Talk:Subcontrabass flute

Double contrabass flute merge
in the process, the merge seems to have left half the material on the floor; the photo of a double-contra, for a start, the fact they weigh a ton, and the Hogenhuis PVC instruments which are a lot lighter and more practical, and its sound sample external link. Should we add all that back in? — Jon (talk) 11:37, 14 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Sure, add back the other photo. (I just thought it would take up too much space on such a short article). I suppose you can mention that Hogenghuis specifically is the maker of PVC instruments, but most of that section was non-sourced (e.g., broader sound), and the weight is trivia that was derived from comparing two separate flutes from two different makers. I don't care about the external link. Why? I Ask (talk) 13:33, 14 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Fool. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 04:47, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Please don't revert the edits without a good reason. Both types of flutes are known as types of subcontrabass flutes in the literature and the information is too duplicative to have two pages. Why? I Ask (talk) 18:31, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

The double contra-alto flute and the double contrabass flute are different instruments.

 * Double contra-alto flute in G, length: 15 feet
 * Double contrabass flute in C, length: 18 feet

They are different instruments. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 22:10, 23 July 2023 (UTC)


 * They are different instruments. But that is all that can be written about them using reliable sources that they have different ranges and (obviously) different lengths. They are both types of subcontrabass flutes, and there is no need for two articles with basically two sentences swapped. Why? I Ask (talk) 02:25, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

The double contra-alto flute in G (length: 15 feet) and the double contrabass flute in C (length: 18 feet) are different instruments, despite the fact that both have been referred to in some cases as "subcontrabass" flutes (meaning that they are lower than the contrabass). What you're insisting on doing would be akin to having a single article for "very, very low saxophones" when it's clear that separate articles are needed each of the various sizes of saxophone lower than the bass. When you blanked the page again and again, a lot more was lost than a sentence or two, the photo of the double contrabass flute was also lost. Keeping the above in mind, please edit in a sensible manner, which doesn't deplete our content. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 02:46, 24 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Then add back the photo of the double contrabass flute and add back what was lost. (I was very careful to make sure all relevant information was included. The price of a new one and the fact that Kingma is working on a new model are not relevant or sourced.) And unlike the subcontrabass flutes, the low saxophones actually have repertoire and history based in reliable sources and have been standardized for over a century. The subcontrabass flute is relatively new and unstandardized, so many of the terms are not fully used by all reliable sources available. Many sources blanket it under the term subcontrabass flute in G and subcontrabass flute in C (e.g., Maclagen p. 332 and Toff p. 74). Because that is what they are. Tell me what more than the ranges can be used to differentiate them using reliable sources. Any prominent repertoire that uses one over the other? Why? I Ask (talk) 03:43, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

You don't seem to know much, yet edit in an uninformed and aggressive manner. Please stop. Yes, both the subcontrabass (double contra-alto) flute in G and double contrabass flute in C are used in flute choirs around the world, and, like any other two instruments of different range, have different parts notated in the scores and parts. Eva Kingma's newly developed double contrabass flute will be presented this week at the NFA convention in Arizona; it took her years to develop. She already had a subcontrabass flute for sale years ago. According to your logic, all the work she just invested in developing a double contrabass flute (in C) was imaginary, because it's the same instrument as the subcontrabass flute (in G, 3 feet shorter in length) is the same instrument. Please do the right thing and restore the double contrabass flute page (and all its content) promptly. It's not my job, or the job of any other Wikipedian, to undo your errors. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 15:18, 24 July 2023 (UTC)


 * When I have ever said that they are the same instrument? I said that they are both subcontrabass flutes, and that having two stubs with the same sourcing and basic outline save for the ranges is unhelpful. Your ad hominem and complete misrepresentation of my editing (saying that I am blanking the pages or that I do not understand that they are two separate instruments) means that I don't have much of an inclination to keep arguing with you. I have provided my sources that call both these instruments subcontrabass flute and clearly delineate the two in the articles. This is a non-issue. Why? I Ask (talk) 16:39, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Touching back on this since you failed to respond, you still keep saying that I fail to recognize that these are two different instruments. I really do not appreciate how you fail to engage in this discussion and are resorting to misrepresenting what this edit spat is about. You say that they are two different instruments, and I agree... that are both called "subcontrabass flutes". To keep arguing in the edit summaries that I do not get that is unproductive. Can you explain why you feel the need to split the pages? What information in particular is lost? Why? I Ask (talk) 05:19, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

The double contra-alto flute in G (length: 15 feet) and the double contrabass flute in C (length: 18 feet) are different instruments and, like the members of any other musical instrument family, each of these distinct instruments merits its own article. The larger of the two instruments is properly known as "double contrabass flute," even if it is sometimes also called "octobass flute" or "subcontrabass flute." The latter term is generally avoided because it more commonly refers to the former instrument (the one pitched in G, which measures 15 feet in length). Now that that's settled, please move on to editing articles in which you have greater knowledge and expertise. Thanks. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 22:38, 26 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The latter term is avoided? By whom? The sources used in this article beg to differ. I also find it problematic to act like this is a settled matter and telling me to move on to articles I have more expertise in. You still haven't followed up on my question. Why do these instruments need to be separated? The article clearly separates the two in big, bold font. What reliably-sourced information is lost? Why? I Ask (talk) 00:04, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Someone blanked the page again.
Someone blanked the double contrabass flute page again: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Subcontrabass_flute&diff=1166839976&oldid=1166809867 173.88.246.138 (talk) 02:44, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

And again: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Subcontrabass_flute&diff=next&oldid=1166992163 173.88.246.138 (talk) 22:39, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Again: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Subcontrabass_flute&diff=1167302810&oldid=1167296342 173.88.246.138 (talk) 03:26, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Merge proposal
You can read some of my reasoning above more indepth, but basically both instruments are known as subcontrabass flutes in reliable sources and there is minimal information that separates the subcontrabass flutes in G (the double contra-alto) and C (the double contrabass). Here are the pages combined as a mock up. Pinging Jonathanischoice for his thoughts as he previously commented on my merge. Why? I Ask (talk) 04:42, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Support; a very reasonsable proposal, given short text and context. Klbrain (talk) 18:03, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
 * The subcontrabass flute and double contrabass flute are different musical instruments: in different keys and different sizes, just as the baritone saxophone and bass saxophone are different instruments. As such, it would be wrong and unencyclopedic to merge the articles about these two different instruments. 76.190.213.189 (talk) 00:22, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Double contra-alto flute in G, length: 15 feet
 * Double contrabass flute in C, length: 18 feet
 * 76.190.213.189 (talk) 00:25, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
 * The difference is that the bass and baritone saxes have heaps of solo and ensemble repertoire written for them. Individuals have held each as their instrument of choice (e.g., Gerry Mulligan or Adrian Rollini). In contrast, there are probably less than 100 individual subcontrabass flutes, meaning that the article cannot actually write about the importance of individual players or their repertoire. As such, the only thing differentiating the two instruments is their key corresponding range. Those facts alone are not necessarily worthy of maintaining two separate pages that are exactly alike except for a letter (G versus C) and a .png in the infobox. Why? I Ask (talk) 03:00, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Please edit in an informed and productive manner. The subcontrabass flute (double contra-alto flute in G) and double contrabass flute in C are different instruments, just as the baritone and bass saxophone are different instruments, and the double contrabass flute is not a subcontrabass flute; the subcontrabass flute is the size between the contrabass flute (in C) and the double contrabass flute (also in C, an octave lower). 76.190.213.189 (talk) 20:20, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Support for what it's worth; I've only just noticed that I hadn't added this here at the time (I thought I had?!) The instruments are still very rare, only just notable, and cite-able sources are very thin on the ground (see below). — Jon (talk) 22:57, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Support for what it's worth; I've only just noticed that I hadn't added this here at the time (I thought I had?!) The instruments are still very rare, only just notable, and cite-able sources are very thin on the ground (see below). — Jon (talk) 22:57, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Post-merge vandalism
This article is now protected from anonymous edits. For what it's worth, nobody here is claiming these aren't two separate instruments; the reason for the merge is the tiny amount of material we have to go on that qualifies as WP:RS, at least one of which groups these instruments together under one umbrella term. They only just qualify as notable enough, considering only a very small number of these instruments have ever been built, their very recent provenance, and therefore their lack of historical repertoire, literature coverage, and almost non-existence in museums. The less said about the hyperbass flute the better; I technically have a hyperbass flute attached to the gutters on my house, but that's a matter for a different article. — Jon (talk) 03:12, 26 February 2024 (UTC)


 * A quick non-exhaustive survey of WP:RS for the flutes variously named subcontrabass, subcontra-alto, double contrabass, octocontrabass, etc.
 * ❧ The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians makes no mention of them specifically, only mentioning that composer Robert Dick experimented with larger sizes "including the bass and contrabass" and that "he worked closely with the innovative Dutch flutemaker Eva Kingma".
 * ❧ MGG Online (Die Musik in Geschichte und Gegenwart) does not mention them.
 * ❧ Many standard texts don't mention them due to their relatively recent invention; e.g. Baines (1977).
 * ❧ Maclagan (2009) states of the "Subcontrabass flute in C" that it was developed "in the latter part of the 20th century. It is too soon to say whether it will become a commonly played instrument"; it is difficult to play due to the volume of air required, the delay of attack, and limited sound projection (which calls for amplification); it is occasionally found in recordings and flute choirs, but is not a regular part in bands or orchestras. The entry for the "Subcontr'alto flute in G" is more or less verbatim apart from the obvious change in key, and smaller dimensions of tubing length (3.30 m vs 5.12 m) and height (2.05 m vs 2.23 m). Both entries claim a three octave range (C₁–C₄ and G₁–G₄ respectively).
 * ❧ It's okay to use primary sources like manufacturer websites for basic factual information like dimensions, key, construction materials and methods, etc.
 * ❧ American flutist and composer Paige Dashner Long and the Florida Flute Orchestra appeared in a news clip on Fox 35 Orlando, featuring her Kingma subcontrabass and Kotato & Fukushima double contrabass flutes. At the time of broadcast in 2009, only seven instruments in total had ever been built by the two makers.
 * ❧ Eva Kingma presented her double contrabass flute at the Phoenix NFC in 2023; there is a four-page spread about it in the November 2023 issue of Pan.
 * ❧ Peter Sheridan commissioned pieces for contrabass, subcontrabass, and hyperbass flutes on his 2013 recording, Dialogues and Monologues and on the 2016 Monash University Flute Ensemble recording, Labyrinths of Lowness.
 * — Jon (talk) 21:50, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
 * The second edition of the Dictionary for Flautists has a listing of the flute family in Appendix 6. It lists all of the low ones from F (sub-contralto made by Kotato & Fukushima), G (sub-contralto), to C (double-contra) under the blanket term of subcontrabass. It also lists the book Die Familie Der Querflöte Von Piccolo Bis Subkontrabass (The Flute Family From Piccolo to Subcontrabass) by Peter Thalheimer as the resource that they pulled much from. Unfortunately it is an untranslated-German print book, so I cannot do much with it. Why? I Ask (talk) 02:49, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I have only Klienedeutsche but even so WorldCat tells me the nearest library is 13,700 km away. — Jon (talk) 03:53, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Restore Double contrabass flute article
The term "subcontrabass flute" (also known as the double contra-alto flute since it's an octave lower than the contra-alto flute) refers only to the size of flute (in G or F) that's just below the contrabass flute in C. The one that's an octave below the contrabass flute is called the double contrabass flute and is as distinct from the subcontrabass as, for example, the baritone saxophone is from the bass saxophone. It doesn't matter that these sizes are relatively rare, our readers deserve to have separate articles for separate instruments. The double contrabass flute is not a "subcontrabass flute" because that's the size smaller than the double contrabass flute (and the two instruments are fully 3 feet different in length). As such, please restore the double contrabass flute article. 98.123.38.211 (talk) 23:01, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Done (also restored blanked text). Please contribute to Wikipedia in a manner that enhances rather than depletes our content going forward, thanks. 98.123.38.211 (talk) 23:04, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * As of March 10, 2024 the Double contrabass flute article has been entirely blanked once again. Please restore it. 98.123.38.211 (talk) 20:02, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Please provide a reliable source that states, categorically as you do, that the term subcontrabass flute refers only to the G or F flute below the C contrabass. Even if you provide one, Kotato & Fukushima's own online catalogue presents models they call "subcontrabass in F" and "subcontrabass flute" (in low C), contradicting your assertion. Most of the very few resources I could find (see above) use subcontrabass for both, if they are mentioned at all, and Maclagan's dictionary lists the double contrabass in C as "Subcontrabass flute in C", which also contradicts your assertion. And please stop banging on about how they are different instruments, WE ALL UNDERSTAND they are different instruments. The issue here is whether they are separately noteable or even different enough to warrant separate articles. These instruments are still extremely rare, and only a few tens of instruments have ever been made. Note that just because one knows a thing as a practicing professional, doesn't always mean it belongs on Wikipedia just because one says so. It's not our job as editors to do original research, only to summarise and synthesise the body of documentary coverage that already exists. A similar compromise had to be made for the contrabass trombone article when getting it up to WP:GA, which describes essentially two different instruments; the modern single-slide German instrument in F that emerged in the 1960s displaced the cumbersome and generally unsatisfactory low B♭ double-slide instrument that Wagner conceived for The Ring, but is still manufactured and used. For this article there is scant material to cite. One thing I'd like to do is get a photograph taken, or released, or make a diagram, showing the family of Boehm flutes from picc to double contra. It would be nice to see if K&F might release this one with a compatible license for Commons. — Jon (talk) 04:09, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Please restore blanked text
Please restore the text that was recently blanked from the Double contrabass flute article, and refrain from editing Wikipedia in a manner that depletes and damages our content. 98.123.38.211 (talk) 19:59, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The subcontrabass flute and double contrabass flute articles are protected from anonymous IP edits because of your repeated vandalism and unwillingness to participate meaningfully in the discussion that took place last year. You keep repeating the same thing and yet never respond to any of the reasoning given. — Jon (talk) 23:55, 10 March 2024 (UTC)