Talk:Substantial

Contested deletion
This article should not be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance because... Substantial is a renowned artist. His music has been featured on the anime TV series Samurai Champloo, after a collaboration with Japanese producer Nujabes. Substantial's album To This Union a Sun Was Born was a Top-10 hit on the Japanese music charts. --TheKillingNoise (talk) 21:15, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Nominated for regular AfD, and your removal of the AfD notice is improper. Collect (talk) 14:27, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

"Substantial" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Substantial&redirect=no Substantial] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. – robertsky (talk) 15:01, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 3 June 2024

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Rough consensus to move (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 05:59, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Substantial (rapper) → Substantial – No other topic with this name.&#32;Mia Mahey (talk) 22:21, 1 June 2024 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). SilverLocust 💬 21:19, 3 June 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 22:49, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Note: The comments from before 21:19, 3 June 2024 (UTC) are copied from the contested technical request. To provide a visual cue, I have made them dark grey. SilverLocust 💬 21:19, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * , contesting because 'substantial' is more commonly used as a word than as a name. – robertsky (talk) 04:49, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * though I know the dimensions you're coming at. Searches of substantial yields many words accord meaning that @Robertsky is right for words than the rapper. The better redirect is to substance and the rappers article left as it is. Safari Scribe Edits! Talk! 08:22, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Justified primary redirect. 162 etc. (talk) 18:33, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose; I agree with Robertsky and Safari Scribe; "substantial" is used far more often as an adjective (meaning "has a lot of substance to it") than it's used as a proper noun for this one rapper. Substantial therefore should be a redirect to Substance, which if it's found necessary, should then have a hatnote to Substantial (rapper). 𝔏𝔲𝔫𝔞𝔪𝔞𝔫𝔫🌙🌙🌙 𝔗𝔥𝔢 𝔐𝔬𝔬𝔬𝔬𝔬𝔫𝔦𝔢𝔰𝔱 (talk) 16:02, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Since the base name already redirects to the rapper, and has done so for more than 10 years, this request shouldn't be opposed. It is a procedural move from a disambiguated title to a primary base name. FWIW I also do think the status quo is 100% correct. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a dictionary, and redirecting "Substantial" to "Substance" is just absurd. They don't even mean the same thing. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 16:05, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * FWIW, I'm fairly certain that's a case of WP:UPPERCASE; WP:NOTDICT is talking about how articles shouldn't merely be a definition of a word, and it specifically states in the 'minor differences between Wikipedia and Wiktionary' section, quote, Per Wikipedia:Article titles § Use nouns adjectives are usually redirected to nouns or are disambiguation pages or simply do not exist. This, as I stated, would be a case of an adjective being redirected to its noun.Either way, with three people so far contesting this move, I think it's left "procedural" at this point and moved to "this should be discussed on the talk page" as per the guidelines at the top of the page. @Mia Mahey Would you do the honors of moving this there, please? 𝔏𝔲𝔫𝔞𝔪𝔞𝔫𝔫🌙🌙🌙 𝔗𝔥𝔢 𝔐𝔬𝔬𝔬𝔬𝔬𝔫𝔦𝔢𝔰𝔱 (talk) 16:14, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry to be blunt, but that's nonsense. This is a technical/procedural request to simply move the article to its correct location given Wikipedia's article title policy, and there's no reason for it to be contested in such a fashion. Also, substance is not the "noun form" of substantial. They are separate words, which are both ultimately derived from the Latin term substantia, but they aren't directly connected in English. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 16:20, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Amakuru ...I'll be blunt right back, that's nonsense. If a technical request to move the article to a different location should never be opposed, why, exactly, is there an entire section on the page down here FOR contested technical moves, AND instructions on this page for what to do if your technical move request gets contested? (As I've already mentioned, said instructions are to move the request over to the page's Talk page, using the Discuss button on the request template.)The fact of the matter is, this HAS been contested; therefore, as per the instructions on this page, this needs to be moved to the Talk page and discussed. Clearly you feel that the move should be carried out; I recommend arguing for that when it's moved to the talk page. 𝔏𝔲𝔫𝔞𝔪𝔞𝔫𝔫🌙🌙🌙 𝔗𝔥𝔢 𝔐𝔬𝔬𝔬𝔬𝔬𝔫𝔦𝔢𝔰𝔱 (talk) 16:25, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Your basis for contesting the move doesn't make sense though. This request here isn't about arguing the rights and wrongs of the case, it's simply to move the article to the base name because it has been incorrectly placed for the past ten years, given that the rapper was established as primary topic, based on the rules of disambiguation. It's a purely procedural request. Discussions on the rights and wrongs of the situation can follow, but the status quo right now is that the rapper is the primary topic. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 16:35, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I... don't understand what you're saying here?? If I've got you right, you're saying that because the issue that I, Robertsky, and Safari Scribe have with the discussion isn't something technical, but is something along the lines of "wait no, the redirect this is being moved to shouldn't be targeting the rapper's page after all and has been, in fact, pointing to the wrong target for the past ten years", what should happen is that the requested move should be played out, and then someone gets to say "hey wait no go back", and THEN and only THEN we can have a proper discussion????That seems... needlessly convoluted. Shouldn't it instead be properly discussed at this juncture? And if that's "wrong" because "that's not Proper Procedure, it's cutting corners"... I say we should cut the corners. 𝔏𝔲𝔫𝔞𝔪𝔞𝔫𝔫🌙🌙🌙 𝔗𝔥𝔢 𝔐𝔬𝔬𝔬𝔬𝔬𝔫𝔦𝔢𝔰𝔱 (talk) 16:43, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Alright fine, I'll withdraw my point and sorry if I was rude to you. We can proceed with the RM as you suggest. Incidentally, I've had a search and there are actually quite a few topics which aren't directly named Substantial but have it as a prominent part of the name. See User:Amakuru/Sandbox for a list... I would be a lot less opposed to this if we made that list of pages the disambiguation page at Substantial, rather than the redirect to Susbtance. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 16:54, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I am agreeable to have the dab page take the place of the base name. – robertsky (talk) 16:57, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * It's quite all right. Incidentally, I do feel that we should wait until the discussion is moved to talk:Substantial (rapper) to get into the weeds about discussing what to actually do beyond 'hey we need to talk about this'-- I'm not entirely certain all of what we say here will actually be taken with us to the discussion there?? I do have something to say about that list but will hold off on actually getting into it until that point. 𝔏𝔲𝔫𝔞𝔪𝔞𝔫𝔫🌙🌙🌙 𝔗𝔥𝔢 𝔐𝔬𝔬𝔬𝔬𝔬𝔫𝔦𝔢𝔰𝔱 (talk) 18:57, 3 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose and create dabpage at basename. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:09, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose Not convinced the rapper is the primary topic here. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 15:27, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose (coming from WP:RFD) - The WP:PTOPIC for Substantial is the simple English word. Fieari (talk) 06:05, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support as the rapper is the only topic covered in Wikipedia with this title, so disambiguation is unwarranted and should exist at the base name per WP:QUALIFIER policy. The term's use as an adjective may be more common, but WP:NOTDICT. Mdewman6 (talk) 21:06, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support per User:Mdewman6. There's nothing to disambiguate here. - Eureka Lott 01:47, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support per Mdewman6. We don't have an article on Wikipedia about the concept of something being substantial, and the DAB at Substance shows this rapper as the only topic to be known as "Substantial". I don't find it plausible that many users are searching "Substantial" and seeking matter, chemical substance, or any of the other articles linked from the DAB. For the few who do, a hatnote should be sufficient. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 16:42, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support per Mdewman6. One understands the gut instinct that this is going to be the primary hit when you type 'substantial' into Wikipedia seems 'weird' somehow – as Presidentman said, I think most would have the sense that the rapper "isn't the primary topic here" – but disambiguation isn't a tool to 'demote'. It's not like it's some loophole in the site rules which is creating an artificial situation here, it seems there is nothing else (no movie, book, tv series, etc.? really?) which has ever also used this title and reached a standard of relevance to merit a Wikipedia article. Since Wikipedia isn't a dictionary, the word "substantial" in and of itself (the primary topic, presumably) doesn't automatically merit an article, and so the situation resolves to the requested move as the natural solution. --AVNOJ1989 (talk) 23:37, 10 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Support There is no article for the word, which makes the rapper the primary topic. For the word, a hatnote leading to Substance should be sufficient for disambiguation. --MtPenguinMonster (talk) 04:39, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

More Arknights songs info
Substantial did two more songs while working with Hypergryph: - Loyal to the Beat(where he basically becomes VA for character named Emperor) - ManiFesto: 62.122.1.212 (talk) 12:07, 15 July 2024 (UTC)