Talk:Subak

Article by Robert W. Young
I uploaded the articel by RW Young to taekkyon.de: http://www.taekkyon.de/download/Taekyon_JOAMA.pdf I like this article, but meanwhile I found out that there are some flaws in it. Expecially on page 50, where he writes about Subak. For example, Taekkyon cannot be written in Chinese characters and does not mean "push shoulder". This is a misunderstanding because of the book "Haedong Jukji" from 1921. There, the idu -writing 托肩 is used. 托肩 is pronounced Tak Gyeon and it means "push shoulder", but this does not mean that Taekkyon or Takgyeon can be translated like this. So we should be very careful with Young's article. Also, quoting General Choi Honghi's claimes about Subak is not a good idea since he was not a historical scholar. He was the "inventor" of Tae Kwon Do and one of the responsible persons for all the distortion and confusion about Korean martial arts. --Hyeondo (talk) 20:18, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Move?
somewhat related to Talk:Taekyon, any objections to moving this article to Subak, to be consistent with the revised romanization of wikipedia korean naming convention? Appleby 20:55, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

- To say that Subak is the same as Taekkyon has to be based on evidence and not mere conjecture. To date I am not aware of any ancient document that will prove this idea. The oldest extant work that depicts empty hand fighting is the Muyejebo Beonyeoksokjip (무예제보번역속집, 武藝諸譜飜譯續集); which was based on Chinese methods. After that we have the Muyedobotongji (again influenced by Chinese empty hand methods). There are only scatter references that talk about Subak (Shoubo in Chinese)and only very recent ones c.a. 1700s do mention Taekkyon. Hence the two articles should NOT be merged.Tianshanwarrior 09:37, 20 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.57.212.10 (talk)

Grandmaster Ko Yong Woo is the inheritor of the Widea Taekkyeon system. This is the system from which Subak created. Grandmaster Ko knows the Taekkyeon system and says that his Master (Song duk ki) and his master (Im Ho) all say that Taekkyeon and Subak is the same, just renamed. Any martial art historian outside of the Widea Taekkyeon circle, cannot know the techniques or have any logical imput. Yes, many Korean records has been lost due to war. Subak belongs in the Taekkyeon circle, the two are the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Carverrock (talk • contribs) 02:41, 28 June 2012 (UTC) -The articles should stay separated, until some evidence surfaces.Carverrock (talk) 03:48, 21 May 2013 (UTC)


 * No, please do not move or merge the two articles. There is a lot to say about both arts and both arts have some connections. However, they are not simply the same. Especially, we know a lot more concret facts about Taekkyon (which was passed down via Song Deok-gi) than about ancient subak (which was not passed down). --Hyeondo (talk) 20:17, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

I agre

taekkyeon + yusool = soobak
It has always been my understanding that the subak curriculum consisted of more than just kicking. And that it wasn't until approx. the early time of the Joseon (chosun) dynasty that the art split up in a kicking part (taekkyeon) and a grappling, joint manipulation art (yusool), of which the latter later went the way of the dodo.

This is what Robert Young tells us in an article he wrote for the Asian Journal of MA. (which you will be able do download from http://www.taekkyon.de/html/en/download.html

Kbarends 09:37, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I see. I read your post.  I will change all articles accordingly.68.148.165.213 05:57, 8 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Wait, what is yusool? I couldn't find it.68.148.165.213 06:04, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Subak vs. Soobak
Why does Subak refer to Soobak instead of the other way around? Both in Revised as in McCune the romanization is Subak. Kbarends 17:21, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * If that is true, you may move it at your leisure - I'm pretty sure the guidelines for Korean-related articles mandate the use of Revised romanization. Bradford44 17:58, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Requested move
WP:MOS-KO requires that non-loanwords be romanized using Revised Romanization. Since most people have never heard of subak, and wouldn't know what it is, it is not a loanword (unlike judo and taekwondo, which are loanwords). Using revised romanization, "수박" should be romanized as "subak". Therefore, the page should be moved to Subak. I would have done it without making a formal request, but an admin is needed to move it. Bradford44 13:31, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Moved. Duja ► 08:49, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Article is incomplete
According to Robert W. Young "subak the only fighting art mentioned in Korea's oldest records, was an ancient, comprehensive system with roots in northern China. Evidence supporting the contention that subak originated outside Korea is provided by Chinese records that list shou bo (Chinese pronunciation of subak) as an ancient martial art in the northern part of the country". see History & Development of Tae Kyon Author: Robert Young — Date: Vol. 2 No. 2, 1993.

Historian Stanley E. Henning also mentions that: The earliest archeological evidence of Korean martial practices (not necessarily of pure Korean origin) is found in one of a group of tombs on norhteast China, an area under Koguryo Kingdom, but colonized and under Chinese military control between 108BC and 313 CE... The murals at this site include one scene wich clearly depicst wrestling (Juedi in Chinese and kakjo in Korean) and another with two protagonist rushing at each other which has been interpreted by some as a depiction of boxing (shoubo in Chinese and subak in Korean). Weather or not the latter scene actually depicts boxing as opposed to wrestling is a matter of conjecture, but what is known is that, already by this time, Chinese martial arts had developed to a relatively high degree of sophistication with a clear distinction made between wrestling and boxing practices." see Traditional Korean Martial Arts Author: Stanley Henning — Date: Vol. 9 No. 1, 2000. Professor Meir Shahar points out to entries in the History of the Former Han (209 BC - 24AD) by Ban Gu, refering to the book Shou Bo see Shahar, Meir, The Shaolin Monastery, History Religion and the Chinese Martial Arts, Hawaii University Press. According to Chinese historian Ma Mingda, Shou Bo was a term used to describe boxing see Ma Mingda 说剑丛稿 /Shuo jian cong gao, Beijing Shi : Zhonghua shu ju, 2007. The above examples precede the Korean sources

--Tianshanwarrior 21:40, 23 March 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.72.39.126 (talk)

Northeastern China, was under the control of Korea and Mongolian forces 2000 years ago, China paid tribute to Mongolia. Chinese Shoubu was also heavily influenced by Mongolia. Chinese history fails to mention the Powerhouse of what Mongolia was and its real influence on the region. Korean was close to Mongolia and had more in common with them. Subak would have been very similar in Mongolia, Korean and China 2000 years ago. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Carverrock (talk • contribs) 02:48, 28 June 2012 (UTC)


 * All this is speculation. We will probably never know what exactly Subak or Shoubo was 2000 years ago, because, up to my knowledge, there are simply not enough sources. By the way, both the articles of Henning and R.W. Young contain significant mistakes. --Hyeondo (talk) 22:02, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

"Subak, Subakgi or Yusul is either a specific ancient Korean martial art."
...or what? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.164.10 (talk) 09:10, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Subak's name's definition "clap" supposed to mean something in terms of Subak's sports contents?
Subak's name's definition "clap" supposed to mean something in terms of Subak's sports contents? I've met people who claim that, because Subak's name means clap, Subak should use palm only or hits side only (like clapping). I've also seen some people who claim that, because Subyukta uses palm only, Subak also should use palm only. These claims are not logical. Many sports like volleyball, baseball, curling have sports motions not in the sports titles. Even regular words like horseplay or thunderclap mean different things with jargons (like thunder's clap not being hands nor side-hitting), not to mention including things outside the names. Also, Subyukta uses palms only cause it's convenient for the gaming, practicing purpose. That doesn't necessarily mean Subak also should be slapping with palm only. Explicit proofs outweigh such implicit wishes & imaginations. Sports names do not describe the entire sports; sports jargons don't mean the same as regular words; games created out of sports don't necessarily represent the entire original sports.

Subak means clap. I've seen some people claiming that a sport named clap must have (or is likely to have) only slaps or hits only side like clapping. This has no logic at all. Just because a sport is named clap doesn't mean such. As for the real rule with evidences, here are the following.

"Chosun Common Sense Q & A is Namseon Choi's 1937 newspaper column", "Subak & Subyuk were the same, a fight game which became a drinking game, children's game. The method is fist, grab moving front & back. Hand & fingers bend." It had Frontal slap + punch. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dp0fnPMWwAIfsuM.jpg

Older references with inherited knowledge are more credible than recent references with imagination or agenda (bending logic to meet goals). Also, what's important is whether the sources are academically reputable. All my sources are academically reputable; most of the references I show from them also happen to be old as a bonus quality. That record says Subak also uses punch, not just hand (bent into palm). It also says the fist moves front & back.

This Kokuryeo Subak picture with 2 mustache men look Subak & the left man looks frontal slapping (like Subyukta). & Subak punched.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/2_mustache_Kokuryeo_Korean_Subak_frontal_slap.jpg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kokuryeo_Korean_frontal_slapping_halfway_to_head.jpg

In 1964, the ethnologist Gimu Hong representing North Korean Science Center Anthropology & Ethnology Research Institute published this book, "there was a game called Subak. This knocks down opponent with punches. Subak was liked by warriors in that era." https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DnvJGLBWwAAauDM.jpg

"Yugyuk showed Tagwon", "with 2 hands, hit his face, neck, back, chest, stomach", "really agile in punching such that no one could go near him", I thought that Yugyuk exhibition record also mentioned slapping forehead, but I can't find it. Tagwon punched. http://cafe384.daum.net/_c21_/bbs_search_read?grpid=12vrX&fldid=1LsP&datanum=196

Yongdangsopoom recorded Subak is also called Tagwon in 1621. It also recorded Subak had Subub, techniques. Korea also recorded Baekta became Gwonbub; Korea had Baekta besides "Subak". https://i.imgur.com/4dqubwA.png

By these physical evidences, I conclude that Korean Subak in Korea had straight frontal slap & punch.

Subak = Shoubo
Subak is the same as Chinese Shoubo. It is the same 2 Chinese alphabets 手搏 pronounced differently due to dialectal differences. Chinese pronunciation of Subak is Shoubo. It's not explicitly Korean nor Chinese art but for the whole East Asia. Hurrying (Byun) knockdown with strikes (frontal slap, side slap, punch) is Subak/Shoubo; gaming is wrestling. Shoubo moves include frontal punching. Like other sports such as baseball, volleyball, curling, Subak (means clap in both Korean Baksu & Chinese Shoubo) has a different definition of what it calls clap; the sport has non-clap strikes as well.

Modern Shoubo doesn't have lineage to the older Shoubo, but China still had Shoubo in the older times; Shoubo is Subak. They are the same sports, the same rules, the same word. Older Chinese historical records on older Shoubo apply to Subak as well.

When Shoubo/Subak was spread to China & Korea, the rules & the sport motions spread and overlapped. Chinese historical records on Shoubo can be used for Korean Subak to a great extent cause they overlap with each other. On Chinese Qin Dynasty's comb (archaeological scholarly source), Shoubo's motions were recorded, which is referenced by Chinese Martial Art Encyclopedia page 5 from China (Chinese Martial Art Encyclopedia Editorial Association). The guy on the right used frontal slap (with palm) on the opponent's frontal face (nose) while the guy on the left defended it with 1 arm while slapping the opponent's chest (another frontal slap) with the other arm.

North Korean Gyuksul/Kyuksul & South Korean Taekyun Yetbub
Gyuksul's earlier era (boxing-like rule) is a proof that Subak existed in North Korea even in the modern era. It's a proof that Subak was mixed with Sibak (Nalparam) & Gwonbub (300 years old Muyedobotongji Gwonbub) to become today's Gyuksul. As for South Korean Yetbub, it's Sibak (Baksi, Nanjangbaksi) which evolved from Subak due to Gwonbub influence. Gwonbub was created from Subak by copying Kung Fu Taizu 32 Palm Way.

North Korean Gyuksul, from Subak or Gwonbub or Sibak? Taekwondo is a mix of Chosun-Gwonbub (started 300 years ago by Korean Muyedobotongji textbook) gym & Karate gyms. However, Korea has had many other Fight Games, particularly street fighting games called Nalparam, Taekyun-Yetbub, Flag Fight (Gitssaum), Pyunssaum (side-fight), Sibak (side-fight). In medieval Jaemulbo book, Sibak was recorded to be also Taekyun, which would mean also being included in Taekyun. Murayama Jijun recorded Baksi & Nanjangbaksi, which were quite different from Taekyun. (Korean sometimes reverse the word order, like Baksi & Sibak.)

Korea had many street fighting games like this Gitssaum picture & written fist fighting description. I don't think there was any ban on Korean martial art by Japan. They probably just banned "unlawful" gathering. https://i.imgur.com/jaTY5Zr.jpg

Here's also something about street fighting contest in Korea 100 years ago. Prizefighting. https://i.imgur.com/i03RApC.png

For the record, Byungin Yoon who taught Gwonbub in South Korea was involved in Gyuksul development in North Korea.

North Korea has a fight game called Kyuksul. According to historical records referred by Mookas martial art magazine, "the earlier contests were about the same as boxing, but in 1987's 7th contest, it evolved to the level of kickboxing." Subak had punch. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DnvIcdeXsAAQ2Ae.jpg

So, it says that Gyuksul was similar to boxing in the earlier era but it wasn't boxing. The only Fight Game or martial art that resembles such trait in Korea is Subak. That would mean Gyuksul was originally from Subak. In the new Gyuksul rules & techniques, Gyuksul also resembles Sibak (Korean street fighting games) & Gwonbub (Muyedobotongji).

https://i.imgur.com/aGQ9L8O.png

https://i.imgur.com/z7RaPQ2.png

https://i.imgur.com/Bs0T0Ij.png

Those 3 pictures are Gyuksul moves. They resemble Korean Muyedobotongji Gwonbub moves, except that Gwonbub's wild swing with shoulder-push uses vertical fist while Gyuksul uses horizontal fist. Those 3 pictures resemble the first 2 Gwonbub pictures in the first line in this picture. https://i.imgur.com/LwjGIti.png

So, in conclusion, North Korean Gyuksul started from Subak. Then it evolved to be like Sibak & Gwonbub. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bearberserk (talk • contribs) 21:12, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Subak Dance (Subakchoom)
Traditional Subak had become a dance; it has passed down in Manchuria. The following Subak moves in the Subak Dance are from Daehansubakhyubhoi (Korean Subak Federation). "기본틀; 수박치기 - 손바닥 치고 손등 치기, 가슴치고 손등치기, 제몸치기(이마, 뺨, 어깨, 옆구리, 허벅, 발바닥), 상대 몸치기, 날개펴기, 무릎 세우기". Translation: "Basic framework; Subak strikes - hit palm then the back of hand, slap chest then back of hand, hit your own body (forehead, cheek, shoulder, waist, thigh, foot), hit opponent's (dance partner's) body, open wings, raise knee". "마무리; 어깨치기에 들어막기로 응수하고 양손 떼밀기하다가 옆구리치기에 무릎 세우기로 방어한다. 가슴치기에 슬쯕대어 피하고 이어서 상대허리를 감아 들고 힘있게 꺽듯이 하다가 엉덩방아를 찧게 한다. 다른 예도 있다." Translation: "Last; slap opponent' shoulder to be corresponded by raising blocking, push opponent with both hands, slap opponent's waist to block by raising knee to defend. Slap opponent's chest to be dodged by swaying. Followed by wrapping opponent's waist with arms, powerfully bend it then let him fall on his ass. There are other cases."

Subak Dance shows Subak, including slapping a dance partner's chest (frontal slap) as well as dodging it. Subak Dance has moves such as slapping his own body particularly forehead, cheeks, chest, shoulders, thighs, feet (frontal slaps & side slaps), and also slapping the dance partner's body in the same manner. This dance is also popular in North Korea but was extinct in South Korea until recently. There is also the motions of making fists in the dance, consistent with the Subak rules historically corroborated by many authorities of Korean sports history. Manchuria's Subak Dance is the ancient Subak made into a dance. It's a great reference to corroborate what kind of moves were in Subak (including frontal slap, making fist). Subak Dance is passed down by Manchuria Koreans and North Korea today. It's recognized & certified by Chinese government as a traditional culture officially. Subak Dance's authenticity is corroborated by its widespread contents (Manchuria & North Korea) as well as its history (Subak Dance was seen 100 years ago). In Subak Dance, when hitting his own forehead & chest (as well as hitting a dance partner's body), frontal slaps are shown.

"일제강점기의 반도의 舞姬, 최승희여사(1911 ~ 1969. 8. 8)도 手拍舞를 무대에서 공연한 적이 있다하며 그의 저서인 "조선족 무용기본동작(1978)"중에 수박치기가 포함되어 있다." Translation: "During Japanese occupation of Korea, Seungheui Choi (1911 ~ 1969. 8. 8) also has performed Subak Dance in her stage. Her book "Korean Chinese Basic Dance Motions" (1978) includes Subak strikes." Subak Dance also has fist motions although slapping is more convenient for practicing, dancing, gaming. "손동작; 손목 꺽기, 손가락 꼬기, 손목 흔들기, 주먹쥐고 앞, 뒤로 흔들기". Translation: "Hand motions; bending wrist, crossing fingers, shaking wrists, making fist then rocking it front & back".

Subak's name meaning
Subak means clap. This is irrelevant from the sport contents like how many sports & activities are named such as volleyball, baseball, curling, horseplay, thunderclap. It's like Gwonbub/kwonbeop [권법/拳法] means "fist way" but also has defense, slaps, kicks, etc. The logic is consistent to Subak; that happens in Subak. However, some people get hung up on Subak's definition, so here's the detail. Subak means hand strike. In Korean language (& also in Chinese), the sport is called "Hand Strike"; clap is also called "Hand Strike". It's not that Korean calls the sport "clap"; it is that Korean calls clap "hand strike" as an expression. There's no single word for clap in Korean; the existing word Baksu/Sonbbyuk is an expression "hand strike" (2 words in expression). Both clap & that sport are "Hand Strike" in Korean language.

Subak having frontal slap
Subak has punches as a proven academic fact, logical & verified. On top of that, some people get hung up on Subak having straight slap. There is straight slap in Subyuk (which came from Subak), Taekkyeon, Subak Dance, Korean Gwonbeop, etc. Also, ancient Kokuryeo's Subak wall drawings show frontal slaps, which some of them look straight slaps. Kokuryeo had a limited number of sports; those reputable archaeological wall drawings can only be matched with few sports including Subak; Subak has a limited number of motions which can be matched with the pictures by the process of elimination. So, Subak had punches & straight slaps aside from having side slaps like cheek slaps (not that different in motion for an arm-extending swing hitting front). Aside from Subak having straight slaps, some people get hung up on swing-slap hitting front. They claim swing trajectory is banana. Consider half a banana with its tip hitting front & middle. (Whether punch or slap, a swing starts at the side of the body; it doesn't start at the middle of the body, which is why it ends at the middle & front of the body.) Also, curve & circle are not the same; curve doesn't have to be consistent in angle-change. Curve's angle change can be different at a different point of curve, flatter or curvier. There's no such thing as flailing in swing. That's not how a swing is done. Jack Dempsey is a reputable source for arc swing hitting front. The swing punching motion starts at Figure 22A (elbow bent, fist loaded at the side of the body), then the swing punching motion ends at Figure 23B (arm fully extended, fist punching front although swing can hit side by choice too). Because swing has both the frontal & lateral vectors, swing can hit either front or side (or even halfway frontal in 45 degrees like cheeks or jaws) by choice.

Subak had a swing slap hitting front or side (can do both by choice, by different curves); Subak had straight slap like Chinese Iron Palm breaking layers of cinder blocks with a straight slap 100 years ago (photographed); Subak had punches. It's arguable whether Subak had all those from the beginning of the sport or evolved in the ancient time eventually, but Subak had them anyway visible already in the ancient & medieval eras. Subak's motions are proven with ancient pictures, medieval writings, Subak Dance (Subakchoom corroborates Subak's moves & rules), Taekkyeon, etc. There are straight slaps in sports (sports can create, add techniques) & also in everyday-life (spanking, swatting). Subak Dance & Taekkyeon have punches, frontal swing slaps, straight slaps, side (cheek) slaps. Subyuk has straight slaps and has a nickname "fist". There are many proofs that Subak had frontal swing slaps, straight slaps, punches.

Even in Subak Dance which represents the old Subak, frontal slap exists. "마무리; 어깨치기에 들어막기로 응수하고 양손 떼밀기하다가 옆구리치기에 무릎 세우기로 방어한다. 가슴치기에 슬쯕대어 피하고 이어서 상대허리를 감아 들고 힘있게 꺽듯이 하다가 엉덩방아를 찧게 한다. 다른 예도 있다." Translation: "Last; slap opponent' shoulder to be corresponded by raising blocking, push opponent with both hands, slap opponent's waist to block by raising knee to defend. Slap opponent's chest to be dodged by swaying. Followed by wrapping opponent's waist with arms, powerfully bend it then let him fall on his ass. There are other cases." Subak Dance shows Subak, including slapping a dance partner's chest (frontal slap) as well as dodging it.

Relationship between Subak, Korean wrestling (Ssireum), Subyukta(Subyukchigi, Sonbbyukchigi)
There are people who claim that, because Subak's name means clap, Subak should use palm only or hits side only (like clapping). There are also some people who claim that, because Subyukta uses palm only, Subak also should use palm only. These claims are not logical. Many sports like volleyball, baseball, curling have sports motions not in the sports titles. Even regular words like horseplay or thunderclap mean different things with jargons (like thunder's clap not being hands nor side-hitting), not to mention including things outside the names.

Also, Subyukta (which came from Subak according to medieval encyclopedia Jaemulbo) uses palms only cause it's convenient for the gaming, practicing purpose. That doesn't necessarily mean Subak also should be slapping with palm only. Subyuk is a part of Subak; it's not the entire Subak; Subak has frontal slaps like Subyuk which has a nickname Sonbbyukchigi (clap strike); Subak also has punches unlike Subyuk although corroborated by Subyuk's another nickname Ken (fist). There's no explicit proof that dictates Subak's rules from Subyuk's motions. Explicit proofs outweigh such implicit wishes & imaginations. Sports names do not describe the entire sports; sports jargons don't mean the same as regular words; new games created out of original sports don't necessarily represent the entire original sports. (Subyuk came out of Subak.) Subak & Subyuk are separate games although related; fist can be made with common sense; Subak had punch unlike Subyuk which only had frontal slaps & side slaps. Subyuk had frontal slaps & side slaps; Subak had punches, frontal slaps, side slaps. Also, even Subyuk had nicknames like Clap Strike (Sonbbyukchigi) & Fist (Ken). "SYOU-PYEK-TCHI-KI - HAND-CLAPPING", "It is usually played to the accompaniment of songs, and receives the name of Ken (Chinese, K'un), 'fist.'", "The hands are then clapped, and opened, palms out, to strike those of the other player". Subyuk had straight slaps despite its nicknames "fist" & "hand clapping". Subak had punch.

As for the relationship between Korean wrestling (Ssireum) & Subak, the direct interpretation of the traditional record "Byun is Subak, Muheui is wrestling. This is today's Taekkyeon", it directly means "hurrying is Subak (Korean wrestling's goal is takedown & knockdown), gaming is wrestling. This (wrestling) is today's Taekkyeon" in euphemism. Hurrying wrestling's goal with strikes is Subak; Subak became Sibak; Ssireum became Taekkyeon; Taekkyeon has both regular Taekkyeon & Sibak (also Taekkyeon according to medieval encyclopedia Jaemulbo) in Taekkyeon.

Similarity between Subak & Taekkyeon-Yetbub
A direct interview with Dukgi Song was recorded in Munyejinheung by Bohyung Lee, published in 1984 by Munyejinheungwon on Volume 11 Number 1 page 67 (이보형, 문예진흥 제 11권 1호, 문예진흥원, 1984.2, p.67, 이보형이 송덕기 옹에게 췌록한 내용). "누상동에는 '장칼'이라는 장사가 있어 키도 크고 힘도 좋고 '복장지르기', '가슴치기'등 택견솜씨가 좋았다." Translation: "Nusangdong had a strongman named Jangkal. He was tall & strong; he was good at Taekyun techniques particularly Bokjangjireugi (Front Stomp Kick), Gaseumchigi (Frontal Chest Slap, slapping chest at front), etc." Dukgi Song testified directly about frontal slap in Taekkyeon. "이보형이 송덕기 옹에게 췌록한 내용". Translation: "the content recorded by Bohyung Lee from direct interview with Dukgi Song."

The same interview & the same book (by Munyejinheungwon & Bohyung Lee, 1984, Munyejinheung Volume 11 Number 1 page 67) includes Dukgi Song's direct testimony how Taekyun Yetbub broke jaw with 1 slap to the jaw as well as his testimony how Taekkyeon had frontal chest slap. There are also online Taekkyeon articles on Taekkyeon Yetbub by the official Taekkyeon organizations. As a side note, slapping cheek is often thought as hitting side, but cheek or jaw is actually halfway frontal in about 45 degrees, not 90 degrees at side like ears. Also, hook and swing are two different motions; hook isn't really used for slapping cheek. Furthermore, sports create techniques & motions; they evolve & add motions not from everyday-life (explicit proofs have to check such). Also, whether hitting 45 degrees, 0 degrees or 90 degrees from the front, shoulder-push & Yong stacking speed, power, mass doesn't change for hand strike; the strike techniques are the same. Taekyun & Subak techniques are consistent in authenticity. Subak had swing slaps hitting front (frontal slap), straight slaps, punches already at the ancient time; Taekkyeon also had all those in the medieval times already. Straight slaps are also common in everyday-life anyway such as swatting, spanking. There are authoritative explicit proofs for Taekkyeon, Taekkyeon-Yetbub, Subak moves from the older eras by reputable sources.

my sources are reputable
For my Korean references, get any Korean. He will verify that those sources sound reputable even if he is not familiar with those sources. The same for my American sources, get any American, he will say those sources sound reputable. My sources are reputable & common by academic standard. They are typical reputable old history books, reputable typical newspaper, reputable archaeology, etc. Also, my conclusions simply follow directly from my references & sources. I'm not inventing any story here. If my sources are reputable, then my conclusions (just reading out what they say) must be true. As for whether my sources are reputable or not isn't up to you. Also, if my sources are reputable, then everything I'm teaching you people is true. You have never heard of these contents before cause you didn't research.

It's the typical academic standard in reliable reputable source. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources

Simply put, a source committed to be recording historical facts is reliable for tracking facts. A source not discovered to be unreliable is reliable (innocent until proven guilty). Reputable.

My sources are largely scholarship & news organizations (even archaeology counts as scholarship). Such standard for reliable sources on Wikipedia is the same for the general academic outlets. My sources can be relied on tracking facts. My sources are reputable in historical facts.

Reputable. As in the old history books & the old newspapers & the old archaeological pictures I quote are both old & reputable. They are known to be accurate & authoritative. That's the definition of being reputable. Those sources are known to be correct & committed to recording historical facts. I largely use scholarly sources & news organization sources.

Subak having punch
Some people claim that Subak shouldn't have punch cause it is named "clap". There's no explicit logic nor proof that a sport named clap shouldn't have punch. On the other hand, there are many reputable references (mainly scholarship & news organizations) that prove Subak had both frontal slap (including swing slap & straight slap) & punches aside from also having side slap (cheek or jaw slap is halfway frontal in 45 degrees).

Even Korean Subak Federation (대한수박협회, Daehansubakhyeobhoi) says that Subak had frontal slap & punch. They teach Subak even today.

Medieval Chinese book Yongdangsopoom (涌幢小品) recorded Subak is also called Tagwon in 1621. It also recorded Subak had Subub, techniques. “백타(白打)는 곧 수박으로 겨루는 것이다. 당나라 장종(莊宗)은 수박으로 내기를 하였으며, 장경아(張敬兒)는 수박으로 공을 세웠다. 세속에서는 타권(打拳)이라고도 하며, 소주인이 말하길 사람의 뼈를 부러 뜨려 죽음에 이르게 할 수 있다. 빨리 죽이고 천천히 죽이는 것은 오로지 수법(手法)에 달려 있다.”

Translation: "Baekta is competing with Subak. Tang's Jangjong gambled with Subak. Jang Gyunga made accomplishments with Subak. Civilians also call Subak as Takwon. Soju people say it can break human's bones to kill. Killing fast or killing slow depends on the (Subeob) techniques." There are also reputable archaeological Subak wall drawings (including frontal slaps) which represent the real life Subak scenes back in the era.

Medieval Korean Royal Journal also describes the rules & motions of Takwon. “유격이 타권의 기법을 앞에서 보여줬다. 그 법은 뛰면서 몸을 날려 두 손으로 자기 얼굴이나 목, 혹은 등을 치며, 가슴과 배를 번갈아치기도 했다. 볼기와 허벅지를 문지르기도 하며, 손을 쓰는 것이 어찌나 빠르고 민첩한지 사람이 감히 그 앞에 접근할 수 없을 정도였다(선조실록 권99, 31년 4월 경신)".

Translation: "Yugyeok showed Tagwon's techniques at the front. The method is leaping the body, with 2 hands, hitting his own face, neck & back, hitting chest & stomach. Also rubbing butt & thighs. His hand strikes were really fast & agile that a person couldn't go near his front."

"수박과 백타를 막연하게 동일시하고 맨손무예를 의미하는 보통명사들이라는 설(設)이 있으나 적어도 위의 타권인 수박은 고유명사인 것(내용 중에 특징적인 기술체계가 있다). 선조실록(동(同) 시대)에 등장하는 타권과 연장선에서 이해 할 필요가 있다. 백타가 태권도경기라면 수박은 태권도를 말한다. 태권도경기와 태권도를 어떻게 같다 할 수 있겠는가?"

Translation: "There is a theory that Subak & Baekta are ambiguously equal, that they are common nouns for barehand martial arts. However, Tagwon described at above is a proper noun (the contents have a unique system of techniques). It should be understood as the extension of Seonjo era's royal Chosun (Korean) journal's Tagwon. If Baekta is Taekwondo sparring, Subak is Taekwondo itself. How can you say Taekwondo competition and Taekwondo are the same?"

Korean Subak Federation claims that Tagwon & Baekta are different from Subak, and they are a competition method based on Subak. In their claim, Subak would use palms only, but Subak would compete using both punches & slaps for Tagwon & Baekta. However, there are explicit old authentic historical records that Subak itself had punches in the game, not as an extension game of Subak. Like many names of sports & activities such as volleyball, curling, baseball, thunderclap, Subak's name meaning clap has no logical necessity nor proof that it should use palm only nor hit side only. Regardless, Korean Subak Federation agrees that Subak uses punches in Tagwon & Baekta which they claim to be a competition method of Subak. Subak slaps front & side (cheeks), but Subak's application Tagwon punches anyway. Also, there are many reputable & old historical records that Subak itself had punches in the game. In any case, Subak population fought using punches in application of Subak. The only difference is whether Subak itself had punches or Subak's application & competition had punches. The difference is whether Subak used fist in Tagwon only or also in general Subak.

Arc swing hits front or side by choice; some people claim that swing has to hit cheek only
Arc swing hits front or side by choice; some people claim that swing has to hit cheek only. That's stupid. There are straight slaps in sports (cause sports can create, add techniques) & also in everyday-life (spanking, swatting). Swing slap also hits front by choice.

Because swing has both the frontal & lateral vectors, swing can hit either front or side (or even halfway frontal in 45 degrees like cheeks or jaws) by choice. For example, some people get hung up on swing-slap hitting front. They claim swing trajectory is banana. Consider half a banana with its tip hitting front & middle. (Whether punch or slap, a swing starts at the side of the body; it doesn't start at the middle of the body, which is why it ends at the middle & front of the body.) Also, curve & circle are not the same; curve doesn't have to be consistent in angle-change. Curve's angle change can be different at a different point of curve, flatter or curvier. There's no such thing as flailing in swing. That's not how a swing is done. Jack Dempsey is a reputable source for arc swing hitting front.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXUqNqgWwAAO2pP.png

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXUpdySWEAAmqLe.png

The swing punching motion starts at Figure 22A (elbow bent, fist loaded at the side of the body), then the swing punching motion ends at Figure 23B (arm fully extended, fist punching front although swing can hit side by choice too).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swing_(boxing)

That's how a swing is done. It hits front unlike hook. Also, there are straight slaps. Also, Subak & Taekkyeon both had straight slaps, frontal swing slaps, punches. Also, the original Breaking/Tameshiwari had nothing to do with striking martial art but only with power circus, power magic show, power performance art. Even powerful strikes were created by trial & error with common sense strikes. After powerful strikes were created, they were taught without starting over at every generation of students. Breaking was practiced by practicing Breaking directly, not by practicing martial art. Breaking/Tameshiwari is not from martial art even when it is used (or can be used) on animals or humans.

Like I said, some people claim that Subak didn't have frontal slap & punch. Some people claim Taekkyeon (Yetbub, Sibak) didn't have frontal slap & punch. Some people claim that Breaking/Tameshiwari is from Japan. Some people claim that Mas Oyama didn't introduce Korean hand strike to Japanese Tameshiwari (shoulder-push & Yong stacking speed, power, mass for frontal hand strike). Some people claim Japanese Breaking/Tameshiwari isn't from Korean power circus. Some people claim Korean didn't have street fighting games other than regular Taekkyeon. Some people claim that Breaking/Tameshiwari is from martial art rather than power circus, power magic. There are lots of different kinds of people with such nonsense. So, I'm trying to spread facts to correct such. These topics I cover have nothing directly to do with Taekwondo. Taekwondo is just 1 topic. I am covering many topics irrelevant to Taekwondo directly. These topics are related to Taekwondo. It's just that these topics I cover have no relation to Taekwondo having lineage to Karate & Gwonbeop. These topics I cover have nothing to do with that side of Taekwondo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bearberserk (talk • contribs) 15:06, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Similarity between North Korean Gyeoksul and Subak
North Korea has a fight game called Kyuksul. According to historical records referred by Mookas martial art magazine, "the earlier contests were about the same as boxing, but in 1987's 7th contest, it evolved to the level of kickboxing."

Gyuksul was originally from Subak. In the new Gyuksul rules & techniques, Gyuksul also resembles Sibak (Korean street fighting games) & Gwonbeop (Muyedobotongji).

Those 3 pictures are Gyuksul moves. There are similar moves in Korean Muyedobotongji Gwonbeop, except that Gwonbub's wild swing with shoulder-push uses vertical fist while Gyuksul uses horizontal fist. Those 3 pictures resemble these two 300 years old Korean Gwonbeop pictures.

North Korean Gyuksul started from Subak. Then it evolved to be like Sibak & Gwonbeop by the influence of Byungin Yoon and his art Gwonbeop taught at YMCA, which became a root of Taekwondo. Byungin Yoon's Gwonbeop (different from Karate) is shown by Cheolheui Park's Pasa-Gwonbeop published when he was young. Byungin Yoon's Gwonbeop influenced both Taekwondo & Gyuksul. North Korean Gyeoksul's punch uses horizontal fist swing punch without fist rotation.