Talk:Sumedh Singh Saini

Watch for Neutrality and abuse for propaganda
This senior most police officer along with KPS Gill is among the most notable, famous and also controversial police officers from India. There are many groups out to get him for right or wrong reasons (it is not for wiki editors to determine whether they are right or wrong). Please monitor this article on regular basis for prevention of any abuse and adherence to biographies of living persons, neutral point of view, factual accuracy and sourced       guidelines. Thanks. --History Sleuth (talk) 04:12, 5 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I dont think its a propaganda, Mr. It appears that this officer did not spare any body. In order to make your views NPOV, please put yourself into the spot of that 91 year old lady whose Hindu son and son-in-law were both murdered just because this guy was in power and he had personal dispute with them. Her tears might have gone dry after crying for years and years, I could not even read all her newspaper statements, she do not want to die before getting justice from this great Nation. Please look from the eyes of those innocent children (especially that polio ridden child) who were burnet alive per Saini's orders (if these massive references are true). People are doing candle light marches against him, Congress is filling cases against him, courts are odering investigations against him, CBI is calling him culprit. Just imagine that how long the ruthless torture might have taken to make an old man loose his mental balance. And look he even killed this mentally imbalanced man afterwards. (This is what India's prestigious Central Bureau of Investigation is saying) It is spine chilling. Such ruthless cruelety against humanity. Please be NPOV. Please.. Please...Please.... for sake of God!! --170.35.208.21 (talk) 08:01, 3 February 2010 (UTC)


 * CBI is not court of law. It is an investigative agency which itself faces accusations of being manipulated by politicians. Under the laws of all countries, a person is persumed innocent until proven guilty in the court of law. This has not happened in Saini's case. No court has found him guilty of any offense. So he must be presumed innocent for encyclopaedic purposes. If he is accused of anything by particular group than it must be stated that he is 'accused' of whatever the alleged atrocity was. In case of the biography of living persons, added caution needs to be practiced and negative comments need to be given only conservatively and never without a citation, proper context and due weight.


 * The original draft of this article was quite balanced. It neither glorified him nor vilified him and stated all the negative references about him with due caution. If you think Indian administrative system has allowed him to get away with the crimes you and others accuse him of and you want to bring him to justice, then this is a campaign you need to fight on other forums.  Wikipedia is not meant for this purpose. Until you have a proof that he was convicted of any alleged crime, you should not make it look like he was. It is considered libel. I understand your passion about this issue but you need to temper it a bit here if you don't want your neutrality questioned. Regards--History Sleuth (talk) 18:48, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Discussion
Guys! I guess we all want to improve this article. Everybody has done excellent work to find great references. Please discuss any issues over here. Lets see if there are any issues which need further discussion. Regards--24.5.208.21 (talk) 02:09, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with the current wp:npov setup of the article. It has great references. Thanks for the hard work. Good Job --144.160.130.16 (talk) 21:14, 8 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Why not participate in the discussion from your regular accounts? How hard it is to register. I take it you are regular wikipedia users. Thanks.--History Sleuth (talk) 22:50, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Good work guys! --64.164.146.118 (talk) 22:26, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I purpose to take the "neutrality" tag off. The very last edit was made by editor User: History Sleuth and other editors did not raise any objections. I will wait for one day for any inputs before removing it. Thanks. --144.160.130.16 (talk) 21:32, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Reference Issues
I will be moving some references here which does not support the entered text. Article should purely be wp:npov. I request any pro/anti-subject editors to discuss any issues over here. --DawnOfTheBlood (talk) 00:04, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

http://www.indianexpress.com/ie/daily/19981106/31051524.html - •	This reference never mentioned that “Despite various accusations, Saini continues to be seen as a highly regarded police officer and inspirational figure by many in India” •	It does say Saini is ideal of Param Singh aka Param Bir Singh. I have documented it under section •	Remember, while talking about Param Bir Singh, this reference said “These days, the Maharashtra-cadre cop is Deputy Commissioner of the Crime Branch in Mumbai” •	While continuously praising Param by several people, it talk about his transfer to Crime Branch, it says that he can be a source of inspiration to inspiration to several newly trained officers. http://www.tehelka.com/story_main14.asp?filename=Ne091005Dirty_Harrys.asp •	This reference never mentioned that “Despite various accusations, Saini continues to be seen as a highly regarded police officer and inspirational figure by many in India” •	It says “IGP SS Saini, known as Punjab’s very own Dirty Harry, has been in the thick of action since the days of terrorism, earning public applause and criticism with equal measure. Dheer’s arrest, provoked by a piece in The Sunday Express alleging Saini’s vested interests and benami properties worth crores of rupees, is a classic display of terrorising a hapless citizen.”

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2002/20020629/main3.htm •	This reference does say “Both Mr Bhatnagar and his immediate colleague IGP Intelligence (till Thursday), Mr S.S. Saini, are known to be officers of unimpeachable integrity and professional competence. So I am keeping it alongwith its text.

Any objections ?--DawnOfTheBlood (talk) 00:14, 7 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Following references are sufficient to support the edit you deleted. They clearly imply that he is considered to be a highly regarded figure by some. I am surprised that total ommision of the fact that Devinder Pal Singh Bhullar is a convicted terrorist and violation of many other WP guidelines like BLP and Undue Weight did not bother you. Lets use some restrain here. Thanks.--History Sleuth (talk) 01:51, 7 March 2010 (UTC)


 * "Former Punjab DGP K.P.S. Gill and former Chandigarh SSP S.S. Saini are his ideals. 'Gangsters merit no sympathy', says Singh, explaining why he advocates a tough line." Roving Eye -- Chandigarh ,The Indian Express, Friday, November 6, 1998 [3]
 * 11.^ a b "Saini’s role in crushing terrorism is legendary, as were the methods he employed. In 2002, Saini masterminded the arrest and subsequent probe into the Ravi Sidhu-led Punjab Public Service Commission that won applause across the country" Dirty Harrys Thrive in Amarinder Regime, Vikram Jit Singh, Tehlka.com, Sep 10, 2005[4]
 * 12.^ a b "Mr. Saini was a dare devil police officer an had strict attitude towards terrorism and was much dreaded and feared by terrorisrs. " Nation keepers: Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF), pp 104, R. S. D. Dogra, New Delhi : A P H Publishing Corp., 2004.
 * 13.^ a b "Both Mr Bhatnagar and his immediate colleague IGP Intelligence (till Thursday), Mr S.S. Saini, are known to be officers of unimpeachable integrity and professional competence." It is a clear case of ‘operation cover-up’", Special Editorial, Hari Jaisingh, The Tribune,Saturday, June 29, 2002, Chandigarh, India
 * Again, please see my points above. These references are related to Saini but these do not support the text which you are adding. I kept one of your one sentence because the reference associated with it did support one sentence, but you can not use any reference to support any other text. I am sure if you do further search then you can find some sources, please feel free to add your text once you have the supporting references. --DawnOfTheBlood (talk) 02:57, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
 * If the subject has bad reputation/references then you can not just enter whatever you want to glorify him. Everey single sentence should adhere to wikipedia policies. --DawnOfTheBlood (talk) 02:57, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Also, I need to see the following reference please.--DawnOfTheBlood (talk) 02:57, 7 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Could you clarify what do you need to see more here. The reference is even quoted. What more do you need to see here?--History Sleuth (talk) 01:43, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

^ a b "Mr. Saini was a dare devil police officer an had strict attitude towards terrorism and was much dreaded and feared by terrorisrs. " Nation keepers: Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF), pp 104, R. S. D. Dogra, New Delhi : A P H Publishing Corp., 2004. --DawnOfTheBlood (talk) 00:18, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I need the weblink to this source, please.--24.5.208.21 (talk) 02:37, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Would this satisfy you now? --History Sleuth (talk) 02:55, 7 March 2010 (UTC)


 * http://books.google.ca/books?id=Y6f9HTSq3sUC&pg=PA104&dq=Saini+Dogra&ei=1hSTS_PtIZTmzQTJ68m4Cw&cd=2#v=onepage&q=&f=false


 * Now please reach wp:consensus here on what do you want to add from this reference. I will not delete anything which adhere to wikipedia policies. --DawnOfTheBlood (talk) 03:01, 7 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Did you use the same rule to make your own edits? If you are following these rules with integrity you would not have deleted saveral well sourced edits in such excitement. Please refrain from gaming the rules and stop using weasel text to denigrate this person. The article is very lop sided in its present state with controversies given undue weight and any positive reference deleted or diminished. Thanks--History Sleuth (talk) 03:33, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

BLP
Please bear in mind wp:BLP. Accusations would not generally belong, as I see it. There seem to be adequate criminal charges and public outcry to make the controversial nature of the man and his work clear. The glowing praise does not belong either.- Sinneed  08:44, 7 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi Sinneed, thanks for editing this article. I hope you would keep watching it. I started this article and if you go back in the history, not attempt was made to conceal the controversies about this man. The original version was quite balanced. This person is a deeply polarizing figure in Indian public life. He was a star police officer and national hero in 80s and 90s with huge fan following, much like his mentor KPS Gill, who himself was no stranger to similar controversies but still has a celebrity kind of following in India.  The problem with this article is not that it presents allegations (none proven in court so far)  but it gives disproportionate space and text to the negative stuff when there is equal amount of  citable stuff which shows this person in good light as well. There is healthy mean in presenting both positive and negative perspectives which has not been met in this article. If an attempt is made to balance the presentation, this other editor either deletes the edit along with the citation or buries it under a heap of negative stuff so that it does not catch attention. One of the allegations that he has given so much prominence to is actually denied by the person whose testimony is being used to make that allegation. He has ommited the denial altogether and the text is weasel at best.  I will post the citation soon. The kind of language used and selective  prominence given to just few aspects almost amounts to  an emotional character-assasination and libel fueled by a speacial interest group agenda. Why are the cases which this officer solved successfully that brought him national applause not being given same space? He also got great national level applause for solving jobs-for-cash scam which got positive attention in the media. Why is that report being dismissed in a single sentence while negative unproven allegations are being reiterated over and over? I think there is a clear presentation bias in this article which needs to be corrected to protect the spirit of BLP guideline. Please feel free to correct me if I am off mark here. Regards.--History Sleuth (talk) 20:19, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
 * "Unproven allegations" - Perhaps balance them with defence. The glow of journalists about what they think of him personally is jut not useful, IMO.  If the allegations are just that, not formal inquiries (and reported as such), formal charges (and reported as such), then they probably don't belong, under wp:BLP.  An idea:  propose the edits here on talk.-  Sinneed  20:32, 7 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Sinneed,,,,will do as you adivse but given below is the gist of BLP guideline on Criticism and Praise which I believe has been violated quite audaciously in the current presentation of the aticle.

Criticism and praise: BLP Guideline

Criticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone. Do not give disproportionate space to particular viewpoints. The views of a tiny minority have no place in the article. Care must be taken with article structure to ensure the overall presentation is broadly neutral; in particular, section headings should reflect areas important to the subject's notability.

Content should be sourced to reliable sources and should be about the subject of the article specifically. Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association. Look out for biased or malicious content about living persons. If someone appears to be promoting a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability.

--History Sleuth (talk) 20:44, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I would encourage you to focus on actual article changes, and the guidelines/rules/prolicies/essays that support them. Simply characterizing the hard work of yourself and other editors is pointless and makes wp:consensus that much harder.-  Sinneed  21:04, 7 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry, if you got that perception but I think it is necessary to characterize the nature of edits to communicate the concerns. Would you agree that in its present the article stresses negative perspective more than the positive ones. If its shown that positive perspectives about this person have the same notability as the negative one, wouldn't there be case for striking the balance as per BLP: Criticism and Praise guideline? I think there is a case and you or any other neutral editor won't disagree once you see a few more references. I will work slowly on this in next few days as I get time. I hope you would stick around as I would appreciate your commentary and editorial advice. Thanks.--History Sleuth (talk) 21:52, 7 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Sinneed, in the Alleged Human Rights Violations it alleged based on the "confidential letter" written by a police officer that Saini had staged the encounter but it has been ommited that the police officer in question, Mohammad Mustafa, had denied having written such a letter. I believe the text dealing with this needs to be edited immediately with the following citation:

"Three days after it was published, Mustafa reportedly denied the story."

Dead silence: the legacy of human rights abuses in Punjab By Human Rights Watch/Asia, pp 18, Physicians for Human Rights (U.S.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by User: (talk • contribs) History Sleuth

BLP - random section for easy editing
(outdent)"nature of edits to communicate the concerns" - it isn't. It disrupts, discourages editors from communication, and does nothing good.- Sinneed  22:44, 7 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Okay, point well taken. Kindly review my latest edits and feel free to advise again. Regards.--History Sleuth (talk) 23:01, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Police Officers' response to the allegations and charges
Please note that the response of the police officers to the allegations also needs the same prominence as the charges to comply with neutrality guidelines. Following are two such citations. More are easily available on the web. thanks--History Sleuth (talk) 23:33, 7 March 2010 (UTC)


 * "Off the record, the top-most echelons of Punjab Police endorse the view that the human rights slogan is being misused by extremists' sympathisers, who are orchestrating the bulk of litigation. "They are using it as a means to harass and weaken the Punjab Police," is the general refrain." After The Highs, The Lows, The once-lionised Punjab Police faces a discrediting litany of human rights complaints, Jul 24, 1996, Outlook India, Bhavdeep Kang,


 * "The ultimate irony is that the instruments and institutions of democracy are, today, arrayed against the very people who made democracy possible in Punjab. For those who were comprehensively defeated in the battle for ‘Khalistan’, ‘public interest’ litigation has become the most convenient strategy for vendetta." KPS Gill's letter to Prime Minister I.K. Gujral on the death of Ajit Singh Sandhu, 30th May, 1997 New Delhi


 * Again, strongly suggest proposing edits instead of making such broad and sweeping (and long... wp:TLDR) statements. Please focus on the content.
 * "same prominence as the charges to comply with neutrality guidelines" - an example of a throwaway wp:POINT comment.- Sinneed  23:48, 7 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I guess I still have learning curve. Will do as advised. thanks--History Sleuth (talk) 00:09, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I thin it is good advice, but I wouldn't take what I say too much to heart. I am no expert, I just edit A LOT.-  Sinneed

Supreme Court stays probe against Saini
SC stays CBI probe against Saini

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/sc-stays-cbi-probe-against-saini/334488/

Please take note of the above news. This probe has been mentioned in the article but it has been ommited that Supreme Court of India has stayed the case after the intervention of Punjab government in Saini's defence. I believe this reference should be added with suitable text .--History Sleuth (talk) 04:38, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Please check this link too. It explains why Supreme Court stayed the case because of the alleged incosistencies in CBI's case:

SC stays CBI probe against Sumedh Saini in fake encounter case

http://www.indlaw.com/guest/DisplayNews.aspx?A215D0BD-CCD8-40CD-AA79-599F8171F64D

Daljit Singh Bittu, leader of SAD (Panch Pardhani) and "Public Protest"
Daljit Singh Bittu leader of "Public Protest" against Saini is a convicted former terrorist with prison record. This needs inclusion in the article where the mention of "public protests" against Saini are mentioned. The present text give the illusion that there was widespread spontaneous protest, when in fact it was organized by activists of an organization with a very questionable standing. Reference is given below about his involvement with terrorism:

"Daljit Singh Bittu is the latest in the spate of arrests in Punjab, after a suspected militant was nabbed in Ludhiana on Tuesday. Bittu, once a dreaded terrorist, but now living a life of political activist after a long spell in prison, was arrested by the Ludhiana police on Thursday evening....Bittu has been arrested, reported IANS, for allegedly conspiring to kill Deputy Chief Minister Sukhbir Singh Badal. He was conspiring to stage terrorist attacks in Punjab in the coming months, the report added.

President of All India Sikh Students Federation when terrorism was beginning to overtake Punjab in 1980s, Bittu was subsequently named in many high profile terrorist activities. He rose up in terrorist ranks to become a member of the Panthic Committee led by Sohan Singh, one of the underground groupings that led the militant ranks. After much bloodshed, that claimed thousands of lives, terrorism was contained in early 1990s. Bittu was one of the survivors, who went underground. He was arrested, eventually, in 1996 from a farm house near Ropar, where he was living under an assumed name along with Gursharan Singh Gama.

After coming out of jail, Bittu joined mainstream politics, initially, siding with Simranjit Singh Mann and later forming his own party. His brief jump into electoral arena proved disastrous when together with Mann, Bittu led the SAD (Amritsar) in 2007 Punjab assembly elections, only to face a humiliating defeat for all its candidates"

http://www.punjabnewsline.com/content/view/18293/38/

It appears that there are terrorist sympathisers who are one sidedly maligning this brave officer.There are not many media reports about the days of terrorism, possibly because those were pre internet days.It is unfortunate that allegations like mr saini's "reprisals" against women, children and the aged are being projected as the gospel. Several portions have been edited by persons who are biased against this man or who have very limited knowledge of the days of terrorism [or both].Mr Kps Gill who lead the fight against terrorism was also similarly maligned, by terrorist sympathisers who used every tool they could to attack Gill. Saini's role against khalistani insurgents was legendary. The oppressed innocents worshipped him.One aspect of this man has missed most editing attempts - this man was a hard task master who didn't allow any aberration in the force he commanded. i suggest that the editors of wikipedia may dig older and deeper, and peruse reports of the 1980/1990s [ i.e the days of terrorism] to bring out the real truth about this man.

Also,Saini's anti corruption drives in which he almost single handedly takes on the system need a separate section. One piece by the editor of The Tribune - No My Lord - gives an insight to this aspect of Saini. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zzzamba (talk • contribs) 19:32, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

We read the article on Mr Saini. It is apparent that pro terrorist and criminal groups are using this forum for their propoganda. The CBI case registered against Mr Saini has been struck down by the Supreme Court with severe strictures on the High Court Judge who had targeted Mr Saini. It is shocking that there can be a unison of interests between a judge and terrorist elements. We would request that the facts be written/edited as per the Wiki policy of neutrality. The other case against Saini has nothing to do with Saini motors. No member of Saini motors is missing. The missing Vinod Kumar has a long history of crime dating back to the 1970s. His links with an old established criminal mafia are well known. He had criminal cases registered against him even before Mr Saini joined the police service. A journalist of the Hindustan Times Mr Virender Batish met the missing Vinod Kumar at Nepal several months after his disappearance. The entire drama has been orchestrated by criminals of various hues. In all fairness it would be appropriate to wait for the judicial verdict before passing value judgements. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factfindergroup (talk • contribs) 21:16, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

dear 99.179.23.228. we have not deleted any material substance. Your allegations against Mr saini regarding the killing of terrorist Jatana s family etc are given in great detail in the article. we only edited the duplicity. And if you are keen to comment on TADA, we respect your desire. Let your comments stay. IF you ever have the time, could you give your comments on the thousands of innocents [ both sikhs and hindus] killed by terrorists in punjab? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factfindergroup (talk • contribs) 18:05, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Rewrite
I have pretty much completely rewritten this article. Wikipedia articles are not intended to be rolling-news sources and nor are they the place to conduct tit-for-tat, politically-weight arguments etc. I strongly suggest that any future contributors make themselves familiar with WP:BLP and WP:DUE before editing this article. - Sitush (talk) 19:10, 29 March 2012 (UTC)