Talk:Summerwind

Coordinates
The coordinates were added with this edit which did not provide a source. What was the origin of those coordinates? --Dual Freq (talk) 21:17, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I removed this because it has been suggested that these may or may not be true. Re-add and state the reliable source that originated these. The aerial photo looks like a ruined building, but maybe it's not the right one. --Dual Freq (talk) 19:26, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

This: 46.1986°N, -89.42163°W from above, appears to be correct, but it is unlikely that a reliable source will publish an address for the property due to the concern of trespassers on private property. http://maps.sco.wisc.edu/WHAIFinder/ has 1938 aerial photos showing a house at that same location with very few others in the area. http://historicalmaps.arcgis.com/usgs/ topos show very few other structures on the Wisconsin portion of West Bay Lake, with the 1981 topo showing a larger home at the location above. Also, aerial photos from bing and google and http://vcgis.co.vilas.wi.us/vmapp/ seem to show some kind of ruins at this location, while adjacent properties have no ruins. I don't know how this would be cited in the article, so I suppose it will have to stay here. The 1938 aerial is Public domain and could be used on wikipedia, but without a source saying that is the house, I suppose it could not be used either. --Dual Freq (talk) 22:46, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Current owners
Huffington Post contributor Corey Schjoth reported in his article, "Owners of Famous Haunted House Conjuring Funds for Resurrection" that Harold and Babs Tracy of Cataract WI are the current owners and were looking for funds to rebuild in October 2014. However, Vilas County tax assessor lists M/M Shely of St. Charles, IL as the owners of the property. See: http://vcgis.co.vilas.wi.us/vmapp/ --Dual Freq (talk) 23:09, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
 * You know the exact address and how recent the Tracy's purchased the property and how to navigate to the property information on that website? That link is just a general Vilas County map and not specific to the address or its owners.  Frequently county online databases are the last to be updated.  That link even states: "Vilas County does not guarantee the accuracy of the material contained herein and is not responsible for any misuse or misrepresentation of this information or its derivatives."  In all honesty, I believe a Huffington Post reporter over some ambiguous government self-accuracy disclaiming webpage.  Additionally, the Quad-City Times corroborates that Mr. and Ms. Harold Tracy are in fact the owners. --Oakshade (talk) 06:03, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

If you want to blindly trust a ghost story for factual information, there's nothing I can say here that's going to drag you back to reality. I trust facts not ghost stories. Look at the coordinates for the house on the map and you will find the tax records. You link says all I need to say "news/opinion/editorial/columnists/bill-wundram." The fact that they are telling a ghost story is a red flag that at least parts of the material is not true. We don't know what is part of the legend and what is fact, therefore it is not a reliable source. --Dual Freq (talk) 13:05, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 * You're under the bizarre impression that if a writer writes about haunting or other paranormal legends, that suddenly discredits them as a writer. It doesn't.  Your "The fact that they are telling a ghost story is a red flag" statement is an admission of your personal opinion original research speculation.  You need actual evidence that reporters, writers have not done fact-checking, not subject to editorial oversite and are unreliable.  Simply having written about ghost legends doesn't make them any of those things.  WP has a strict policy against original research.--Oakshade (talk) 14:50, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I'll add that you yourself questioned the coordinates because they were unsourced above on this talk page, but now you believe those un-sourced coordinates and the tax information of them on a accuracy-disclaiming website? Talk about an original research red flag! --Oakshade (talk) 15:04, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

FYI, I'm not trying to add who the current owners are to this article, so there is no original research of mine in the article. I've been saying all along that we don't know what to believe is accurate in these stories. We can't separate reality from fiction in these sources because they are not reliable regarding history. The fact that the claimed ownership in these articles does not match the actual ownership tells me that something is not right. Regardless of land ownership, the red flag is that you are trying to squeeze factual information out of a ghost story. Another red flag is that these books are about Ghost stories and UFOs. Another red flag is that at least one of these authors writes books about ghosts, ufos and big foot. That is the definition of WP:Fringe and WP:Redflag. --Dual Freq (talk) 18:42, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 * You're attempting to employ original research based on what even you admit (and started a whole section for) is un-sourced content and a self-accuracy-disclaiming website. That's a true WP:Redflag scenario.  I've asked you multiple times and you've not given any credible answer:
 * As you are slandering multiple authors, what evidence backed by any reliable source that Chad Lewis, Corey Schjoth or Bill Wundram have no journalistic reliability? Hint: Your original research speculation because they have written about paranormal legends doesn't count as "evidence" nor are you a reliable source.--Oakshade (talk) 19:19, 18 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Why don't you guys take this to WP:RSN? Edit-warring tags in and out is kind of lame. For the record, I feel the same as User:Dual Freq on the topic of quality of sources, but I rapidly lost interest in arguing in circles. - LuckyLouie (talk) 19:22, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Been thinking of that actually. --Oakshade (talk) 19:24, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 * RSN (link). Thanks for moving this mess to there. -LuckyLouie (talk) 23:33, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Is the plan is to keep forum shopping until you find some folks that are willing to agree that ghost stories can be used as reliable sources?--Dual Freq (talk) 21:13, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Unless you want to continue edit warring, we're going to get wider community input. And nobody is claiming "ghost stories" are reliable sources.  You've made the charge that writers are un-reliable sources because simply they have written about paranormal topics and no evidence by any reliable sources of their un-reliability.  Because of very limited editors here edit warring, we need to get proper consensus as to the validity of such an assessment of sources. --Oakshade (talk) 03:44, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't have a single source, but Babs Tracy is a nickname for Vavelle Tracy who's maiden name was Vavelle Shely and maried Harold Tracy. One of the linked articles state that multiple investors bought the property and another states Harold Tracy is a co-owner. It makes sense to me that M/M Shely and Harold and Babs Tracy are both related through the Shely side and likely business partners in the investment of the property. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.42.61.87 (talk) 18:02, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Sources, notability, future improvements
I believe pop culture mentions in sources like HuffPo and Ghostly Travel books have earned the topic a few sentences in List of reportedly haunted locations in the United States, but not a stand alone article, since the only in-depth coverage is a book by a guy that invented a gothic pseudonym to tell a scary ghost story. However, if it passes AfD, I'm sure the article can be further improved by consolidating the blow-by-blow, sold-and-resold-again details down to a summary of Von Bober's essential claim that the mansion could not stay sold because of haunting. - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:29, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 * A bit of change of subject, but thank you.--Oakshade (talk) 15:34, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Life Magazine "Most Haunted"
One of the apocryphal stories relating to the legend is that there was a "ten most haunted" article in Life Magazine. The Life photo essay was entitled "Terrifying Tales of Nine Haunted Houses" and was in the November 1980 of Life Magazine starting on page 152. It did not claim them to be most haunted and in this case simply retold the talk Von Bober wrote in his 1979 book. It is not "hard hitting" journalism, but simply spooky photos of "haunted" houses of the period. (ie from Von Bober's book) In the intervening years at some point someone decided that there was a most haunted article in Life, and that is part of the urban legend that sometimes gets referred to in these puff, haunted house articles. It's this sort of gradual changing of a story that makes it pointless treat an article in the travel section about ghost story or urban legend as if it were held to the same editorial standard as an investigative journalism piece. --Dual Freq (talk) 21:08, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification of the title and page number. I'll correct it in the article.  Nobody is claiming the Life Magazine article/photo essay was "hard hitting" journalism. --Oakshade (talk) 00:33, 23 October 2014 (UTC)  Nevermind.  You already did that.  Thank you! --Oakshade (talk) 00:39, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
 * By the way, did you get this information from this yuku message board? --Oakshade (talk) 00:43, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

http://www.originallifemagazines.com/LIFE-Magazine-November-1980-P2904.aspx has the cover or you can see the cover on e-bay with a brief search. It says in the upper right "Terrifying Tales of 9 Haunted Houses" with the table of contents. You can visit your local library to read it. It's a photo essay, but don't expect to find anything more than Von Bober's tale and some spooky photos. See also: The Amityville Horror. Same deal, 1970s era paranormal craze, fictional haunting claimed to be fact, etc. Only there was never a movie made about the Carver Effect. --Dual Freq (talk) 01:04, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I saw all the ebay auctions of this cover and none of them give the page number nor describe the story as a "photo essay." The only online source, not reliable source, that mentions the page number is an anonymous message on that Yuku board and even that describes the Life magazine story as a "story" and then later as  a "photo essay."  Is that your source? --Oakshade (talk) 03:31, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
 * No that website is not my source, but it did make it easier to find by month and year at the library. In this case a photo-essay is a bunch of spooky photos with a brief haunted house story with each with a central theme. If you want to call it an article, than so be it. I know Life magazine is not the travel section of the quad cities newspaper, or a book about UFOs and haunted houses, but it's the original source. Whether you believe it or not doesn't matter to me. I know you always have to have the last word, so go ahead. --Dual Freq (talk) 22:12, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
 * So you're saying you went to a library that had this edition of Life in stock and read it to edit here?--Oakshade (talk) 23:15, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
 * In addition to researching at libraries, I'm also guilty of using, real books, microfiche, lexis-nexis, newspaperarchive, EBSCOhost and other databases to improve articles. There are sources other than the internet. I've also created over 300 articles here and taken dozens of photos and uploaded a couple thousand other dod images. So yes, I've wasted a lot of time doing research for this and other articles. A lot of that is still around, but in the past 8 years a fair chunk of that has probably been lost to the whims of anon editors, vandalism, etc. --Dual Freq (talk) 01:30, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Specifically, you've gotten access at a physical library to this actual Life magazine article and have based your edits here on that article found at that library? What else does that article say besides what that anonymous poster wrote on that Yuku message board?  Honestly, it would be helpful. --Oakshade (talk) 01:46, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Vilas County Historical Society-historical marker-Summerwind
Hi-I sent an e-mail to the Vilas County Historical Society about installing a historical marker near Summerwind. I mentioned in the e-mail that Summerwind was a summer home for a U.S. Cabinet secretary Robert Lamont and that could be the basis for the historical marker. I also mentioned in the e-mail that Summerwind is controversial because it is supposed to be haunted. I am not sure the Wisconsin Historical Society would installed because the WHS has specific requirements and guidelines for installing a historical marker. I have received no answer so far from the Vilas County Historical Society and will keep you people posted. Many thanks-RFD (talk) 11:43, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but, you know, WP:NOTPROMOTION, WP:NOT, etc. Good luck with your project. - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:30, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I wanted to check with the Vilas County Historical Society about a historical marker and how they present Summerwind. It was no promotion, no forum-just an inquiry how Vilas County Historical Society has to say about the house. About a historical marker, etc., This could improved the article. Thank you-RFD (talk) 18:39, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
 * So did the local historical society get back to you on this? I get the impression that some of the locals tried to tone down the haunting legends. Perhaps it could have been used to boost tourism if it had been in the village where the tourists could have been better dealt with and profited from, rather than at a rural lake house. The Land O' Lakes Historical Society included it on a "West Bay Lake Resorts 1910-1960" (on their now defunct website). I was curious if the home was originally part of one of those resorts. --Dual Freq (talk) 00:40, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

GNIS coordinate?
I'm not sure what the purpose is of adding this into the lead. It appears to be original research, since there's nothing at that link that mentions Summerwind at all. - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:00, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
 * It's not really appropriate as part of the article text, so I moved it to an external link. - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:27, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
 * There is no GNIS coordinate for Summerwind so far. I added the GNIS to the lake where the house was located on. So far there is no article for the lake. It was not original research-the GNIS was needed so readers could located where the general area the house was located-thanks-RFD (talk) 18:32, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I moved the GNIS for West Bay Lake from the external links section to the info box since a citation is needed. No original research. Thank you-RFD (talk) 11:49, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Assume good faith
One comment-I assumed good faith when I contacted the Vilas County Historical Society about a historical marker and anything else the society had regarding additional information about Summerwind. I also assumed good faith when I added the GNIS citation about the lake that Summerwind was on since there was no geographic coordination for Summerwind. Thank you-RFD (talk) 11:35, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Sources for funding drive for possible restoration
Here are the sources added for restoration, if it ever becomes an issue. I just don't think we need 7 sources for one sentence. --Dual Freq (talk) 22:25, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
 * http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/ghost-fans-hope-to-rebuild-mansion--haunting-and-all-b99381544z1-281025652.html
 * http://www.vilascountynewsreview.com/lifestyle/group-looking-rebuild-summerwind-sets-benefit
 * http://www.wisconsinsickness.com/death-trip/resurrecting-summerwind-haunted-mansion/
 * https://roadtrippers.com/blog/wisconsins-haunted-summerwind-mansion-may-be-getting-a-second-life
 * http://boulderjct.org/event/fox-valley-ghost-hunters-resurrecting-summerwind/
 * http://www.wjfw.com/stories.html?sku=20141028184624&display=video
 * http://www.huffingtonpost.com/corey-schjoth/owners-of-famous-haunted-_b_5935636.html

Book speculation
According to an anonymous editor, The History Press may publish the book "Haunted Summerwind: A Ghostly History of a Wisconsin Mansion" by Devon Bell in 2015. I have removed it for now due to unclear notability of the author, and WP:CRYSTALBALL. Future publication does not merit its own section, if it is published, I could see possibly linking it in further reading if it has an ISBN and is not self published. --Dual Freq (talk) 03:33, 16 December 2014 (UTC)