Talk:Sultanate of Sulu/Archive 1

A little more cleaning
I cleaned this article just a little more. There are some issues that I found. The part mentioning the exclusion of Sulu and Mindanao, I can't verify. An online version of the Treaty of Paris (1898) gives cooridinates... Joemaza 08:13, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * If one does an analysis of the coordinates given in the text using a map, they actually correspond roughly to the territory that the present Philippine Republic occupies — including the Sulu archipelago, and Mindanao and its outlying islands.
 * Areas included (if the exact text of the treaty is strictly interpreted) in the territory Spain ceded to the US in 1898:
 * the northern part of the Kawio Islands (not disputed with Indonesia)
 * Palmas/Miangas Islands (disputed between former colonizers United States and Netherlands, but settlement was reached)
 * the part of the disputed Spratly Archipelago that lies between 7 degrees 35 minutes to 10 degrees N latitude and from 116 degrees E longitude eastward, i.e. Bombay Shoal, Boxall Shoal, Half-Moon Shoal, Investigator Northeast Shoal, Royal Captain Shoal and Sabina Shoal (all of which are currently unoccupied but largely under control of the Philippine Navy and Air Force).
 * Areas under Philippine jurisdiction today but not explicitly included (if the exact text of the treaty is strictly interpreted) in the territory Spain ceded to the US in 1898, although were bought by the U.S. later:
 * Turtle Islands (part of Tawi-Tawi province)
 * Cagayan de Tawi-Tawi/Mapun Island (part of Tawi-Tawi province)
 * Also note that in the text of the treaty there is no mention of Luzon, Visayas, Sulu or Mindanao whatsoever. dirrtychristian 06:39, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe this is sufficient reason to remove the 'disputed' tag over that part of the article. -- Dakilang Isagani 00:53, 13 February 2007 (UTC)


 * DepEd is currently correcting the Philippine Historical records to include the new proofs that surfaced proving that Spain gave up Luzon and Visayas to the US. One of this new proof was Emilio Aguinaldo's words (and the KKK declaration) that they are fighting for Luzon and Visayas and considers Mindanao an ally and independent state. They also further stated in this newly surfaced document that the "Philippines" is composed of Luzon and Visayas only according to Emilio Aguinaldo himself and the United States. Mindanao was later annexed after Manuel Quezon's plan was executed - fill Mindanao with Filipinos and make a declaration that the Philippines is composed of Luzon, Visayas, and Mindanao. Which was successful as we can see today. Emilio Aguinaldo and the United States never agreed on Manual Quezon's plans, but they both chose to stay away from it.

-
 * The current version givens the history of Sabah in great detail, but very little of the history of the Sulu Sultanate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

This should be about the Sultanate, not the dispute or the line
The article should take a wider view of history (what happened during the time of the sultanate, relationship with neighboring states, was there war, etc.) rather than disproportionately discuss about the dispute of succession and sovereignty claim. The issue of sovereignty claim is already handled by Sabah dispute. __earth (Talk) 02:32, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

[snip screed]

I would not say this opinion to be intelligent in any way. Your try to rewrite and ignore the recorded history fails. The story of Mr Arpa is full of lies anybody can discover very easily who tries to verify it. I wonder that modern people seem to be unable to make use of a book-encyclopedia, beside wikipedia. Why don`t you come to Sulu and discuss the claim with the Governor and the reigning Sultan? But, with that story of Mr Arpa, no one will listen to you. About the Sultan (talk) 13:33, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Wrong Map
The map is not only small (can hardly be seen), but despite it's size, you can see clearly that the area shaded to imply the Sulu sultanate realm at the height of its sultanate covers all of the now Sabah.

This is clearly wrong because the area that is ceded to Sulu sultanate by the Brunei kingdom is from Kimanis (somewhere northwest of Sabah up til Tapean Durian (Tapian Durian - in now Kalimantan), not all of now Sabah!

So do the Phillipines want to engage with the Indonesian on this dispute as well?

--Danazach (talk) 10:30, 26 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The Sulu Sultanate is cordially also exhorting Indonesia on the Sulu territory of Kalimantan as it was already a territory given to the Sulu Sultanate founder-Sultan Sharif Ul-hashim (Abu'Bkr Mohamad Shah) by his father-in-law, Raja Baginda Ali; the latter who fathered Paduka Batara (the 1417 Eastern King) prior to the establishment of the Sulu Sultanate. Evident of the Sulu Sultanate National Flag (Door to Mecca) already having had flown in Kalimantan and called as the "Gate to Mecca" as far back as the 1400's hundredths. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.54.47.53 (talk) 11:24, 21 December 2010 (UTC)


 * We'll try to resolve this issue as soon as possible.--&mdash; JL 09  talkcontribs   11:34, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

File:Greaterarmsofsulu.jpg Nominated for Deletion
I vote to keep it. See my discussion comments, below. May be, a new article can be created, containing all flags that appeared in the Sultanates history and that were used by recognized pretenders. Would be nice... About the Sultan (talk) 12:22, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
 * This is not the place to discuss this. See Commons:Deletion requests/File:Greaterarmsofsulu.jpg. And also, do note that the real debate is not the authenticity and/or value of the arms but rather if RDAndrew has the right to release it for public use. Moray An Par (talk) 12:50, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Wooops... Sorry! Thanks! About the Sultan (talk) 14:29, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Page protection
Thanks to an edit war across several articles, I have protected them for a short while. Use the talk pages to work out what they should actually say when the protection expires. Thanks. -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:26, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Proposed merger
List of sultans of Sulu was originally branched off from this article. It has no citations, and seems heavily biased to support the claims of Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram as "de facto" Sultan. Some of the facts in the "History" section and the list itself (up through 1917 at least) may be worth including here in this article, if they can be supported by citations. But I do not see the reason for a separate list page. --Brian Z (talk) 02:02, 24 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep: Merging the two articles would delete a long (probably) irreplaceable list of data. This particular page version, made by yours truly, tries to make the page NPOV as possible. Anyway, the current version as of press time doesn't seem biased to me - as the de facto (the practically honored) sultans and the de jure (legally legitimate) sultan are listed. Since there had been some confusion on the "de facto" and "de jure" designations, I guess this version is much acceptable. Trust me, it&#39;s notable (talk) 07:02, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think I understand the first sentence here... what exactly would be lost and "irreplaceable"? (talk) 14:51, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to remove the merger tag, but will consider working in some "main article" tags that more clearly connect the two articles. --Brian Z (talk) 18:38, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Claimants
If Sultan Fuad Kiram is added to the site, keep in mind that he is the former emissary of Sultan Jamalul Kiram III and Esmail Kiram II. Read the article by CBN News - Asian Terror: Christians, Muslims Counter Hatred with Love - “Datu Fuad Kiram, emissary to the king of Sulu, said, "For all the shortcomings of our Muslim race to our Christian brothers, we also ask for forgiveness." In the gallery of the Sultanate (http://www.sultanatesulu.org/gal.php) you can see him on the first picture standing on the left, behind Sultan Esmail Kiram II, the Malaysian Prime Minister Abdullah Badawi and his mother who adopted Esmail II as a son on that occasion. Fuad Kiram is the last son of Esmail Kiram I. Esmail I. has had a crown prince, Punjungan Kiram. During the martial law, when the crown prince was in exile, Mahakutta Kiram was proclaimed new Sultan after Esmail I died. After martial law, Punjungan returned and was crowned a rival Sultan to Mahakutta. Mahakuttas crown prince is Muedzul Lail Kiram,and Datu Mudarasul in Sabah who lives in Sulu and Sabah. Punjungans crown prince was Jamalul Kiram III and his crown prince was Esmail Kiram II whose current crown prince is Agbimuddin Kiram. By tradition, Fuad Kiram has no right to the throne as he is no legitimate successor to any former Kiram-Sultan. He is also no successor to the former recognized Sultans of other families, namely Sultan Abirin or Sultan Atti.

As the Sultanate voluntarily transferred its sovereignty rights in 1962, no titles of nobility can be awarded anymore nor can new ones be created. The Sultan of Sulu is a recognized tribe leader not a reigning monarch. Fuads claim that the Royal orders of knighthood were founded by former Sultans is not supported by any historic document. Nor do the Universities etc. who he is a patron of award accredited honorary degrees, at least there is no proof that they are accredited in the hosting countries as they are not part of the list of accredited bodies. The foreign titles of nobility recognized by his College of arms are not recognized elsewhere, especially most of the Italian titles of nobility. Anybody can contact the Italian kingly House of Savoy to request information of titles legitimately given out by the crown of Italy. Some similar titles were given out, but, to other families!

Fuad Kiram presents a treaty with the MNLF on his website that was not ratified neither by the Sema-Council of 13 nor by the Misuari-Bangsamoro Parliament. The Organisation of Islamic Conference OIC does not confirm the claim of Fuad that he represents now the Bangsamoro people and that all MNLF are now his citizens and not citizens of the MNLF proclaimed Bangsamoro country anymore.

Furthermore, he presents a picture of a meeting with the Philippine President and the Sultan of Brunei. The only pictures and newspaper article existing were made by Julmunir I. Jannaral of the Manila Times. Mr. Jannaral can be found on Fuads website, bearing now the titles of Maharadja, Baron and four knighthoods and he is named as the Royal Information Minister of Fuad. Neither the Palace of the Philippine President nor the Palace of the Sultan of Brunei confirm the character of this meeting as being official or planned.

Just visit the Office of the Philippine President to find Hon. Sultan Jamalul Kiram III., the Presidential Adviser for Muslim Royalty Concerns. http://www.news.ops.gov.ph/op-dir.htm Jamaluls rank and title as Sultan is still recognized by the current Sultan Esmail Kiram II and the Philippine government.

See the official list of Sultans of Sulu by the Philippine Government: http://www.sulu.gov.ph/history.asp?id=8&hide_id=5&tabid=2

More statements from the President can be found here: http://www.gov.ph/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15902&Itemid=2 http://www.pia.gov.ph/?m=31&af=200509&fi=05090801.jpg&date=09/08/2005

More information can be requested by the recognized Sultan of Sulu and North-Borneo.

If you add Sultan Fuad, then, you must add the two dozen other claimants who are also not recognized by any government institution or rebel group or the OIC as they are all of the same level: they are claimants to a traditional office that is occupied by the governmentally recognized tribe leaders. —Preceding unsigned comment added by About the Sultan (talk • contribs) 16:48, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I have noticed that the word "pretender" is used frequently in this article. Since there is no clear consensus that is visible to me as to who, exactly, the real sultan (if there is one) is, I have tagged this article as being non-neutral.  Discussion/clarification would be appreciated.  --Jackson Peebles (talk) 05:15, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Non-neutrality tag
The only explanation I could find for the tag is quoted here, from somewhere above: "I have noticed that the word "pretender" is used frequently in this article. Since there is no clear consensus that is visible to me as to who, exactly, the real sultan (if there is one) is, I have tagged this article as being non-neutral. Discussion/clarification would be appreciated. --Jackson Peebles (talk) 05:15, 4 March 2013 (UTC)"

While there is a dispute, it is explained objectively. There are four individuals clearly recognized by the Philippine government as pretenders, and other individuals making their own claims with much more limited recognition. So I will remove the non-neutrality tag, but please explain if you feel that it still belongs. Brian Z (talk) 03:35, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Coat of Arms
The coat of arms that we had listed as "official" seems to be used only by one particular contemporary claimant to the throne, Muedzul Kiram. We should not depict a coat of arms here if we do not have an independent source that says it was used by the Sultan of Sulu prior to 1917. --Brian Z (talk) 06:04, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Wholesale rewrite needed
The entire article desperately needs a rewrite and some serious pruning to remove unsourced claimes. To wit, under "Islamization and establishment" it reads "The different of beliefs on his grave locations came about due to the fact that Karim ul-Makhdum travelled to several islands in Sulu Sea to preach Islam. In many places in the archipelago, he was beloved. It is said that the people of Tapul built a mosque honoring him and that they claim descent from Karim ul-Makhdum. Thus, the success of Karim ul-Makhdum of spreading Islam in Sulu threw a new light in Islamic history in the Philippines. Good grief.  What the hell are "his grave locations"?  What is the objective significance of the claim that "in many places...he was beloved" and how could that possibly be proved?  How can anyone get away with using the pathetic phrase "It is said..."?  And how does one "throw a new light in...history"?  Naturally, there are no sources for these claims other than some supposed book from 1908 (with no pages cited, natch'). Could someone please try to rewrite this in English? Bricology (talk) 06:57, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram
In the description of a recent edit reverting my own edits, User:RDAndrew states "please do not change anything before discussing it". Here are the changes I intend to make. I think a third party comment might be valuable here.

Existing paragraph
"Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram, another claimant, has insisted on the legitimacy of his succession as the 35th Sultan of Sulu based on former Philippine President Ferdinand Marcos’ memorandum order 427 issued in 1974 that recognized his father, Sultan Mahakuttah A. Kiram, as Sulu ruler. At the same time, he became the Crown Prince and de facto heir to the throne. He is the eldest son of the said Sultan. . His grandfather was Sultan Esmail E. Kiram (recognised by Philippine government), his great grandfather was Sultan Muwallil Wasit II and his great grand uncle was Sultan Jamalul Kiram I. Additionally, Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram is the only one to have had received foreign recognition of his claim but such organizations as the |International Commission on Orders of Chivalry (ICOC) as well as other royal houses. He is a relative of Jamalul Kiram III."

Asalamu Alaikum and Be advise that the 1825 Sultan Jamalul Kiram-I (Dato Muwalil Wasit) was the father of Sultan Pulalun, the latter who was childless and chosen his nephew Taup to succeed him naming him MAHARAJA ADINDA TAUP, the son of Brunei Nakhoda Perkasa Angging. Maharaja Adinda Taup is the father of the 1915 Sharif Sultan Imam Ul-Alam Arpa, the latter whom the Sulu's sovereignty was returned by the Governor Frank Carpenter of the United States after Sultan Kiram-II surrendered it with his temporal powers in the Carpenter Agreement. Unfortunately, the disadvantaged in this case the Usurper-Sultans are usually recognized by colonizers due to their agreeing in favor of the colonizing administrations. Such was the 1957 private heirs were naturally recognized to substantiated Malaysia's occupation of North Borneo-Sabah in an existing leased. Otherwise, there is no reason for their occupation. Likewise, the Philippine Republic did recognized them in the Kirams irrevocable Power-of-Atty transferring the Sulu Sovereignty to the said Republic other than claiming its legitimacy as an independent sovereignty. Sultan Pulalun did not sign a lease treaty of North Borneo with the two British Subjects, but a Usurper (Jamalul Alam) did and hose real name was Agdam who signed as Jamalul Alam (denoting to be a relative of Brunei Sultan Jamalul Alam-II) and moreover, signed the Lease Treaty stipulating to be a supposed son of Sultan Pulalun. Then ensued Usurper-successors to the present. And all undermining the true lineage of true successors giving-in favor to colonizing administrations' wanting. Wassalam. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.210.78.2 (talk) 12:57, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Proposed version
"A relative of Jamalul, Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram, was proclaimed as the 35th Sultan of Sulu in September 2012. His father, Mohammad Ismael Kiram, is recognized as Sultan of Sulu, reigning from 1950 until his death in 1974. Muedzul insists that as the eldest son of Ismael, his own succession was recognized by President Marcos' Memorandum Order No. 427, issued on 10 May, 1974.  Another pretender, Mohammad Mahakuttah Kiram, was recognized as Sultan of Sulu by Marcos in Executive Order No. 429, issued the very next day. The Province of Sulu website recognizes Mahakuttah, but not Muedzul, as a successor of Ismael. "

Reasons for the proposed version
In my opinion, the first sentence has a smoother transition and is less wordy. The information I leave out of this first sentence is still included elsewhere. Crucially, the proposed version avoids making unverifiable statements about the "de facto heir to the throne", stating key facts in a neutral way with appropriate evidence. Various details that are left out in the proposed version would belong fine in the article dedicated to Muedzul himself. The main problem here (aside from weak references) is that there is no good reason to include every speck of evidence to support Muedzul's claim but not do the same for the others. Muedzul's claim is no more objectively notable then some of the others, but even in the proposed version he gets much lengthier treatment. Anyone who wants to can go to Muedzul's page on Wikipedia, or his own official page, both of which are referenced. Brian Z (talk) 06:44, 25 February 2013 (UTC)Brian Z (talk) 06:37, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Comment
Here is a clean example taken from the Sulu Sultanate. I think it would be a good basis in writing a list of pretenders and claimants. Trust me, it&#39;s notable (talk) 07:20, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

About the de facto and de jure statements, I'll try to sum it up:
 * De facto sultans are Jamalul Kiram III and Ismael Kiram II, because they are the honored sultans in the Philippines (I'm from the Philippines as well.) However, there is no law proclaiming/recognizing them as the sultans. (Sultanate was abolished after the Carpenter Agreement. The current Philippine constitution does not legally allow anyone to hold a title of nobility.) The provincial government of Sulu, which I found to be a good citation, lists them as the "sultans". Even the Philippine press and in the books I found at the library (no internet version so I'll try to get details when I return there) recognize the Kirams as the "pretenders to the throne".
 * De jure Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram, the one RDAndrew keeps on insisting (to the point that he used to obliterate the names of the other claimants) is the son of a Marcos-supported legitimate Sulu Sultan. The Philippine Daily Inquirer, a reputable broadsheet newspaper, summarizes his claim: "Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram, who has insisted on the legitimacy of his succession as the 35th Sultan of Sulu based on former President Ferdinand Marcos’ memorandum order 427 that recognized his father as Sulu ruler, meanwhile, has condemned the order of Jamalul – whom he described as “one of the many self-styled and illegitimate Sultans of Sulu” – to retake Sabah from Malaysia."

The be a legitimate Sultan of sulu, a claimant must be recognized by the Philippine government (usually through an executive order). As of today, there are no PH gov't-recognized Sulu Sultan. As how I see it, the PH gov't somehow ignored the Sultanate, lest its ties with Kuala Lumpur be severed. Hope this clarifies some issues. (P.S. The current version which no longer includes de facto and de jure designation is fine for me.) Trust me, it&#39;s notable (talk) 07:20, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment RDAndrew's source points to a Memorandum Order 427 that Marcos supposedly issued in 1974. I have tagged the reference links as per WP:REDFLAG. Xeltran (talk) 15:59, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Trust Me. This clarifies some things, for me at least. With the above in mind, I will make some further edits. Brian Z (talk) 13:44, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Please see Official Gazette of the Republic of the Philippines: http://www.gov.ph/2013/02/26/line-of-succession-of-the-sultans-of-sulu-of-the-modern-era/ -- Kimon talk 17:03, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Defacto, Jamul Kiram III would be the only claimant exercising the office, since he is the only one that actually controls territory. The others are mearly pretenders who excercise the office only in theory, not temporally through actually administering the Sultanate.XavierGreen (talk) 05:34, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I definitely disagree with XavierGreen here. Jamalul Kiram III is asserting a territorial claim, which is not the same as effectively controlling territory in a meaningful way. The other pretenders are also asserting a territorial claim (usually implicitly but still undeniably) by simply identifying themselves with the Sultanate. They all exercise the office, whenever they are recognized as speaking for the Sultanate. Brian Z (talk) 03:17, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Slave and Firearms trade
http://books.google.com/books?id=wYvwWcL0_DIC&pg=PA79&dq=sulu+slaves+firearms&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-1XtUrasBevMsQSJ0YGYCQ&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=sulu%20slaves%20firearms&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=VUZq93ydrrwC&pg=PA129#v=onepage&q&f=false

20:30, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Spanish attacks
http://books.google.com.my/books?id=qyo-Hti0-KAC&pg=PA83#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com.my/books?id=qyo-Hti0-KAC&pg=PA86#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=4EMIwfP-5x8C&pg=PA24#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=VUZq93ydrrwC&pg=PA119#v=onepage&q&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 06:13, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

http://books.google.com/books?id=QKgraWbb7yoC&pg=PA630#v=onepage&q&f=false

Fights with the British

http://books.google.com/books?id=jzUz9lKn6PEC&pg=PA149#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=U80cU8Fx1kAC&pg=PA11&dq=chinese++dayak+pirate+iban+suluk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gt4KU4DeK-_iyAHGxoHoBQ&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=chinese%20%20dayak%20pirate%20iban%20suluk&f=false

Fights with Spain

http://books.google.com/books?id=LF_UgEGu0dEC&pg=PA33#v=onepage&q&f=false

Ottoman help to America over Sulu
The Ottoman Sultan Abdul Hamid II, after being approached by American minister to Turkey, Oscar Straus (politician), sent a letter to the Moros of the Sulu Sultanate telling them not to resist American takeover and cooperate with the Americans at the start of the Moro Rebellion in 1898. The Sulu Moros complied with the order.

http://books.google.com/books?id=PvVlS3ljx20C&pg=PA235&dq=Pleased+sultan+Philippines+khalif+Sulu+chiefs+understanding&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sGYZU4-EC-vC0AGgmYGgDg&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Pleased%20sultan%20Philippines%20khalif%20Sulu%20chiefs%20understanding&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=PvVlS3ljx20C&pg=PA235&dq=Straus+Sulu+Ottoman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cmQZU8hTpvDRAebrgJgM&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Straus%20Sulu%20Ottoman&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=S5q7qxi5LBgC&pg=PA397&dq=Straus+Sulu+Ottoman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cmQZU8hTpvDRAebrgJgM&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Straus%20Sulu%20Ottoman&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=zOLE6zY-AewC&pg=PA22&dq=Straus+Sulu+Ottoman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cmQZU8hTpvDRAebrgJgM&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Straus%20Sulu%20Ottoman&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=2mRXt7NtFhEC&pg=PA159&dq=Straus+Sulu+Ottoman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cmQZU8hTpvDRAebrgJgM&ved=0CEQQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Straus%20Sulu%20Ottoman&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=pc5FAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA204&dq=Straus+Sulu+Ottoman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cmQZU8hTpvDRAebrgJgM&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Straus%20Sulu%20Ottoman&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=hwdPWJMbZCQC&pg=PA358&dq=Straus+Sulu+Ottoman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cmQZU8hTpvDRAebrgJgM&ved=0CFoQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Straus%20Sulu%20Ottoman&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=e9vfAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA358&dq=Straus+Sulu+Ottoman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cmQZU8hTpvDRAebrgJgM&ved=0CF8Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Straus%20Sulu%20Ottoman&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=vDzjkrTDKjYC&pg=PA405#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=vDzjkrTDKjYC&pg=PA406&dq=Abdulhamid+issued+decree+people+territory+support+America+Muslim+accepted&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2GYZU6m3IonU0QHHmoCQAw&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Abdulhamid%20issued%20decree%20people%20territory%20support%20America%20Muslim%20accepted&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 20:13, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

History
http://mnlfnet.com/History.htm

http://mnlfnet.com/History/The%20Coming%20of%20Islam%20to%20Sulu.htm

http://mnlfnet.com/History/THE%20SULU%20SULTANATE.htm

http://mnlfnet.com/History/Photo_Archives.htm

Rajmaan (talk) 17:54, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Flags and pictures
http://royalsultanate.weebly.com/

http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/images/philippino-moro-warriors.jpg

http://deadliestblogpage.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/73056974_s320x240.jpg

http://deadliestblogpage.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/moro_warrior.jpg

http://deadliestblogpage.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/juromentada.jpg

http://www.freewebs.com/philippineamericanwar/1900%20Sulu%20Warriors.JPG

http://www.freewebs.com/philippineamericanwar/Moros%20with%20Sultan%20brother%20on%20board%20US%20warship.JPG

http://www.freewebs.com/philippineamericanwar/Moro%20Weapons%20PC%201913.jpg

http://www.seraphicpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/moro.jpg

http://axisoflogic.com/artman/uploads/1/Moros1.jpg

http://deadliestblogpage.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/moro20weapons20pc201913.jpg

http://deadliestblogpage.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/bud_bagsak450_1.jpg

http://www.postcardman.net/philippines_ethnic.html

Sultan Jamal ul-Kiram II

http://www.postcardman.net/philippines/202448.jpg

http://www.postcardman.net/philippines/44627.jpg

Wives of the Sulu Sultan

http://www.postcardman.net/philippines/202406.jpg

Rajmaan (talk) 19:15, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

http://i45.tinypic.com/k9r9g.jpg

Non Sulu related Moro photos

Dato Piang and Secretary Taft

http://www.postcardman.net/philippines/202405.jpg

dead Jurumentado

http://www.postcardman.net/s44633.jpg

http://www.postcardman.net/philippines/44634.jpg

American soldier killed by Moros

http://www.postcardman.net/philippines/202419.jpg

Princess Radja Putri in Cottabato

http://www.postcardman.net/philippines/202471.jpg

Weaving Moro girl

http://www.postcardman.net/philippines/202427.jpg

Moro houses

http://www.postcardman.net/philippines/202435.jpg

Moros executed by Americans

http://www.postcardman.net/philippines/202453.jpg

http://www.postcardman.net/philippines/202452.jpg

Moro Dato Mominton, who killed 7 Americans

http://www.postcardman.net/philippines/202454.jpg

Moro constabulary

http://www.postcardman.net/philippines/202418.jpg

China relations
Chinese

http://big5.huaxia.com/zt/zhwh/05-047/589893.html

http://mil.huanqiu.com/history/2012-05/2715132.html

http://www.qlwh.com/jidi/xinshu.asp?id=1037

http://www.npm.gov.tw/hotnews/9811seminar/download/b/335000000E-I6Z-552.pdf

http://www.jqgc.com/jmda/40854_3.shtml

http://hk.crntt.com/doc/1021/0/4/6/102104606_3.html?coluid=7&kindid=0&docid=102104606&mdate=0511113640

http://hkmag.crntt.com/crn-webapp/mag/docDetail.jsp?coluid=30&docid=102105570&page=3

Do not use as source

http://asean.zwbk.org/club/archiver/showtopic-4150.aspx

English

http://www.zamboangatimes.ph/zamboangatimes/top-news/1602-tausug-team-to-visit-china-to-renew-ancient-ties.html

http://mnlfnet.com/Articles/BYC_08Oct2012_Historical%20&%20Human%20Wrong%20of%20Phil%20Colonialism.htm

http://mnlfnet.com/Articles/Editorial_11August2012_Impact%20of%20Possible%20China-Phil%20War%20Within%20Filipino-Moro%20War%20in%20Mindanao.htm

http://mnlfnet.com/History/The%20Coming%20of%20Islam%20to%20Sulu.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/philippines/history-sulu-sultanate-china.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=EwnzBiM0LmAC&pg=PA33#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Lb8a7P_2InIC&pg=RA3-PA7-IA5#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=VbwogbQ3l8UC&pg=PT84#v=onepage&q&f=false

Don't use the blogs as references, but good places to cross reference and check for information in order to find other references.

http://www.royalpanji.net/the_chinese_community_in__sulu_sultanate.html

http://www.morobloggers.com/category/pre-sultanate-period/

http://kiramfamily.blogspot.com/p/contoh.html

Sulu Netherlands relations and conflict

http://www.czipm.org/sulu-holandija-eng.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=VxJDSA80YcsC&pg=PA86&dq=An+wen+sulu+shandong&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aJllUv-GKrXI4APp9YHAAQ&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=An%20wen%20sulu%20shandong&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=l1vR-x9_pEEC&pg=PA27&dq=An+wen+sulu+shandong&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aJllUv-GKrXI4APp9YHAAQ&ved=0CEYQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=An%20wen%20sulu%20shandong&f=false

http://moroinmyblood.blogspot.com/2010/08/sulu-china-connection.html?m=1

http://books.google.com/books?id=QmpkR6l5MaMC&pg=PA40#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=xiOQdEzgP9kC&pg=PA44#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=EwnzBiM0LmAC&pg=PA33#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=VbwogbQ3l8UC&pg=PT84#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Lb8a7P_2InIC&pg=RA3-PA7-IA5#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.morobloggers.com/category/pre-sultanate-period/

http://books.google.com/books?id=GcFZFKKcJ8wC&pg=PA14&dq=An+wen+sulu+shandong&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aJllUv-GKrXI4APp9YHAAQ&ved=0CFcQ6wEwBg#v=onepage&q=An%20wen%20sulu%20shandong&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=V-TbryZleo0C&pg=PA366&dq=An+wen+sulu+shandong&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aJllUv-GKrXI4APp9YHAAQ&ved=0CE4Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=An%20wen%20sulu%20shandong&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=uChDbHq_MxoC&pg=PA237&dq=An+wen+sulu+muslims&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8pllUtzDGfjF4AOy8oCQBA&ved=0CDcQ6wEwAA#v=onepage&q=An%20wen%20sulu%20muslims&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=uChDbHq_MxoC&pg=PA237&dq=an+wen+sulu+muslim&hl=en&sa=X&ei=YaNlUtWyHJKp4AOF5IC4Dg&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=an%20wen%20sulu%20muslim&f=false

http://www.royalpanji.net/the_chinese_community_in__sulu_sultanate.html

http://www.yuchengcomuseum.org/press-room/Beyond%20the%20Currents%20-%20The%20Power%20of%20Sulu.pdf

http://sovereignsulu.webs.com/Short%20History-Sulu%20Sultanate.pdf

http://kyoto-seas.org/pdf/35/2/350201.pdf

http://alqalam.addu.edu.ph/sulu-treaties/

Sultan Badar ud-Din and China

Pages 150 and 151

http://books.google.com/books?id=YYlwAAAAMAAJ&q=Badar+ud-Din+china&dq=Badar+ud-Din+china&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XpxDU8LsF6TN2AWZ1IGABA&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAQ

http://books.google.com/books?id=YYlwAAAAMAAJ&q=Sulu+Badar+ud-Din+china&dq=Sulu+Badar+ud-Din+china&hl=en&sa=X&ei=So9DU4PYE-Pz2QWzrIH4Dw&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAQ

Page 151

http://books.google.com/books?id=lCg0AAAAIAAJ&q=Badar+ud-Din+china&dq=Badar+ud-Din+china&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XpxDU8LsF6TN2AWZ1IGABA&ved=0CEQQ6AEwAw

http://books.google.com/books?id=lCg0AAAAIAAJ&q=Sulu+Badar+ud-Din+china&dq=Sulu+Badar+ud-Din+china&hl=en&sa=X&ei=So9DU4PYE-Pz2QWzrIH4Dw&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAg

Page 312

http://books.google.com/books?id=QrHiAAAAMAAJ&q=Badar+ud-Din+china&dq=Badar+ud-Din+china&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XpxDU8LsF6TN2AWZ1IGABA&ved=0CFkQ6AEwBw

http://books.google.com/books?id=S5q7qxi5LBgC&pg=PA203&dq=Badar+ud-Din+china&hl=en&sa=X&ei=p5xDU8SYJ6uK2AX6zYCgDQ&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=Badar%20ud-Din%20china&f=false

Page 1333

http://books.google.com/books?id=CcgRAQAAMAAJ&q=Badar+ud-Din+china&dq=Badar+ud-Din+china&hl=en&sa=X&ei=t5xDU-iPDsac2QXj3oDAAQ&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAjgU

http://books.google.com/books?id=CcgRAQAAMAAJ&q=Sulu+Badar+ud-Din+china&dq=Sulu+Badar+ud-Din+china&hl=en&sa=X&ei=So9DU4PYE-Pz2QWzrIH4Dw&ved=0CFoQ6AEwCA

Page 11

http://books.google.com/books?id=_BVbAAAAIAAJ&q=Badar+ud-Din+china&dq=Badar+ud-Din+china&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-JxDU4rwBabO2wWG5YCIDQ&ved=0CFkQ6AEwCDgo

http://books.google.com/books?id=_BVbAAAAIAAJ&q=Sulu+Badar+ud-Din+china&dq=Sulu+Badar+ud-Din+china&hl=en&sa=X&ei=So9DU4PYE-Pz2QWzrIH4Dw&ved=0CFYQ6AEwBw

http://books.google.com/books?id=S5q7qxi5LBgC&pg=PA203&dq=Sulu+Badar+ud-Din+china&hl=en&sa=X&ei=So9DU4PYE-Pz2QWzrIH4Dw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Sulu%20Badar%20ud-Din%20china&f=false

Page 10

http://books.google.com/books?id=az9tAAAAMAAJ&q=Sulu+Badar+ud-Din+china&dq=Sulu+Badar+ud-Din+china&hl=en&sa=X&ei=So9DU4PYE-Pz2QWzrIH4Dw&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAw

Page 591

http://books.google.com/books?id=wz5vAAAAMAAJ&q=Sulu+Badar+ud-Din+china&dq=Sulu+Badar+ud-Din+china&hl=en&sa=X&ei=So9DU4PYE-Pz2QWzrIH4Dw&ved=0CFIQ6AEwBg

Page 398

http://books.google.com/books?id=W2ALAAAAIAAJ&q=Sulu+Badar+ud-Din+china&dq=Sulu+Badar+ud-Din+china&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Vp5DU7bQA6iz2gWqqoHYCQ&ved=0CDgQ6AEwATgK

Page 20 and Page 89

http://books.google.com/books?id=esOfAAAAMAAJ&q=Sulu+Badar+ud-Din+china&dq=Sulu+Badar+ud-Din+china&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Vp5DU7bQA6iz2gWqqoHYCQ&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAjgK

Page 24 and 27

http://books.google.com/books?id=zHFwAAAAMAAJ&q=Sulu+Badar+ud-Din+china&dq=Sulu+Badar+ud-Din+china&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Vp5DU7bQA6iz2gWqqoHYCQ&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAzgK

Page 58

http://books.google.com/books?id=p0ATAQAAMAAJ&q=Sulu+Badar+ud-Din+china&dq=Sulu+Badar+ud-Din+china&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Vp5DU7bQA6iz2gWqqoHYCQ&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBDgK

Page 24

http://books.google.com/books?id=Bb5xAAAAMAAJ&q=Sulu+Badar+ud-Din+china&dq=Sulu+Badar+ud-Din+china&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Vp5DU7bQA6iz2gWqqoHYCQ&ved=0CFsQ6AEwCTgK

Page 67

http://books.google.com/books?id=h-bsAAAAMAAJ&q=Sulu+Badar+ud-Din+china&dq=Sulu+Badar+ud-Din+china&hl=en&sa=X&ei=F59DU6PSFY2E2wXit4D4Cg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwADgU

http://www.zamboangatoday.ph/index.php/opinions/6336-scandals-in-history-inputs-for-peace-process-part-10.html

http://royalaranan.weebly.com/royal-house.html

Seal granted by China to Sulu

http://www.royalpanji.net/seals_and__sultans__of__the__royal__sultanate__of_.html

http://smj-site.4mg.com/photo2.html

https://hifzanshafiee.wordpress.com/category/islam/history/

https://hifzanshafiee.wordpress.com/2012/08/28/the-history-of-the-muslim-in-the-philippines/

http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/arch_0044-8613_1981_num_22_1_1677

http://www.asj.upd.edu.ph/mediabox/archive/ASJ-04-02-1966/majul-islam-history-filipino-people.pdf

http://www.seacomresearchcenter.com/?p=1899

Page 137

http://books.google.com/books?id=TlVuAAAAMAAJ&q=Chinese+membership+in+the+Ruma+Bichara,+the+Advisory+Council+of+the+Sulu+Sultanate,+goes+back+in+time+to+the+18th+century+when+such+a+privilege+was+granted+by+the+Sultan+to+the+Chinese+sector+as+a+matter+of+recognition+of+their+important+role+in+Sulu's+economy.+In+fact,+Wang+also+records+Sulu's+taking+of+Chinese+hostages+as+a+means+of+ensuring+the+much+desired+return+of+Chinese+traders+not+for+purposes+of+ransom+or+other+exploitations+as+it+is+understood+in+contemporary+usage.&dq=Chinese+membership+in+the+Ruma+Bichara,+the+Advisory+Council+of+the+Sulu+Sultanate,+goes+back+in+time+to+the+18th+century+when+such+a+privilege+was+granted+by+the+Sultan+to+the+Chinese+sector+as+a+matter+of+recognition+of+their+important+role+in+Sulu's+economy.+In+fact,+Wang+also+records+Sulu's+taking+of+Chinese+hostages+as+a+means+of+ensuring+the+much+desired+return+of+Chinese+traders+not+for+purposes+of+ransom+or+other+exploitations+as+it+is+understood+in+contemporary+usage.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DZG0U_neFazQsQSZvoC4Ag&ved=0CBsQ6AEwAA

Page 64

http://books.google.com/books?id=-rRuAAAAMAAJ&q=Chinese+membership+in+the+Ruma+Bichara,+the+Advisory+Council+of+the+Sulu+Sultanate,+goes+back+in+time+to+the+18th+century+when+such+a+privilege+was+granted+by+the+Sultan+to+the+Chinese+sector+as+a+matter+ofrecognition+of+their+important+role&dq=Chinese+membership+in+the+Ruma+Bichara,+the+Advisory+Council+of+the+Sulu+Sultanate,+goes+back+in+time+to+the+18th+century+when+such+a+privilege+was+granted+by+the+Sultan+to+the+Chinese+sector+as+a+matter+ofrecognition+of+their+important+role&hl=en&sa=X&ei=z5C0U_S_MeOosAShh4DoBQ&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA

Sabah
Update on Sabah standoff Oct. 20, 2013 By invictus1819

Sultan Kiram III Dies, Asks Siblings To Pursue Sabah's Repossession From Malaysia

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-932759

Rajmaan (talk) 20:15, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Sultanate of Sulu had a timeline
As I encountered it in November 2003, Sultanate of Sulu was an unwikified timeline dating back to at least 1457. Now it is a stub dating from May 2004. What happened to the data in this article? How could it have disappeared? 169.207.112.239 05:36, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * Here is a plausible explanation: A timeline was copied to the article, then noticed as a probable copy violation, then deleted. 169.207.112.239 05:49, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * According to the deletion log, Maximus Rex deleted this on 19 May 2004 as it had been listed on Wikipedia:Copyright problems for over 7 days with no opposition to deletion. Angela. 12:35, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Somebody needs to rewrite this. __earth 07:33, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree, Its so confusing that I am stil treating this thing as "raw text", before I even try to understand the thing. :) --Noypi380 14:55, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh ya, this has been cleaned already. --Noypi380 02:03, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Should this sultanate be part of Malaysia's history? All of Sulu (except Sabah) are part of the Philippines. :) --Noypi380 13:01, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Note:  Visit www.royalsultanate.weebly.com  or  www.maharlikasultante.weebly.com  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.100.251.189 (talk) 10:22, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry, we don't accept any self-published website here, see Reliable source. ~ Muffin Wizard;) 10:44, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Flag
Flag found here: http://flagspot.net/flags/ph-sulhi.html

POSITION STAND: HIS HIGHNESS ASHRF. MAULANA SHAH PADUKA AHMAD CARPENTER YU TIAMCO ARPA-V IBNI MAHARAJA ADINDA TAUP ANGGING (ANDDIN) ZEIN UL-ABIDIN SULTAN SHARIF UL-HASHIM ABU'BKR MOHAMAD SHAH ULRIJAL BOLKIAH TAGEAN TALLANO.

"BISMILLAH HIRAKMANIR-RAHEEM, ASALAMU ALAIKUM WARAHMATULAHI WABARAKATUHU"

GREETINGS; Sultan Sharif Maulana Paduka is a Sultan of Mindanao and Sulu as by bloodline from the 1752 three Sultans of Mindanao thru the 1825 Sulu Sultan Jamalul Kiram-I (Muwalil Wasit) thru his son the 1859 Sulu Sultan Pulalun and his crown Prince Heir-Apparent Maharaja Adinda Taup. The latter being "Sultan" Ashrf. Maulana Shah Paduka Ahmad Carpenter Yu Tiamco Arpa-V., great Grandfather. From this is the lineage whereby Maharaja Adinda Taup was in the Northern province of Gambas on Defensive Confrontations against the Spanish Armada encroachments towards Sulu, that this point Jumalul Agdam presented himself to the two British subjects for Sultan Pulalun, the latter who was seated at the hinterlands. His Highness is striving the return of the Sulu and Magundan ao (Mindanao) country state taken by foreign administering powers that led to the Philippine Republic. Pls visit this Sultan's website and judge for yourself. I never thought of the actual root cause of the Mindanao and Sulu peace and order problem and found out that its present dilemma is the continuing chapters of centuries old root cause. SEE www.royalsultanate.weebly.com Presently, His Highness stand as Monarchical Tribal Plenipotentiary for  the Maharlika Tribal Groups of Mindanao and Sulu: as the Sulu Sultanate had fallen upon the present Kiram heirs of the late Jamalul Kiram-III and a brother, the late Ismael Kiram. Ashrf. Maulana Shah Paduka Ahmad Carpenter Yu Tiamco Arpa-V is presently tracing the present heir for the Maguindanao (Mindanao) Sultanate and produced from a Manifesto for Unity of the once strings of Sultanates in Mindanao and Sulu. WA BILLAHI TAWFIQ WAL-HIDAYA.

"WASSALAMU ALAIKUM WARAHMATULLAH"

-- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.100.251.189 (talk) 03:37, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Tarsilah

 * 1
 * 2
 * 3

05:05, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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French court decision
I'm not familiar enough with this topic to WP:BOLD ly add this to the article, but I see that newspapers have reported a decision in a French court ordering the Malaysian government to pay US$14.9 billion to the heirs of the Sultan of Sulu. This seems significant enough to be mentioned in this article. See here, here,here. There are probably sources re this which I have not seen. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 07:52, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Follow-up: I have found a number of other sources regarding this, most or all of them located in the Philippines, Malaysia, or Borneo and none of them rated for reliability in WP:RSP. Generally, they report that the government of Malaysia has indicated that it rejects the award. None of the sources I've seen report formal legal moves to contest or reject the award but this Philippine source reports, "Gonzalo Stampa, a Spanish arbitrator, released the award through The Tribunal de Grande Instance in Paris" (wikilink mine) and that Malaysia "will not recognize both the arbitration proceedings and the subsequent award"; MSN.com re-quotes a Malay Mail article here reporting, "The Foreign Ministry and AG said the Spanish public prosecutor has filed a criminal complaint against Stampa for serious contempt of court and professional intrusiveness." Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 12:45, 7 March 2022 (UTC)