Talk:Structuration theory/Archive 1

Past conversation
Reagle, may we avoid accusing one another of plagiarism just because you weren't satisfied with the original stub that this article began as?
 * I do not see any accusations of plagiarism here, only questions about clarification.

I think we need to "collectively" decide on a citation format. I propose APA for all socio-cultural theories (as is the custom in the research literature). Beyond these - we should either pick the "Chicago" style or the "IEEE/ACM" style -but the citation formats are out of control here in Wiki, in my opinion. Also, I reformatted the citations according to APA format (in the mean time). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.202.192.201 (talk) 17:47, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Renaming as Structuration
I think this page needs to be renamed Structuration. Not one other article on a sociology theory begins with "Theory of...". They are all just called by the name of the theory. If you disagree please let me know, otherwise I will rename next week sometime. JenLouise 00:42, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I concur. -- zzuuzz (talk) 00:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It would also make sense to call the page Structuration Theory, which the way it's usually referred to in academic contexts. Also, the introductory abstract should be revised so it reads less like a ripped off paraphrase of .

While I get the point being made, actually, I disagree with this recommendation. Structuration theory has been seminal, and has spawned several strains (e.g. adaptive structuration theory, structuration agency theory). People who are looking up information (like they do in a encyclopedia) are likely not to find what they are looking for (since structuration is used in many contexts) -at least not easily. If the name is changed, people who are looking specifically for this seminal theory might not recognize it, or may not have enough context for some search engines to find or list high in a list. Moreover, there are other "theory" in titles on Wiki -see for one, adaptive structuration theory! :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.101.136.215 (talk) 15:40, 9 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Structuration theory is a seminal term, and has provided the foundation of other (better operationalized) use of the terms, c.f.: http://www.tcw.utwente.nl/theorieenoverzicht/Levels%20of%20theories/meso/AST_theory.doc/ - calling this page structuration is in one sense okay since it combines the other derivatives, but it is confusing to someone who is trying to understand this well-known theory. I don't understand why people who have commented here cannot understand the difference between an encyclopedia and a treatise -the references should give the readers sufficient sources to learn if they don't understand. I suggest that the title be changed back to its original (correct) form. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.102.125.2 (talk) 18:30, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I was happy to see the article on Structuration, and I think its content is largely accurate. As of 5/10/10, I have done several edits on the article, mostly to clarify the duality of structuration and balance its presentation. It's important to emphasize the link of constraint to enablement, and to note the axiom that all action is transformational. I also disagreed with, and changed, the statements that nonhumans can be agents. I think the point of Giddens' stratification model of agency is to say that agency requires the power to reflect, rationalize, etc., and with rare exceptions in the animal world, only humans have these capacities. This involved a change that removed the passage described as illogical, below. I too think the best title for the article is "Structuration Theory". The article is about a theory, not directly about the social process of structuration.

Typo? Illogical?
This quote from the current version: " To be an Agent is to be a human, albeit not all agents are human beings. " strikes me as illogical; should it perhaps instead read "To be human is to be an agent, albeit not all agents are human beings."? Could anyone more familiar with Giddens' work comment on this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.107.13.34 (talk) 04:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC)


 * You are right. The modifictaion you suggest is much more logical. Giddens says that to be an agent it is not necessary to have consciousness or volition, simply the capacity to influence other agents. Since animals and objects around us can influence us, they can also be considered to be sources of agency (see for instance Alfred Gell's Art and Agency 1998).163.1.117.224 16:33, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Sigh
What a hideous, unforgivable abuse of the language. If Giddens is still alive he should be forced to speak only Latin for the rest of his days.

Giddens
Having tried to use this for research, I think that this article could be bettered with a critique of the theory; and use subject specific terminology less, when more simplistic terms could be utilised - some areas of the page appear laden with terminology which may not be necessary. Sorry if that appears critical - it's an excellent start, and I'll hopefully be able to help with this rather than merely stating that view - and I hope others may agree.~Cortal YX Talk? 01:08, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Vague?
This page introduced several concepts to me, and about doubled my academic knowledge of sociology. I found it generally clear, informative and concise. I would suggest that someone with knowledge of the subject remove a few instances of the words "thus" and "therefore" and break up one or two long sentences. That said, I don't think that the [vague] tags are deserved, nor the "confusing and unclear" banner.Rule11 (talk) 21:38, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Current large-scale edits
For the "Help me" tag, I'm looking for general feedback re: usability, readability, copyediting–anything that could be used to improve the article! Thank you! Mjscheer (talk) 07:44, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm deactivating this help request, as it is now superfluous to the RFC below. Thank you for requesting input, and thank you for your work on the article. Begoon &thinsp; talk  22:32, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Formal request for feedback
Looking for feedback on accuracy, readability, comprehensiveness, and any suggestions or comments on changes that have been made or ways the article could be improved! Mjscheer (talk) 19:21, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Request for feedback outside of the formal RFF above
Hello! My name is MJ. Recently, I have made some large-scale changes to the Structuration page: reformatting the entire page by taking out entire sections (i.e., "Basic assumptions"), integrating new sections ("Criticisms and additions to structuration theory" and "Methodology"), and rewriting most of the content. I did not intend to remove anything that previous authors considered critical to the theory, though I may have done so unintentionally. I am a new editor in Wikipedia, and I hope to inspire a discussion about what could be done to improve the clarity, comprehensiveness, and/or usefulness of the content and structure of the page. As you can see, I have made a formal request for feedback, but I have also read much about the inefficiency/ineffectiveness associated with the a RFF (no offense, any administrators!). I wanted to give anyone who wants to comment on the article a chance to do so easily. I've been very inspired by the dialogues that I have seen on Wikipedia thus far and hope that other (more experienced! or not experienced at all! either way!) editors will engage in discussion about the content of the page either through the RFF above or through the discussion space provided below. Thanks for your time and suggestions! Mjscheer (talk) 06:02, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Hello again MJ. You're right, you often have to poke people. It can take years before they come along, especially on a specialised topic. As I said before I think it's a great rewrite. I'd like to see some mention of the feminist critique (see eg ISBN 052126197X), and undoubtedly others will find endless things to improve, link, format, standardise, and so on, but I don't really have much more to add. It covers the ground well. One thing I can't help thinking though, the wider obvious context with structure and agency in Habermas and Bourdieu is possibly undermentioned in the article, IMO. It might be out of scope, but then I don't really have the time right now to do much about it. Good luck. -- zzuuzz (talk) 11:14, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your feedback, zzuuzz. You've been really helpful, and extremely nice. I don't have any experience with the feminist critique of structuration theory, but thank you for bringing it to my attention! I hope to get to it at some point. As for Habermas & Bourdieu, those are really great ideas and I put some links in the article.  Thanks again! Mjscheer (talk) 16:38, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you, MJ! Very good overview of Giddens. I've upped the class of the article to "B" for Sociology. The language is a bit tough to wade through in places.  I'd be happy to do a bit of copy editing to clarify some language; I have no substantive comments at the moment.  Meclee (talk) 14:35, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your encouraging words, Meclee! By any chance, do you remember what the article was rated before? I agree the language is pretty gnarly. I've done the best I can for now!  As a sidenote, relating to the GA discussion below, I've fixed the citations, added some clarifying language, and expanded the scope a little bit.  Thanks for your help! Mjscheer (talk) 16:38, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
 * MJ, The article was previously rated 'start class'. Thank you for the additional work.  I will now recommend the article for GA status.  Best wishes.  Meclee (talk) 23:26, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I wanted to major in philosophy but can't really handle college right now. I've completed about 3 or 4 semesters do far. That being said, for someone that hasn't really taken a philosophy class but has an interest in it, it's very difficult for me to read this. There needs to either blue links to other pages for theories or philosophical terms, or the ability to understand terms by reading between the lines. I still have no idea what I was reading about. I think that this is probably a very interesting topic, and your professor probably understood everything you said, but encyclopedias need to be understood by the masses. Let me know if you need to know more of what I'm having trouble understanding. Thepoodlechef (talk) 19:29, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Copyedit
I'm attempting the requested copyedit. The language is indeed "truly convoluted" as the GA reviewer noticed. Saying that it is less bad than the original gives it too much credit. Consider: "Giddens observed that in social analysis, the term structure referred generally to "rules and resources" and more specifically to "the structuring properties allowing the 'binding' of time-space in social systems, the properties which make it possible for discernibly similar social practices to exist across varying spans of time and space and which lend them "systemic" form." Agents—groups or individuals—draw upon these structures to perform social actions through embedded memory, called memory traces. Memory traces are thus the means through which social actions are carried out. Structure is also, however, the result of these social practices."

Defining terms through other terms that themselves have to be quoted (implying some special meaning) defeats the purpose. Definitions have to use normal language, otherwise the whole thing becomes a matter of nested Russian dolls. Here we have "structure", "rules and resources", "structuring properties", "binding", "systemic", "structures", embedded memory (which I do not quote, but also cannot interpret) "memory traces" and social practices (unintelligible.) If the use of these terms is unavoidable, their use should be footnoted, so that the reader has a hope at finding out what they are intended to mean.

I can copyedit only by willfully ignoring the meaning of these sentences and only trying to simplify their form (not structure!).
 * Lfstevens (talk) 19:19, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Specific comments/issues

 * 1) I left comments in the text also, in cases in which I wanted clarification/information, but didn't see a resulting discussion.
 * 2) The Routinization section reads as though Bettelheim (routines are durable) contradicts Goffman (routines have to be "worked at", but they are presented as though they agree.
 * 3) The term "reproduction" is used to describe the persistence of systems over time. Why not use the latter word?
 * 4) The article quotes him as saying ""The degree of "systemness" is very variable. ...I take it to be one of the main features of structuration theory that the extension and 'closure' of societies across space and time is regarded as problematic." The reader needs to know what is meant by "closure". Closing down as in the end of a society? Some form of independence or disconnectedness from the outside?
 * 5) "Reflexive monitoring is a commonplace, yet utterly essential, characteristic of agency, and refers to the ability of agents to pursue their wants and desires through monitoring the flow of their actions as well as the settings and contexts in which those actions occur." If something is commonplace, the implication is that it happens commonly, but not universally. I went with essential. Also in what sense is it reflexive? As in what the doctor checks when he bonks your knee? As in Reflexivity (social theory)? As in self-related elements in a set? Later it becomes "coordinate ongoing projects, goals, and contexts". Need help.
 * 6) Agents subsequently "rationalize," or evaluate, the success of those efforts. Rationalization and evaluation are not the same things in common understanding. Why quote one but not the other? What do they mean here? "Through action, agents can produce structures; thrugh reflexive monitoring and rationalization, they can transform them." How can rationalization transform a structure? Doesn't rationalization mean finding a post hoc explanation for an action?
 * 7) "Agents, while bounded in structure..." what does this mean?
 * 8) "Giddens recognizes actors as having knowledge that is reflexive and situated in context, and that habitual, widespread use of knowledgeability makes structures become institutionalized." What is reflexive knowledge?
 * 9) "it is always possible for agents to either act or refuse to do so". The word "refuse" implies choice. I said "agents can always choose whether to act." If choice is not correct, refuse is not right. So it could say "agents can always either act or not."
 * 10) What does "Places the ontology of structuration more in "situ" than on an abstract level" mean?
 * 11) What is "methodological bracketing"?
 * 12) What does "scale" mean in "Focusing on the meso-level at the temporal and spatial scale." Is there some greater or lesser scale?
 * 13) Words fail: "the connected concepts of a horizon of action"?
 * 14) "She primarily examines structural frameworks and the action within the limits allowed by those conditions." The conditions aren't listed.
 * 15) "She maintains that structure precedes agency". Temporally? Logically?
 * 16) What does syntagmatic mean here? The other uses in WP related to linguistics, and use it as an umbrella term for units of language at different scales. I linked to Syntagmatic analysis.
 * 17) "Parker advocates for a theoretical reclamation historical sociology and macro-structures using concrete historical cases, because such a model better explains the creation and transformation of social structures such as institutions and rules, cultural traditions, patterns of regular behaviour, and distributions of power and inequality." OK, but what is that reclamation?
 * 18) What is the difference between an actor and an agent? As in "It is necessary to outline the broader social system to be able to analyze agents, actors, and rules within that system."
 * 19) Is the model of structures and agents meaningful only in a social context?
 * 20) Many quotations still have no page #s.

First pass is complete.


 * 1) Why "modality" instead of "mode"
 * 2) I added the technical tag, because the text remains opaque. More examples?
 * 3) The term "reproduction" and the phrase "creation and reproduction" and variants appear throughout when it seems like a shorter phrase such as "evolution" or "change" might serve. The article should explain why it chooses the former. (Lack of inertial effects?)
 * 4) Are authoritative and allocative resources mere memory traces or are we talking guns?
 * 5) The structures and society page seems circular (legitmation is norms and norms is legitimation. Need a crisper presentation. I left it fearing I was missing something.
 * 6) The term "the duality of structure" seems to be itself reified. I reverted my change to "structure duality" not wanting to transgress, but I definitely prefer the more compact locution.

OK. That's it. Cheers! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lfstevens (talk • contribs) 12–14 May 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Moved. EdJohnston (talk) 16:15, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Structuration → Structuration theory – Title should clearly be "Structurational theory" (which is what Encyclopaedia Britannica calls it) but that is set up as a redirect so I cant do it myself. "Structuration" is just a dictionary word. --Relisted. Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:10, 21 April 2014 (UTC)  --Relisted. EdJohnston (talk) 15:36, 8 April 2014 (UTC) – Penbat (talk) 19:28, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Comment - I have no problem with the move. I would point out that "Structurational theory" would be improper, as "structuration" does not modify "theory", so should not be made into an adjective. To be most grammatical, it should be "Theory of structuration" (a noun that is an object of a preposition) but that was given up in usage some time ago to avoid having thousands of index items starting with "Theory of". Some indices use "Structuration, Theory of" but most use the shorthand version of "noun Theory (also a noun). Meclee (talk) 23:29, 30 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Support Social theory of structuration or Structuration (social theory). This word "structuration" is one of many ambiguous, esoteric labels in social sciences that re confusing to general readers, even readers somewhat familiar with social theories.  "Structuration theory" is not quite good enough, and has a grammar problem as er Meclee.  Structurism is not a type of theory, but is something labelled as a social theory.  --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:39, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Most keen on "Structuration theory" which is also good enough for Encyclopaedia Britannica. Second choice is Structuration (social theory).--Penbat (talk) 20:02, 7 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Support Structuration theory. I'm pulling rank here - I have a graduate degree in sociology, and briefly worked in the field. Okay, I guess Wikipedia doesn't weigh that metric, but I also happen to have The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Sociology, which has an entry on "structuration" that reads, "Structuration theory is a social ontology, defining what sorts of things exist in the world..." Cheers! bd2412  T 02:54, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
 * - Forgive an off-point remark, but having read a few sociology texts, I'm pretty convinced the -ology suffix is getting used in the same sense it's used in things like Scientology. NickCT (talk) 19:15, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
 * It's the other way around. L. Ron Hubbard decided to create a legitimate-sounding neologism by combing the existing words, "science" and "ontology". bd2412  T 19:24, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
 * But that's my point. You hear the word "sociology" and you think to yourself, "Hey! That sounds legitimate. It's got 'ology' in it." Then you actually read the text books..... NickCT (talk) 19:57, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Support, per nom. DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 10:15, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Support - Glancing at this from afar the term "structuration" rarely seems to appear without "theory" next it. Putting the two together seems in-line with WP:COMMONNAME. NickCT (talk) 19:15, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Support - Structuration theory. I could "pull rank" in that I have a PhD in sociology and have taught it for 30 years. Instead, I'll just be very specific that I support re-naming to Structuration theory. Meclee (talk) 20:15, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Support I am agencylessly structured to respek teh authoritah of my co-editors pulling rank. (: walk victor falktalk 16:02, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.