OFF! I put FAMOUS STREET PERFORMERS THERE AS THEY ARE FAMOUS! Jason Webbley? Come on. He is a legend on the internet alone. I've been busking 27 years and not one busker I know has worked with him or even seen his act. I find it gross that you are using MEDIA AND MONEY to define FAMOUS also. FAMOUS IN BUSKER TALK IS YOU ARE A STREET LEGEND. AND YES, EVERY ONE of those I just PUT BACK UP ON THIS PAGE is a LEGEND.

Also this is NOT the MALE BUSKER PAGE. QUIT TAKING WOMEN BUSKERS OFF THIS PAGE!

I have added some WOMEN BUSKER'S names, and some asshole keeps taking them down. STOP IT! If this is a busker page, I will fight for it to reflect REALITY. THis is MY world, I have lived in it for 27 years and I think it SUCKS that some nonbuskers for life keep taking down REAL BUSKER LEGEND NAMES ON THIS PAGE, especially egregious is taking down the FEW WOMEN NAMES HERE!! UGH! I cannot believe that this page sucks so bad and I have to keep coming back to clean up the misogynist "cleansing" of it over and over. KNOCK IT OFF! I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT. Yes, Reggie Miles IS A LEGEND. YOU DO NOT HAVE A CLUE if you do not recognize Page, Chumleigh, even me, Zosima...so again, this page needs to reflect REALITY and I AM ON THE STREETS BUSKING FOR MY FOOD NOW AS I WAS in 1978.

Man, are NONBUSKERS running this page, and WHY? There IS a vocab and it is IMPORTANT. WTF? And for my creds, go to resist.ca/~kirstena/pageperformerpress.html and resist.ca/~kirstena/pagebusking.html I am putting it BACK UP!!!


 * argon u keep resisting the idea of organizing busking terms. when they say say wikiP is not a dictionary the intent is to not have dictionary like entries in the main database. there is nothing that says a subject can not have a lexicon of specific terminology used in that area. you have apparently placed this bottler thing under common things wich it is not. i went to San Francisco this weekend and talked to over 2 dozen buskers non has ever heard of a bottler. it is probably a local idiom or bad joke but it is most definately not a common thing.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.121.162.55 (talk • contribs) 2006-07-05 20:06:45.


 * argon u keep resisting the idea of organizing busking terms. when they say say WikiP is not a dictionary the intent is to not have dictionary like entries in the main database. there is nothing that says a subject can not have a lexicon of specific terminology used in that area.


 * Also you have appearently placed this bottler thing under common elements which it is not. i went to San Francisco this 4rth of july and talked to over 2 dozen buskers non has ever heard of a bottler. the only terms any of them were aware of for such behavior were "hat"man and "pitch" man  and no one there uses a hat man or pitch man except for one peruvian group which sends a little kid out to collect the hat.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.65.109.104 (talk • contribs) 2006-07-05 23:58:46.


 * I am also much more familiar with the term 'hat man', but it is common to have a person (or even the preverbal monkey more commonly found in fiction) performing this task if possible, regardless of what you call them. I moved the description where it is because this is the first time anyone had included this missing piece to the article (I certainly hadn't though to add it until now). I had intended to reword the section to use the more common terms, only keeping the term "bottler" if I can find documented sources, but I've been too busy fixing all of the redundant and not-so-useful internal links that were recently added to the article to work on that yet. Maybe tomorrow.


 * Also if you want your posts to talk pages to be taken more seriously, please learn how to do them better, including signing your posts on talk pages on every post, adding them in crono order, and not editing posts from other people/IP addresses. Not doing these things makes you look about as credible here at Wikipedia as a performer that can't tune their own guitar, no matter how talented they might be otherwise. -- Argon233&ensp;  T &ensp; C  @ &ensp; &notin; &ensp; 00:51, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Argon u know that everything I've put up on this page is true. I've written the bulk of what is up there and a lot of what you do is mangle and rewrite things. My credibility is impecable.

I prefer to remain anonymous because in the past when i have spread my knowledge of busking in public places i have been attacked by anti-busking hackers at my website and also hackers sending me virus infected emails. You put that string of citations regarding permits back up and it is inelegant and misleading. Please put it back the way it was in a paragraph format so one may see where it is they are talking about. Nobody seems to question that some places require permits. The underlying information is important so that people know where not to go and waste thier time. So why obscure it and why do we need so many citation's there? It is bizare and makes the page look freaky so why don't you put it back the way it was. If you want tom make yourself useful why don't you create pages for some of the people mentioned above like Bard Goldstein Turly Pery Etc.

Too busy laffin to edit
We're a small collective of buskers and are too busy laughing at the page to edit it. We can also see this would be a futile task anyway as someone else would just come by and edit the page back to suit their needs. The Famous Street Performers/Buskers is really funny seeing as not a one is actually famous...probably just someones friends taken from someones site or the internet. The duplicate links leads to sales pages. We're staying far away but thanks for all the foo nees.

I find it hard to believe that you claim to be buskers and not know about some of these people. Almost all long time buskers are locally famous. If you don't know, Stephan Baird is responsible for defending buskers rights on the east coast boston area and he has been in the business for over 30 yrs. Your claiming nobody has seen him except for his friends? With out him their might not be any busking in the boston area at all. Harry Perry and Jingles are west coast busking icons and also responsible for freeing up free speech. Their pitch is in venice beach and is freqented by over 15,000 people a day in the summertime. Your claiming nobody has seen them except for their friends? The Bushman is truly a world famous busker and even in wikipedia. He has performed for nearly 25 yrs in a very high volume (30 thousand + daily) traffic environment at the san francisco wharf. Same thing with Louhrie Reed at the SF wharf. What part of being on the cover of a nationally famous magazine and performing for 30,000 + daily makes you not famous. All of the people listed were locally famous and findable on the internet. Being "famous" is not an objective thing but a subjective thing. The fact that you set yourself up to judge that is not right. Just because you are ignorant of some things does not mean the world has to abide and remain under your veil of ignorance. Of the remaining people the only one i've ever heard of was the naked cowboy and i've been studying busking for several years to write a book. It seems to me that you are probably one of the 4 remaining living individuals and just trying to monopolize the space for your self. Or possibly a poser with anti busking sentiments trying to dilute and destroy the art form. The fact that so many buskers abound in our nations capitol is proof of it's legitamacy as an artform. You just catagorically denied all of the people listed without citing any legitimate frauds who were not buskers or famous locally.

WITH REGARD TO THE PLACING OF LINKS I THINK WE SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY LINKS TO PERFORMERS PERSONAL SITES IN THE MAIN BODY OF THE DOUCUMENT. list em but do't link em there. BUT WE SHOULD CREATE a Section in the external links area for them to post their sites to. multiple postings should not be allowed there. gotta go bye


 * Please see External links and When should I link externally for the official guidance about when to use external links here at Wikipedia. Also please sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks -- Argon233&ensp;  T &ensp; C  @ &ensp; &notin;  &ensp; 01:20, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

re:re Clean up?
The editors had to remove tons of spam about 2 weeks ago. Somebody has also put their whole website onto the busking page and added multiple links to their own site in an attempt to get people to buy their products. All the busker "vocabulary" is a complete hoax which will contribute to eventually make Wikipedia's concept of self-editing a laughingstock (Source: CNN).


 * If you know this material in the vocabulary section is a hoax, please remove it. As I do not know this to be a fact either way (my contributions to this article are mostly formatting and other mundain "polishing" tasks), I have added the approprate tags to this and other sections that need verification. I hope that the community will resolve the matter you bring up. Thanks -- Argon233&ensp;  T &ensp; C  @ &ensp; &para;   &ensp; 04:22, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

re Clean up?
Hello All I am an expert on busking who was writing a book on it til i shelved the project when my computers were destroyed a few months ago. I discovered this wikipedia page a few weeks ago and have been rewriting it anonymously with the help of a few of you. I have written about 3/4 of what is currently up. I want to thank the person who has been editing and hooking up all the links. My question is to that somebody who wants to cleanup the famous buskers and noted buskers area. What do you see wrong? When I look at those areas all that I can think of is that some of the people listed in the noted practitioners area should be moved to the famous buskers area. Is that what you are thinking?

Spamming
Please stop spamming the busker page with friends and links that can be found on your website.

Leave the Busker Lawsuit Category Up!
Excuse me, but why are *nonbuskers* taking off *busker edits* that have total relevance to buskers? Look, stop being asses here. This is an important topic and unless *you* are a 30 year vet at busking, you have a lot of nerve saying this issue of lawsuits is irrelevant. Leave this topic to *those who know it* please. I am responsible for putting up the topic category of *current* buskers, which you did not have up until I put it there. I filled out a list of *current* buskers for you. I know what I am doing. I also resolved this issue re busker and street performer since *I am both for 30 years and know what I am talking about unlike the first posters here* so let me say, I filled this page out from the measley thing it was when I found it and I am going to KEEP filling it up with relevant edits and I want you to knock off removing my posts here as I am the busker here, not the ones editing me so it seems. I am SURE I have more years as a busker than ANYONE editing this page. And again, I am the one who just got this page up to speed with REAL buskers nowadays, not some stupid people who are famous now but were buskers category which is all you had when I showed up. (And by the way, before many of you were borne, CAPITALS were considered appropriate for emphasis and Capital use is NOT a crime as you have proported.) - Kirsten Anderberg

In the article the sentence

Some of them report their income to the Internal Revenue Service; some don't.

Is USA specific. The wording should be changed to be more generalized. E.g. I'm sure there are buskers outside of the US but the IRS does not have jurisdiction outside of the US.

Also, implicit in the sentence is the idea that busking income is considered taxable in all places. Funkyj 22:25, 2005 May 15 (UTC)

perhaps we should differentiate between buskers, who play a circle-show, who need an audience, standing and looking, passing the hat after the full show, and those who do not play for a standing audience, but for the walking public, letting the hat stay in front of them all the time, they perform (e.g. often musician, or only "practicing" jugglers,...) regards.

Merge with street performer?
THIS BELOW IS NOT RIGHT. I AM A BUSKER FOR 27 YEARS! Buskers ARE NOT just musicians!!! Buskers play spoons, eat fire, swallow swords...The busker, busking and busk pages need to be linked and yes, street performer should be linked as BUSKER AND STREET PERFORMER ARE ABSOLUTELY SYNONYMOUS IN THE U.S., IN EUROPE, and ELSEWHERE. I know this FOR FACT, as a BUSKER AND ST PERFORMER FOR ALMOST 30 YEARS. Kirsten Anderberg aka Mother Zosima

I've removed the tag. Buskers are people who play music on the street. Street performers include people who do magic shows, juggling, various other circus acts, dancing monkeys and so on. Not the same thing, ergo, no merge. Proto t c 10:20, 12 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I still think they should be merged. If not they at least need clarifying in the intros.  Being an American English speaker, I never heard of the word "busk" until I came to this article; I always knew both as "street performer".  And the "list of British English differences" articles agrees that in Am.E. busk translates to "street performer".  I see busking as a subset of street performers and there definitely are those that blur the distinction (juggling with dancing monkeys while playing music).  If you take offense at buskers being classified as street performers, how about a neutral encompassing term -- maybe "street entertainers" ?  &mdash;Quarl (talk) 2006-01-12 12:31Z 
 * I agree with Quarl. Someone recently added snake charming to Category:Buskers, and my immediate reaction was "What the hell is a busker?" I'm still not sure what the difference is, if any. Merge. — BrianSmithson 12:53, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Buskers / Street performers
Buskers are also known as street performers, I've been one for 15 years so I know that the term is interchangable. However, not all Street performers are Buskers. There are a great many Street performers who get payed to perform on the streets at festivals all around the world, many of these performers never go busking (collecting money during or after the performance from the audience).

Isn't panhandling basically the same thing as busking or street performing? On Wikipedia it says that panhandling is simply begging for money from strangers, but my idea of panhandling is a lot closer to busking than mere begging. Flannel 21:15, 30 March 2006 (UTC) Yes, I agree, merge busking and street performing, but do note that not all street performers get paid, not all 'pass the hat' or ask for pay, and some get paid by the community or whatever for a certain length of time, or whatever.Pedant 11:55, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Add Phillipe(?) Petite to Famous Buskers
I used to catch Phillipe (?) Petite's juggling, unicycle and improvised slackwire act in Washington Square Park when he first came to the US in the early 70s. After he walked between the World Trade Center towers in the summer of 1974 he became famous and no longer did street acts. He was an awesome circle performer who had excellent crowd control using just his whistle, unicycle, and pantomime. I don't think he spoke English at the time. I would post something, but I'm a little fuzzy on the spelling of his first name. -- Etan Ben-Ami


 * Etan, there is an article on Philippe Petit on wikipedia, you are encouraged to add to it or make it better, and feel free to add a mention in the Busking article if you have something you think belongs there.Pedant 12:05, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Busker for 27 years
"(I am sick of replacing this. PLEASE DO NOT EDIT THIS OFF THIS PAGE...THIS CATEGORY IS PUT HERE BY a 27 year VETERAN of busking and unless you have more than 27 years as a busker, LEAVE IT UP. BUSKERS' legal rights are an IMPORTANT part of this page.) Buskers are in a constant fight with authorities to keep free speech alive. It is essential this page acknowledge BUSKER LAWSUITS and LEGAL PURSUITS as these are vital elements to keeping buskers alive and safe.

April 21, 2006: [1] Kirsten Anderberg vs Pike Place Market, City of Seattle, the PDA - A greivance filed and investigation begun on the listed parties with the City of Seattle Civil Rights Commission due to CONTINUED, DOCUMENTED Civil Rights violations on buskers in the Pike Place Market. It is essential that BUskers do sue and keep enforcing their free speech rights and it is extra important that WOMEN SOLO BUSKERS assert their rights, thus this case is important as are all busker law suits and legal actions."
 * re the above section, you may be a busker, but you aren't yet a qualified editor if you don't know that comments are for the talk page only and that citations and references are highly desirable, and that the OVERUSE OF ALL CAPS, BOLD TEXT and the like is not considered appropriate, and that you have to find some way of writing that paragraph from an objective neutral point of view, and you should sign your comments. Your contributions may be valuable and even crucial, but they will continue to be deleted unless you heed the above advice.  Would be a good idea to list MORE legal citations, and even to write a separate article and link to it for any case that is especially important.  If you want some help on that, hit me up on my talk page Pedant 12:02, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

NPOV Issues
Thought I ought to start a bit of discussion here, if only to give a point of reply for whoever is making all the edits with regards to busker lawsuits and the alleged oppression of buskers. I've edited out most of the rabidly NPOV content, replacing it with a neutral statement that there are some people who feel buskers are oppressed and fighting for free speech, rather than endorsing that view as previously done. Also, the link that was previously present, while on its face appearing to be a link to some kind of legal citation which one would expect to go to an NPOV transcript or summary, in fact was a link to a very plainly POV pro-busker page, which from its content and style appears to belong to the man who is a "BUSKER FOR TWENTY SEVEN YEARS" and behind many of the previous POV edits. While POV links are not necessarily totally impermissible when used to point out the existence of certain views, to present them in a manner which appears as an endorsement, with no representation of competing views, and at least in my opinion very poor conetnt on the link itself, is not of encyclopedic merit. Also, POV statements don't cease to be POV by taking the previously problematic paragraphs and inserting quotation marks. I'd propose to whoever is making these problematic edits, could you possibly find some neutral sources to link to with regards to the cases you want to point out? Court transcripts, or even reports of a reasonably respectable government or similar entity would be of merit, but a personal web site railing against oppression is hardly NPOV. 203.35.216.230 03:55, 23 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Kirsten Anderberg aka Mother Zosima (the man who is a "BUSKER FOR TWENTY SEVEN YEARS") is a woman, for what it's worth. She does need to learn appropriate wikipedia style, particularly that we do not have arguments with other editors on the article side of the page.  As a performer, perhaps she is familiar with the concept of on-stage versus backstage?  Pedant

Kirsten, your contributions may be very valuable, but please keep discussion of the article backstage, to keep the article clean and presentable to the idle reader. Also bear in mind that we insist on a neutral point of view, and do not endorse any viewpoint as correct. Try to keep that in mind when editing, it's possible to express controversial material in a way that does not show a bias toward one or another side of the controversy. Also bear in mind that the wikipedia is used worldwide, and not only in one or another country, some material may be confusing if its geographic context is not included. If I can be of any help to you in understanding wikipedia standards, or in any other way, leave me a message on my talk page. I've worked with street performers and other 'weirdos like you' most of my life, I'm about your age, I'm on your side if you need some help, just ask.Pedant 21:14, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

PBS paragraph
I have removed the following paragraph from the main artivle space & have placed here for discussion:


 * In the early 90's PBS aired a video called "Street People". It revealed some very interesting information on studies done from local universities around New York and Boston. They studied street people of all sorts; buskers, street vendors, panhandlers, beggers and the homeless, cops, cabbies and maintenance workers. The studies showed that crime rates tend to decrease around areas in which buskers routinely perform. The old adage "Music Soothes the Savage Beast" was found to be true. The studies also showed that buskers attract and are supported by a better educated, more intelligent, wealthier class of people. This video and those studies were one of the motivating factors in New York's decision to allow buskers to perform in the subway system.

I did an extensive search of the PBS website to verify this information, but could find nothing. this post is an invitation to otheres to cite soutces for these very specific claims. so that this paragraph can legitimatly be reincluded in the main article. Thanks, -- Argon233&ensp;  T &ensp; C  @ &ensp; &notin; &ensp; 14:13, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Argon I did not say it was produced by pbs. I said it was aired by a pbs statiion. There are 2 pbs affiliated stations in the area it was broad cast. i am emailing them to see if they can give me the producers and source of the video. But it was on the air and does exist as sure as there is wikipedia. Why are you so determined to be arguementative and quash and obfuscuarate everything about busking?


 * I see you have added this paragraph back in. I think it's fine, but please leave the fact tag there, along with the others I have added to the article. By adding the fact tags where I have, I am not disputing that these are actually true statements, or saying in some way that you must personally do this research. Instead I am indicating the locations of specific claims that need someone (you, me, or anyone) to provice a proper citation. Including these tags on Wikipedia articles is one way to demonstrate good faith on the No original research and the Verifiability issues that can be brought up on on many articles. It shows that the areas of the article so marked are still a work in progress, and that it is known that these specific claims need supporting evidence.


 * I have also added some links to the talk page for the IP address you use which I respectfully request that you review. Thanks, -- Argon233&ensp;  T &ensp; C  @ &ensp; &notin; &ensp; 01:45, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Finally found the video and the book it came from. It was called "Underground Harmonies: Music and Politics in the Subways of New York" I was way off on the name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.42.254.6 (talk) 23:15, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Busking on the West Coast of the United States
I moved some regional specific information from the main busking article to a new article called Busking on the West Coast of the United States as a compromise solution to avoid a edit war about this material. Thanks, Argon233&ensp;  T &ensp; C  @ &ensp; &notin; &ensp; 22:40, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Other parts of the world
Could someone find some citations addressing busking in other parts of the world? The citations are quite specific to the U.K. right now. vedantm 03:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, the thing is I'd imagine a lot of this is people talking from experience. For example I added, amongst other things, the comment that performing to captive audiences is commonplace in some places, for example in Europe, since while travelling there I saw it on a regular basis on public transport. Yet I can't really use that as a citation. (though if anyone can suggest a way of getting around this, feel free) Plasma 10:42, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I feel the citation process is being abused here. Most of the things in the law and the code areas are actually common law items. Things such as the captive audience concept, not blocking sidewalks, loud music, etc.

npov re argon
Argon what are you doing. You have vandalized all the work i did in pitfalls. You removed all the info re stereotyping and stigmatizing of buskers which is criminal under the torte of defamation laws. Although these are not major issues, they are real problems encountered by real buskers and legitimate pitfalls of busking. WHY??? You also removed all the work i did re legal and rewrote it to be very misleading about the nature of free speech in the USA. U use this locals phrase all over the place, local to where?? u make it seem that it is common and in the USA to regulate free speech when it is not. It is basicly illegal in the USA to regulate free speech above and beyond the common law standards already outlined. In the USA the power free speech is absolute. The judges in all of the decisions have stated so repeatedly. Busking is protected under the first and 14th amendments. What part of that don't u get ??? I was just beginning to lay down some the narrow legal criteria under which free speech can be regulated and you erased it all. Why ??? The biggest reason people try to regulate buskers is the white collar crime of monopolization of cash flow and you erased all traces of it. Some of the biggest violaters of this are business associations and business improvement districts. Are you representing these interests??? The proofs of this are in the waikiki and st augustine lawsuites. Both cities used phony fronts of public safety issues at the urging of local business associations to try and get monopolies on cash flows and the courts saw through this in both instances. Those are just a few of the more prominent cases. Don't make me put down all the other numerous cases i have found. It would be tedious and redundant. You also put in a demand for citation which I am removing. All of those court cases below are the citations needed. Whats up with the obtuse behavior ??? ARGON u seemed like a sincere decent person. Please don't affiliate yourself with trying to cover up or defend criminal behavior or be responsible for diluting the absolute nature of free speech in the USA. When i get the time I am going to redo the work i did unless you revert it yourself and if you undo it again i will declare a npov issue re this article on the grounds u are trying to cover up scandulous behavior.

also you removed the stuf on the video just when i was gettin some headway on finding out the who and when of it. I had found that the studies it was based on were done at harvard and the time may have been way before what i mentioned. i had the names of the students who did the studies but had to leave the computer before i could record them or the url. i am working to refind the site. my girl friend says i have name wrong and that it was "music underground" or something like that. ive done a litle research on this and it could be except music underground seems to be made in the wrong location. im fairly posative the film was about new york. i wont know for sure until ive viewed Music Underground if it was the one. ther is also a video called "street music" but i dont think it was produced until 2001. i saw my video in the early 1990's

Dead links
It may be a good idea to periodically check for dead links on this page via an external link-checker site. I've noticed dead links in the following categories:

See also

References

External links

Resources

Festivals —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.48.192.15 (talk) 01:00, 23 January 2007 (UTC).

npov issues
re the case law area in all civil actions there are 2 sides. the defendants pov are stated yet the buskers pov continually gets wiped of the page. that is not nutrality bu a the real lopsided pov for the defendants even though they lost in all these cases. There is a real npov issue here. whoever keeps doing it is not acting in the best best interests of wikipedia or informing people about whats happening in the real world of busking or free speech in america. in order to be more fully informed both sides should be represented but this individual is desperately trying to hide the victorious buskers sides. Ya just gotta wonder why? what underlies such unreasonable behavior. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.231.240.42 (talk • contribs) 23:21, 4 April 2007

Origin of the expression "Bottler" or "Bottling"
I heard from a street musician friend of mine that the bottler was so called in the UK because the bottler would be given a hat in one hand and a bottle which contained a fly or bluebottle in the other. The bottler would have to keep one thumb over the bottle to stop the fly escaping while moving round the crowd shaking the hat, and because of this he wouldn't be able to dip the hat to steal any of the musicians' donated earnings, having only one hand free to hold the hat. If he got back to the musicians and the fly had gone, they would suspect the bottler had removed his hand from the bottle to steal some of the coins given by the crowd.

Anybody able to throw light on this alternate suggestion for the origin of the term? --mgaved 22:01, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Case Law - USA
Added in "USA" subheader to Case Law section as all the law appears to be referring to the USA. Others may have sufficient knowledge to add in other subheaders for different countries. --mgaved 22:07, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Removed image (Tokyo)
I've removed the picture with the "busking" at Okubo, Tokyo. Those "performers" aren't really performers; they are hired by pachinko shops to make noise while marching up and down the street to attract attention, with minimal attention to the performance aspect. There are of course plenty of proper buskers in the Shinjuku area. o 11:33, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

re photos
we need to remove some of these photos to the photo page. if one is on dial up it takes forever to load. no need for so many photos. they can be on picture page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.65.109.102 (talk) 00:51, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

tsk tsk
Looks like Johnnie Mac has discovered this page and set it up to suit his own interests...that being selling his book. How many times have we seen this here? So much for these wanna-be's NPOV

Bad editing
Someone has thrown out the baby with the bathwater by deleting reference sites that have served this page and many interested buskers and street performers for several years. I'm too busy now but may straighten it up over the upcoming Christmas holidays...then again, maybe not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.48.158.61 (talk) 04:52, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Re vanity pics and bad editing
agree too many vanity pics and too much bad editing removing valuable links. working on fixes Also agree J Mac has also plagerized this page extensively for his book promos etc.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.65.109.102 (talk) 23:09, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Don't know what you mean by vanity pics, but if you mean old paintings (esp. pre-industrialization-- then I agree! --leahtwosaints (talk) 06:25, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Peer Review 1
From the first glance, it is obvious that this Wikipedia page was exceptionally well done and a lot of thought and work was put into its research and display. There were many strengths associated with this page starting with, but not limited to, its layout, references, historical breadth, visual aids, and the sequence that information is presented. On the other hand there are barely any weaknesses on this page, as it has a very professional look to it. The information that is presented about busking is very in depth and lets the reader know precisely what busking is, elements of busking, where buskers play, and the pitfalls associated with this practice. For someone who had no idea what busking was prior to reading this article, I know feel confident that I could give an accurate definition and even provide examples of famous artists who have started out at this level of the music industry. The information is well documented with many external links and references to credible sources. The tone of the article and the information that is referenced is unbiased as it presents the information in a way that doesn’t tilt to one side or another. Additionally, the information being referenced is also extremely current as court cases about busking from as recent as 2005 are used in the Case Law section. I thought it was very beneficial to use the law section that paints a picture of what buskers have had to deal with to play their music. It was also interesting that the author decided to start with the earliest laws on buskers in Ancient Rome where they could be put to death and trace the development of laws on the subject throughout history. The weaknesses of this article are few and far between. One idea may be to highlight one of the famous artists that started his or her career as a busker and perhaps getting their interpretation of what busking meant to their career. The only other thing that could possibly help this article would be to shorten some sections of the article to make it easier to read, but at the same time not cutting down on content. Overall, this Wikipedia page was extremely well done and was one of the best Wikipedia pages I have come across because of its depth of information and pristine lay out. Bakershields15 (talk) 16:52, 25 March 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bakershields15 (talk • contribs) 16:45, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Peer Review 2
This article is extremely detailed and comprehensive. I really like how you define busking very clearly and directly in the intro and then delve further into the topic in the following sections. In fact, the entire setup of the article is very effective as everything expands on previous sections. Including the lawsuit history, anecdotes, and list of famous buskers are good touches as well and give the article more depth. Everything is presented in a straightforward manner and without bias.

The layout is also very good and perfectly complies with the Wikipedia standards. All of your sections are correctly labeled and relevant to the topic. Your references are also clearly marked and seem credible. The pictures also add a nice visual to the article and give it an even more professional look.

This is an excellent article. I cannot really find anything to critique or add. I really enjoyed reading this. Good job and best of luck!

Ersmith9 (talk) 02:00, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Peer Review Round 2
This is the most professional and complete page I’ve seen while doing these peer reviews. The article is visually pleasing as it is well organized and contains appropriate and interesting pictures. The article is extremely informative and I have a much greater understanding of busking now than I did before reading this article. I had no idea that so much went into busking, such as the kinds of various shows (walk bys, café busking etc.) that are preformed. I also found the section of the etymology of “busking” to be both interesting and informative. Your references seem to be legitimate and you did a great job of citing your sources. I was also interested to see that you had included a video on Wikipedia. I’ve never seen that done before. The only thing I think you could add to this article is to include information on one of the most famous buskers in America, The Naked Cowboy in New York City. You can find information on him at www.thenakedcowboy.com. The section regarding laws surrounding busking is also very appropriately included as I found myself questioning the legality of this practice as I read the article. The article answered my questions and I didn’t have to consult another source. The article has very few weaknesses. The article seems to have too many pictures. While a few pictures are interesting and add a lot to the article, too many pictures can subtract a great deal from a good article. Fantastic job overall, very strong article.--Projectpat11 (talk) 00:34, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Not sure if this is still under peer review, but my main comment would be this: the list of well-known people who were/are buskers in the third paragraph really needs citations for every name included -- this is a form of biographical fact-stating that is covered under the BLP guidelines.  It would also cut back on the churn in this section when people add their personal favorites and/or remove the ones "I've never heard of".  Additional, less critical issues: there is a major overuse of weasely words "frequently", "usually", and "often" and a dearth of citations in the "history" section, particularly for some of the more tenuous claims such as relationship to "be-ins" and "cyber-busking".  Jgm (talk) 22:34, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

At the time I created the "superstars who were once buskers" list the appropriate citations were inserted in the articles about the individuals. Since then a few other stars have been added and vandals have removed some of the cits. its hard to keep up with them all. I've also tried to keep the list to true superstars. I have also tried to eliminate vanity posts by buskers throughout the article. thank you the anonymous busker. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.42.254.6 (talk) 22:59, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Move?
I've never heard the term "busking" before reading this. Speaking of "an American busker" has the same problem as speaking of "a Dutch Hugenot" -- American and English street performers, like French and Dutch Calvinists, have a certain amount in common, but are ultimately not the same people. Since this article doesn't confine itself to England, shouldn't this be changed to "street performer," a term not confined to England? ExOttoyuhr (talk) 19:13, 16 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what you are getting at. The article states: "Busking is a British term used in many areas of the English-speaking world. Buskers are also called street performers or street musicians.".  It is perfectly appropriate for the English-language Wikipedia to use the term used in the English-speaking world as the main article name (note that street performer also redirects here).  Or are you claiming that the concept and practice of busking is fundamentally different in the UK vs. the US, or that the word "busking" is not used in the US?  Either way, I'd respectfully disagree.   Jgm (talk) 22:24, 16 April 2009 (UTC)


 * By "English-speaking world," do you mean "English-speaking" or "English-culture"? "Busking" is not used in the United States, at least as far as I know. That said, I don't have the documentation to prove it, so forget it. ExOttoyuhr (talk) 16:34, 17 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, just so you feel better, you might look here, or here, or maybe here. Jgm (talk) 23:10, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

This article definitely has the wrong title and needs to be moved to "street performer". It misses the opportunity for commonality spelled out at WP:ENGVAR by not using a common more explanatory term of "street performer". Busker is defined by Merriam Webster’s Dictionary as chiefly British, has to constantly be explained to travelers, and yes, is a total puzzle to people in the US for starters. The refs to NY, SF, and LA "buskers" points to what a sub group is calling them selves, not what they are called by others. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 18:23, 30 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Do see the refs I posted just above. The fact that some articles on traveling the UK take the time to define "busking" does not imply that the word is unknown or invalid elsewhere in the english-speaking world.  Jgm (talk) 15:27, 1 July 2009 (UTC)