Talk:Subdivisions of Egypt/Archive 1

Africa Destubathon
I destubbed this article during Africa Destubathon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Eloquent Peasant (talk • contribs) October 20, 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 17 January 2014

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move Armbrust The Homunculus 18:23, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Subdivisions of Egypt → Administrative divisions of Egypt – per other similarly named articles. Relisted Armbrust The Homunculus 12:55, 24 January 2014 (UTC) 213.246.84.199 (talk) 14:43, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.


 * Really? Most of the articles at Category:Country subdivisions of Africa are titled "Subdivisions of ..."  —  AjaxSmack   01:53, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, then, these "Subdivisions of..." articles should also be renamed "Administrative divisions of...", as the former doesn't indicate what type of divisions are involved. 213.246.92.65 (talk) 10:01, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Perhaps. But that would be quite a large undertaking and not all subdivisions are administrative divisions (e.g., Ceremonial counties of England, Counties of Rhode Island).  On the flip side, what other subdivisions are there of countries than these; i.e., what is the possible confusion in calling articles "Subdivisions of ..." ? —  AjaxSmack   16:48, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, I can imagine (sub)divisions according to ethnicity, religion, income, etc, etc, i.e. things not necessarily administrative or geographical. 213.246.92.65 (talk) 13:58, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I suppose the term could be used to denote such categories but I've not seen it widely used (usually just the word "division" plus the subject area is used as in "socio-economic divisions", "religious divisions"). I've never seen it used for a Wikipedia article title; see All pages starting with "Subdivisions of" or this Google search result. —  AjaxSmack   19:55, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I suppose it depends on context. As with "socio-economic divisions", "religious divisions", etc, "administrative divisions" is less potentially ambiguous. 213.246.85.251 (talk) 15:58, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Second-Tier (markaze and kism) sourcing
The only source I found is from here:  This source is work from CAPMAS. I will try to search it myself but maybe someone more familiar with Arabic can help me.

I'm trying to find a second source the following statements found on STATOIDS.COM

At the second-tier are markazes or kisms, "markazes if they are rural and kisms if more urban. As of 2013, there were 371 subdivisions, of which 177 were kisms, 162 markazes, 9 new cities, 3 police-administered areas, and 20 unorganized areas." So the city of Tanta is a markaze, considered more rural but Tanta 1 and Tanta 2 are kisms (more urban).

Thank you. Level C (talk) 16:30, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Deleted list of second-tier
On Nov. 2nd you deleted a list with 371 items from this article.
 * I would like for you not to delete the list in second-tier. You deleted them before without discussing it, and I had to add them back.
 * I would like for you not to convert the list into a table with populations. On your talkpage you said you will make a table and add populations. I disagree with doing this. Tables are overwhelming on a page.
 * If you would like to create a a new article of Second-tier ("markaz") go right ahead and add a table with populations there. This would make sense, just like Governorates section in this article doesn't have populations. Populations shows in the main Governorates article.

I'd like other people to be involved in this discussion. Level C (talk) 01:16, 3 November 2016 (UTC)


 * I apologized for removing the list, I have no intention of doing so again. If you disagree with turning the list into a table then I'm fine with getting a second-opinion. I might however change the spelling of the names for the sake of uniformity. Turnopoems (talk) 19:44, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Change names of Second-Tier places
Okay. I agree. I say go for it. From what you wrote in the other article, it sounds like you have an idea of how to go about it. How would you respell the following?
 * Al-Mansurah 1 (k)
 * Al-Mansurah 2 (k)
 * Al-Manzilah (m)

Al --> becomes El? Isn't El the old way of writing it? I don't know but I read that somewhere.


 * No worries, I'll get on it. It's not really about old or new, there's no uniform way of writing them and most newspapers and maps don't use standard Arabic transliteration rules for Egyptian names due to the different pronunciation. Writing it as "El" is the most common method I've come across (and my preferred one, personally). I will transliterate them so that they are uniform with cities and areas mentioned elsewhere on Wikipedia that carry the same name. Turnopoems (talk) 12:13, 5 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks.Level C (talk) 13:38, 7 November 2016 (UTC)


 * I understand you're respelling some of the names but I don't think you should delete anything from the list. You deleted the "unorganized sections" but I would like for the total to equal 371.  This is based on sourced material.  Can you add those items you deleted back to the list, so that it is a complete list based on the source. Level C (talk) 04:36, 8 November 2016 (UTC)


 * I only deleted the "unorganized" as they didn't make much sense. There is no actual area referred to as "unorganized", so what does it mean? It seems like it's referring to something on a specific map.Turnopoems (talk) 10:19, 8 November 2016 (UTC)


 * I did remove the unorganized areas from the listed second-level divisions and simply included a sentence saying "unorganized areas exist in several governorates" because I went back to the statoids source and the author, researcher stated he just listed them in order to account for all the area of Egypt, but it was arbitrary and not an official second-level division. Thank you.--the eloquent peasant (talk) 03:17, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Can start listing here any Third-level (district, village) as we find them

 * Toriel in Mansoura


 * Shobra Bas (in Minufiya)
 * Munshat Sultan (in Minufiya)
 * Singirg (in Minufiya)
 * Kom Ashken (in Baheira)
 * Mit Halfa (in Baheira)
 * El Alougy (in Sharkia)
 * Bordien (in Sharkia)
 * Ghietah (in Sharkia)
 * Kahk (in Fayoum)

(These are found on a report called The Basic Village Services: Evaluation 1982 - Sites Visited and analyzed by USAID in 1982.) I spelled them here as they're spelled on the report, only for the sake of speed.

Level C (talk) 13:26, 7 November 2016 (UTC)


 * I really don't think we should list villages, there are thousands of them. The list would be a complete mess. Turnopoems (talk) 11:06, 8 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Of course! Have a nice day. Thanks for fixing all those names!Level C (talk) 14:45, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

2nd-tier deleted list items with the name "unorganized..."
On your edit where you deleted items from the list you stated "confusing". It might be confusing, but it is correct.

"(cur | prev) 14:31, 5 November 2016‎ Turnopoems (talk | contribs)‎ . . (11,598 bytes) (-888)‎ . . (→‎Second-level (markaz, qism): Fixed spelling, removed "unorganized" (confusing, seems like its referring to locations on a map or something). Will continue with edits shortly) (undo | thank)"

The reason those items are on that list is because it is part of a Census data complete list of of 371 items (2nd-tier). The source statoids.com states 371. Just because an official name has not been assigned to the area yet doesn't mean the area doesn't exist. It does exist and should be included in the list. ThanksLevel C (talk) 04:43, 8 November 2016 (UTC)


 * I did remove the unorganized areas from the listed second-level divisions and simply included a sentence saying "unorganized areas exist in several governorates" because I went back to the statoids source and the author, researcher stated he just listed them in order to account for all the area of Egypt, but it was arbitrary and not an official second-level division. Thank you.--the eloquent peasant (talk) 03:17, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Just for the record
I think it's good to have a record of original spelling (census) and respelled by "Place names are officially written in Arabic script. City names, and governorate names derived from city names, may be translated, but in general, names must be transliterated or transcribed into the Roman alphabet. There are many possible methods of transliteration...The initial elements Ad, Al, As, Ash, At, and Az are articles. Sometimes, especially in older sources, they are spelled Ed, El, Es, and so on. Sometimes they are connected to the following word with hyphens. A few sources omit the hyphen, entirely." (Administrative Subdivisions of Countries by Gwillim Law, McFarland & Company, Inc., Publishers, page 113)

has used the Anglicized variant of the name: Versions of the names that might be more comfortable for English speakers.Level C (talk) 15:16, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Note: The duplicate "North Coast" has different populations and different codes. see HASC code is different, and population is different.
 * 371 item list. This table shows before and after updated spelling of names.

See explanation for HASC code in author's book / paper

North Coast	EG.IK.NC	k	2,554	0	As-Sāḥal ash-Shamāli

North Coast	EG.MT.NC	k	536	0	As-Sāḥal ash-Shamāli

So they are two different elements. Leaving on list, twice, as is. Level C (talk) 18:32, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Arabic article does not match this article
The Arabic labels between "Subdivisions of Egypt" and "Economic Regions of Egypt" (controlled using WIKIDATA) are incorrect. They should be reversed. I fixed them in November but someone changed them back on December 25th, so I'm leaving them alone but they are incorrect.Level C (talk) 12:00, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Template: Egypt
Thanks for creating the List of Cities template but I'm not sure I agree that the List of Cities template should be added to this article. This page is about administrative divisions and a list of cities could confuse a reader. --the eloquent peasant (talk) 23:52, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Also have you seen these existing templates? https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=Cities+of+egypt&title=Special%3ASearch&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&advancedSearch-current=%7B%22namespaces%22%3A%5B10%5D%7D&ns10=1 --the eloquent peasant (talk) 01:05, 26 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Hi, yes the article is discussing municipal division, but there is already a link to “list of cities” in “see also” section. I think it’s not confusing to the reader since the template is already categorized by governorates. Regarding the template itself, I checked all pre-made templates and I found that “Cities of Egypt” is the first template to include all cities not just the populous one. The template I created using a featured article from Arabic Wikipedia “قائمة مدن مصر". Brainist (talk) 07:44, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
 * So one more question 'cause this is a really nice template. Where would I find an English or Arabic source saying there are 248 cities in Egypt as seen in the arabic article - https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%82%D8%A7%D8%A6%D9%85%D8%A9_%D9%85%D8%AF%D9%86_%D9%85%D8%B5%D8%B1  ? (250 is what I counted on your template in the very wee hours of the morning with just one zip of coffee). I would love to see definite references on the number of cities. I would not want to base this on an Arabic wikipedia article, even it was a featured article. Also, what about the issue of towns? Are towns in the template. It becomes a mess quickly.
 * Regarding cities: Wouldn't it be better to simply list the cities and towns under each individual governorate's wikiarticle? This way the info can be easily referenced and updated, in the eventuality of all that happening. Thank you for your time. the eloquent peasant (talk) 12:00, 26 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Regarding subdivisions: If you see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subdivisions_of_Egypt#Municipal_divisions there are 351 subdivisions (provinces, regions, municipal subdivisions, etc.) not counting the unorganized areas that some governoreates have. This info on this article here came from the website of the author of Administrative Subdivisions of Countries by Gwillim Law - a book I have in my hand. 351 subdivisions on this article doesn't agree with the Arabic article count of 185 "centers", but we have to start somewhere. Gwillim's book / website separates the subdivisions (provinces) into markaz and kism when they share a name, maybe that's where the discrepancy comes from. Digial online maps tend to split them up into marka and kism as well.https://www.citypopulation.de/Egypt-Cities.html   --
 * An editor in 2006 stated Egypt had 353 markazes or departments he called them. the eloquent peasant (talk) 01:47, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Third-level subdivisions
According to CAPMAS datasets, the third level rural subdivision is village قرية and the third level urban subdivision is shiyakha شياخة.

Region منطقة (plural: مناطق), sometimes called Economic Region, are above the first level groupings. District حي (plural: أحياء), come in bigger cities between the second and third level rural. Both are not part of the three level administrative divisions of Egypt.

Gharbeia (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:52, 15 February 2019 (UTC)