Talk:Sun Dance/Archive 1

minor edit
I'm going to change the term "early 70s" to "mid 70s" in the sentence "since Jimmy Carter's presidency in the early 1970s." "early" makes one think of 1970 to 1973ish(the dance was performed during the '73 wounded knee siege while still illegal) where as "mid" brings one to the middle 70s where you find 75/76 and the first year of carter's presidency. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greengrapes (talk • contribs) 03:35, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Comments
I've read that photographs aren't allowed to be taken at Sun Dances, which is backed up by the lack of photographs on the article. If someone can confirm this as true, could you please add that piece of information to the article?


 * It's true, the ceremony is kept sacred and secret by there not being allowed video or still cameras.Not even a sketch pad is allowed.Also, the main illustration here isn't even close to a sundance. The ceremony is kept sacred and secret by there not being allowed video or still cameras.Not even a sketch pad is allowed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.16.227.99 (talk) 13:44, 15 April 2007


 * If it really is true that photographs are not permitted at Sun Dances, then I do not understand why I've seen so many of them being published in books? Or that I've even been able to see it on television? From what I'm hearing now I just take it that some Native Americans will prohibit it and others will have no problem with this. There at least is plenty of visual documentation of Sun Dances and the sweat lodge ceronomies that preceed it. Theo, Amsterdam —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.162.133.112 (talk) 10:54, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Biased
I'm doing a project, and it doesn't help when Wikipedia's page on the subject of my project uses language clearly supportive of the Sun Dance ritual. Not that it's bad to be supportive of it, but things like 'subjagating Indians' when talking about certain rituals that have been outlawed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lemniwinks (talk • contribs) 01:49, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Well as an American Indian from the Mattaponi. I find it insulting that you don't consider it "Subjagation" when a government of any type "Outlaws" a religious practice just because it isn't inline with that religious governments view. I've done Sundance and wouldn't trade it for anything. As for there being photos & video of Sundance Ceremony ; if there is, then it wasn't an "Authentic" or "Real" ceremony by real indians. Thomas Greywolf - wepunkwteme@yahoo.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.166.1.3 (talk) 21:21, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Some issues
the article has many factual flaws. Women can and do pierce on their chest. Some people pierce but do not tear the piercing out, this is called doing push ups.

NO pictures, sketches or videos are supposed to be taken of the ritual, people who are meant to know will eventually go to a sundance. The people who do are commodifying the culture. Every sun dance is different, because the sun dance chief creates their sun dance based on a vision and the direction of their spiritual mentors.

This whole article is very weak because anyone who knows anything about a sundance and cares about it is not going to write about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexrevpaterson (talk • contribs) 21:15, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Sun Dance vs sun dance
Which letters are capitalized in that expression? Twipley (talk) 20:23, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Personally I think the correct form is "sun dance" -- any objections? Twipley (talk) 00:47, 19 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I've seen every imaginable variation. I don't think there's a standard agreement, even among people from the same Nation. - Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 00:56, 19 November 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, I just checked some writings by authorized ceremonial people who have the Sun Dance. While there are variations (some use "Sundance"), I'd say "Sun Dance" is the form to use. - Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 01:10, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Imagery
Per multiple complaints, I'm removing any photographs, or links to photographs/videos that claim to be taken at real ceremonies. I'm leaving the drawing for now, though I have mixed feelings about it. I think the gathering photo is acceptable as it is taken from outside the arbor. - Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 01:25, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Please do. I also like the disclaimer that you have been adding to sensitive religious article – thanks! -Uyvsdi (talk) 23:10, 22 November 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Disclaimer

 * I have a problem with the disclaimer. Wikipedia doesn't have disclaimers, for one thing, and Wikipedia isn't a how-to, so it's also redundant.  Where is the discussion on including this in select articles, as you appear to have been doing? Exploding Boy (talk) 23:16, 22 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Someone else added the first one. I thought it was a reasonable thing to do, especially as we have a problem with people posting things about ceremonies (whether or not they know what they're talking about, whether or not they have any understanding of what is and isn't appropriate to post on the Internet). The text for the disclaimer was originally in the text of the lede. Another editor pulled it out and made it a topnote. We may not have much (any?) precendence for this on WP, but it seems a way to deal with the conflict between those who want anything and everything posted about ceremonies, and those who would rather there be no articles on these topics at all. Slàn, - Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 00:20, 23 November 2009 (UTC)


 * There's a wide range of disclaimers for wikipedia articles. The Sun Dance is a highly sacred ceremony and much information about it is not culturally appropriate to share with the general public. In fact, non-Indians have been barred from attending Sun Dances among Lakota tribes. A precedent on Wikipedia for not including photos of the Sun Dance is the conscientious lack of False Face Society mask images. -Uyvsdi (talk) 00:59, 23 November 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi


 * Not really. See No disclaimers in articles.  All Wikipedia articles have a disclaimer: it is located at the bottom of this page and every page on the site.  Other disclaimers are to be removed.  What you seem to be attempting to do is to prevent people from adding certain information to the article.  You could place this hidden at the top of the article, but the better approach would be to engage in discussion and reach consensus on what should and should not be in the article here on the discussion page.


 * Wikipedia is not a how-to guide; this is a policy that has long been established, so there should be zero controversy with removing how-tos from this or any article.


 * As for the problem with "people posting things about ceremonies (whether or not they know what they're talking about, whether or not they have any understanding of what is and isn't appropriate," that is a general issue with Wikipedia; anyone can edit articles, and not every editor is an expert. Again, the way to deal with this is via discussion on the talk page.


 * Regarding some people who would rather there be no articles on these topics at all, there is someone who feels that way about every Wikipedia article, but we don't select our content on those grounds. For instance, we have articles about other sacred ceremonies, and about things some people find highly offensive (including the article on the Jyllands-Posten cartoons, which has reproductions of all the images in question.  As for False Face Society mask images, a parallel on Wikipedia might be the Mohammad article: Muslims generally consider images of Mohammad to be taboo, yet the article contains several of them.  Exploding Boy (talk) 01:15, 23 November 2009 (UTC)


 * The current consensus is that templates that warn about objectionable content should "generally" be removed. This is not a content warning; it's more about acknowledging cultural and religious beliefs/standards - which is very relevant to an understanding of Sun Dance. Perhaps we should include more content about not filming or writing about ceremonies, integrating it back into the text the way it was before it was converted into a hatnote. I don't think simply removing the content is the answer. - Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 17:39, 23 November 2009 (UTC)


 * We can include well-sourced information in the article if it's needed. Exploding Boy (talk) 19:03, 23 November 2009 (UTC)