Talk:Stuart Firestein

Essay tag
A essay flag was left at the launching of this page. Since then 4 other editors have revised this article. I feel that this now warrants removing the tag. If there are specific issues that need to be addressed please leave specifics.Sgerbic (talk) 22:49, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Notability?
Per Notability (people) guideline "A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of multiple published secondary sources which are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject"

Here are the sources about Stuart Firestein used in the current version of the article:
 * 1) ^ Firestein, Stuart. "Doubt Is Good for Science, But Bad for PR". Wired Magazine. Retrieved 2012-11-28. - Text written by Firestein himself
 * 2) ^ "Stuart Firestein". Huff Post. Retrieved 2012-11-28. - The Huffington Post -  an American news website, content aggregator and blog
 * 3) ^ Firestein, Stuart. "What Science Wants to Know An impenetrable mountain of facts can obscure the deeper questions". Scientific American Magazine. Retrieved 2012-11-28. - Text written by Firestein himself
 * 4) ^ "Tribeca Film Institute and the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation Announce 2011 TFI Sloan Filmmaker Fund Recipients". Tribeca Film Institute. Retrieved 2012-11-28. - Presents an information that Firestein was member of the Award Committee of the The Tribeca Film Institute
 * 5) ^ Firestein, Stuart. "We Need a Crash Course in Citizen Science". Huff Post. Retrieved 12/29/2012. - The Huffington Post -  an American news website, content aggregator and blog
 * 6) ^ a b Rouen, Ethan. "Five Minutes with ... Stuart Firestein". Columbia College. Retrieved 2012-11-28. - interview published on Columbia College, Columbia University website
 * 7) ^ a b Schwartz, Casey. "Stuart Firestein, Author of ‘Ignorance,’ Says Not Knowing Is the Key to Science". The Daily Beast. Retrieved 2012-11-28. - The Daily Beast is an American news reporting and opinion website
 * 8) ^ a b c d e Rehm, Diane. "Stuart Firestein: "Ignorance How it Drives Science"". The Diane Rehm Show. Retrieved 2012-11-28. - Interview to The Diane Rehm Show
 * 9) ^ "Stuart Firestein". Retrieved September 3, 2012. - biography on the website about World of Science Festival the brainchild of Columbia University (where Firestein teaches)
 * 10) ^ "Eight profs receive Columbia's top teaching award". Columbia Magazine. Retrieved 2012-11-28. - Columbia magazine
 * 11) ^ "Stuart Firestein and William Zajc Elected to the American Association for the Advancement of Science". On Campus. Columbia News. December 21, 2011. Retrieved September 3, 2012.- Information on Columbia University website that Firestein was elected among 539 inductees across the nation as member of AAAS (with 126,995 individual and institutional members at the end of 2008)
 * 12) ^ "Announcements". Columbia University. Retrieved 2012-11-28. - same as previous
 * 13) ^ "Giving Up on Math and Science". NY Times. Retrieved 2012-11-28. - Letter written by Firestein to editor of NY Times
 * 14) ^ "El Meme de la Semana". Destejiendo el Mundo. Retrieved 2012-11-28. - quote published at http://www.destejiendoelmundo.net
 * 15) ^ "Episode 65 Dr. Stuart Firestein JUL 1, 2012". Think Atheist. Retrieved 2012-11-29. - http://www.blogtalkradio.com
 * 16) ^ Viskontas, Indre. "Stuart Firestein - How Ignorance Drives Science". Point of Inquiry. Retrieved 2012-11-29. - Point of Inquiry which is "the radio show and podcast of the Center for Inquiry, a think tank promoting science, reason and secular values. "

I am afraid that above mentioned sources do not meet the requirement of the notability guideline. Unless some sources which actually meet the requirements of the notabilty guideline are presented within reasonable period of time this article should be deleted.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:05, 4 January 2013 (UTC)


 * It looks to me like there are additional sources in the external links that could be used in the article to secure the notability. Let's give a little time to develop those sources before we do anything drastic. Allecher (talk) 02:10, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Nice analysis Antidiskriminator. In the external links area are an interview on C-SPAN's Book TV a TED talk and a review from the New York Times. There are many more interviews Firestein has given, I tried to only include one type of talk in the External Links area, as these interviews can be repetitive in content. I think that NPR's Science Friday and other noteworthy people/organizations are not likely to interview someone who isn't noteworthy himself. The citations that I included in the actual body of the article may not be completely noteworthy, but several of them are secondary sources that explain the history and achievements of the man. The Huffpost, Wired Magazine and Scientific American Magazine citations I included at the beginning are written by Firestein because I was trying to prove that he does write for these noteworthy publications.Sgerbic (talk) 03:36, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I am sorry for not noticing the comment written by Allecher before because I forgot to follow this page. Yes, there is the external link area that I hadn't mention nor checked. Thank you for bringing it to my attention:
 * Big Think is an internet forum presenting a speech held by Firestein himself. I.e. not independent from the subject.
 * C-SPAN is American cable television network, not scholarly source on Firestein. Also, this is interview with Firestein who can't be source for himself.
 * Review published on Guardian website, promoting the Firestein's book sold by the Guardian bookshop - i.e. not being independent from the subject
 * TED (conference) - speech held by Firestein himself, not by someone discussing him or his work
 * Science Friday - a talk show attendend by Firestein himself - not independent from the subject
 * The Amaz!ng Meeting - an annual conference participated by Firestein himself - not independent from the subject
 * The nature of reality - discussion participated by Firestein himself - again not independent from the subject.
 * Firestein's interviews and speeches are not reliable sources which can support his notability per wikipedia rules as far as I know. Since there was significant effort invested in this article I will ask for second opinion on this.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:20, 7 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment: The reliability of those sources does not connect to notability. An interview with C-SPAN and being a TED speaker and being invited to conferences to speak appears to make him notable unless you are implying he has ownership and an inherent conflict of interest with those organisations that would preclude them from matter.  Can you explain Firestein's relationship to C-SPAN and why being interviewed by this would not confer notability?  Ditto with TED?  --LauraHale (talk) 15:20, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
 * My concern about notability was based on Notability (people) guideline which (I think) actually does connect reliability of the sources to notability: "A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of multiple published secondary sources which are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject". I.e. no reliable sources — no notability.
 * Firestein's intereview published at C-SPAN does not meet the above request of notability guideline because he can not be a reliable source for himself.
 * C-SPAN, TED or any other conference or media would be perfectly reliable sources if they would cover Firestein's work presented by someone who is not Firestein himself. If he is really notable then it should not be hard to find such sources. Notability can not be based on wikipedia editors' assertion of notability based on the mere fact he gave interviews and participated at conferences.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:56, 9 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I think it can be a bit murky trying to sort through guidelines for notability regarding appearances in the media, especially regarding professors and academics. WP:ACADEMIC, however, makes a good case for Firestein's notability, as "Criterion 7 may also be satisfied if the person has authored widely popular general audience books on academic subjects provided the author is widely regarded inside academia as a well-established academic expert and provided the books deal with that expert's field of study." I submit that Firestein meets this criteria, as evidenced by his recognition by the AAAS and Sloan Foundation, for openers. TEDx, Big Think, and C-SPAN by themselves might not solidify it, but combined with professional recognition in his field and published works therein, the criteria is met. Nmillerche (talk) 18:30, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Good point. Thank you for your comment. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:14, 10 January 2013 (UTC)