Talk:Sunderland/Archive 1

Diversity
In addition to Sunderland being a fantastic warm and friendly place to live, it is also very diverse and does have an ever growing Gay Population. Visit www.freewebs.com/sunderlandgay/

Status
A City????? how can you have a city without a cathedral?,never mind a cinema


 * I think Sunderland's sheer size was the basis for its gaining city status.

A quesion like this must come from a Novocastrian. Is this fine Parliamentary City being denigrated by a citizen of that Royalist Tyneside hamlet. We whose fame and wealth derive from the honest toil of our worthy citizens and a love of Lord Protector Cromwell and not royal monopolies? :)  garryq 12:17, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Flying Boats
I'm pretty sure that Sunderland was the last name of one of the developers of the sunderland flying boat. I can't find any source other than Wikipedia, indicating that the craft was named after the city of Sunderland. (I remember my grandfather telling me stories about meeting Sunderland in a restauraunt by chance after the war.) Could someone verify the origin of the name for the Sunderland. Is there another amphibious aircraft with the name of Sunderland? Sennheiser! 17:42, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I posted this question to rec.aviation.military and got a response: Here is an abridged version of the response i got: > > "Edward Senft" I'm pretty sure that Sunderland was the > last name of > > one of the designers of the sunderland flying boat. I > > can't find any source other than a Wikipedia article > > concerning the origin of the name. This article indicates that > > that the craft was named after the city of Sunderland. I believe this > > is incorrect, however. (I remember my grandfather telling me stories > > about > > meeting Sunderland and talking about the flying boat he designed.) > > Could someone verify the origin of the name for the Sunderland. Thank > > you for your time! > > > > Edward Senft > > Short named its aircraft after cities, i.e. > Singapore, Sunderland, Seaford,Stirling > Close. Brit Flying boats of the time were named after "Coastal towns and seaports of the British Empire". Alliterative names were preferred, and if there was indeed a Mr Sunderland on the design team, then I wouldn't be that surprised. Officially, it would be after the town. A quick google didn't bring up any mention of a Mr Sunderland at Short however, and it is the sort of thing that you would expect to get mentioned in passing.

Sunderland and County Durham
As the convention notes Tyne & Wear exists as a county I haved changed "urban area" to "metropolitan County".

The city cannot be in two counties, so I have changed "is part of the traditional county" to "was part of the traditional county".

I have tidied the attempt to describe a part of the city and its population.

I have also changed "metropolitan borough" to "metropolitan district". The UK Local Government Act 1972 created "districts". Urban areas could petition the Queen to become known as boroughs or cities, as appropriate. Thus Sunderland was known as a Borough from 1974-1992, and a City since then. Metropoolitan district thus covers areas with disparate nomenclature.

I want to put a copy of the City's coat of arms on this page. Any objections? I'm sure no permission is needed to display the arms, unless its done so as to make it appear that wikipedia is the City of Sunderland :) Nevertheless I have asked the City Solicitor for permission, as the photograph may be seperately copyright.

garryq 23:44, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC) aka Me


 * "Was in the traditional county" makes no sense. Sunderland was in the administrative county of Durham, but it remains in the traditional county. Places can certainly be in more than one "county" - a fact evidenced by the frequent (and necessary) distinction between 'ceremonial counties' and 'administrative counties' made in many other articles (and not by me!). Traditional, administrative, ceremonial and registration counties are all completely different entities, and naturally they are not necessarily the same for any given town or city.
 * I conceed that 'Tyne and Wear' technically wasn't abolished, so I have linked metropolitan county. 80.255 17:08, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I disagree. The "traditional" County Durham is not an area that exists of itself. It is merely a term that describes the county before 1974. Despite the claims of the ABC, that county has ceased to exist. Thus, Sunderland was part of county Durham; it is now part of Tyne and Wear County. The fact that the feudal system relied on natural features for boundaries does not give the old counties immortality. Almost all counties came existence as administrative counties. Cornwall, a Celtic nation, is an exception, but perhaps the village pump is a better place to discuss that concept for the whole of England. Claiming that the frequent (and necessary) distinction between 'ceremonial counties' and 'administrative counties' made in many other articles confirms your contention that "traditional" County Durham exists and can be described in the present tense is either incomplete or worthless. Again, an argument I am developing to discuss elsewhere, rather than restrict it to this City's page. garryq 11:44, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * Whether you like it or not, the traditional county of Durham (such that was used for administrative purposes prior to 1888) has never been abolished. Hence it exists (as all legal entities that have never been abolished do, de jure). The term "traditional county" does not refer to pre-1974 administrative boundaries - these were administrative counties - different entities in their own right (which 1888 legislation explicitly implied co-existed with historic (of "ancient") counties) that differed in many respects from the historic counties with which they shared a name. If you want to refer to 1888-1974 administrative boundaries, then write 1888-1974 administrative counties - don't write trdaitional/historic counties because the boundaries of these are not the same! 80.255 00:16, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Moving
Why exacly has this been moved from 'Sunderland' to 'City of Sunderland' no other page about a city has been moved like this. G-Man 11:33, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * There is another settlement (a tiny village) called "Sunderland" in Northumberlamd, although I hardly think it merits the main article space. However, if Sunderland is technically now called "City of Sunderland" and the article should carry this name. 80.255 00:20, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I moved it because there are several other Sunderlands - along with North Sunderland, Sunderland Bridge etc. They do not warrant individual articles, although I should get an article on them combined, then change the redirect to a first sentence reference. garryq 09:25, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Well surely anyone looking up 'Sunderland' is by far most likely to mean the city in the North East rather than any other place called Sunderland. If there are other places called Sunderland then you should set up a disambiguation page and link it to the main Sunderland article. G-Man 22:08, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Old County Durham is no more
No matter what the traditionalists and apologists of the ABC et al think, the traditional County Durham does not exist. References to it in the present tense are senseless. The item I have reverted today had to stand logic, and previous claims, on their head in order to push this antediluvian view, not only made this present tense reference but inserted a mention of the administrative county.

Sunderland was not administered by County Durham. So was not part of the administrative county.

The absolute right to decide these boundaries rests with the Queen-in-Parliament. Anything else must be in the past. Are we to abandon fact for a refusal to admit changes happen? Are we now to refer to Monmouthshire in Wales, in the traditional borders of England? Is or was Danzig in Germany? Sunderland is in the United Kingdom, which still exists as a legal entity, is in Great Britain, which still exists as a legal entity, is in England, which still exists as a legal entity, it was in The Kingdom of Northumbria, which no longer exists, and it was County Durham, which no longer exists in its previous form.


 * Please sign your comments. Whether Danzig is part of germany is determined by law; you rightly observe that it is not currently. Similarly the status of the counties is determined by law. The law has been very clear in never abolishing them. This is nothing to do with being "anti-change" - but simply accepting the fact that entities that have never been abolished continue to exist, de jure! Queen and parliament have many times stated that the traditional counties have never been abolished. Although it is true that such statements are not legally binding on their own, do you really believe that they were all deliberate lies?
 * Further, please see my responses at talk:Gloucestershire. Best regards, 80.255 23:53, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Population/Alice in Wonderland
With the incorporation in 1992 and award of city status Sunderland's population stands at 295,000 making it the largest city in the North East.

Some mention should be made of the substantial links between Sunderland and the Dobson family that inspired the Alice in Wonderland stories.

Garryq, I have rearranged the piece, added and amended. I hope you approve. I'll be back to tidy up after my brain has had a rest.I have included information about Lewis Carroll. I'm not sure I've come across the Dobsons in the literature about Carroll at Whitburn Emmet 19.08 10 June 2005
 * _________________________________________________________________

Later: I've done my bit. I think Sunderland football club fits in here. The rest mostly consists of minor, but interesting I hope, additions. I think it's amazing that a woman like Gertrude Bell doesn't get her due. She was anti-suffragette, perhaps that's why. She was a friend of Lawrence of Arabia and practically founded modern Iraq. The great museum in Baghdad so much in the news was founded by her. I'll have to write it myself. All good wishes.

Emmet 13.54 12 June 2005

I've just realised that Gertrude Bell is in - under that name.

Emmet 15.17  12 June 2005

Jewish community
Is there any significant Jewish community outside the City of Sunderland in Tyne and Wear? Everton 08:56, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Yep - there's a good few in Gateshead, along with a jewish school, college and shops. See Gateshead Jewry for more details. Chelsea 22:57, 25 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I'd just like to know why exactly the "Jewish Community" is mentioned at all? The article states that in 2001 there were 114 registered Jews - 114 out of a population of 300,000 is such an insultingly small percentage that one wonders why it was ever mentioned in the first place. One would further imagine there are more than 114 Pakistanis in Sunderland, or more than 114 Bangladeshis - why therefore is there mention of the almost non-existent "Jewish Community" and no others? What is so special about these 114 Jews that they deserve special mention?

I agree. Someone has done this for all the north east towns, where in fact only Gateshead has a significant Jewish history and population that requires a section of its own. Personally I'm in favour of deleting the whole section wholesale as it is utterly irrelevant and misrepresentative. Anyone accessing this page would first be led to believe Sunderland was a majot Jewish settlement, then on reading the page would come to the conclusion that the page is useless as it contains a large tract on a tiny fraction of a percentage of the population! I'll trim it down significantly and see what happens --SandyDancer 09:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

OK I have deleted the larger section and taken the few salient facts and placed them in the "Other Facts" section, in the interest of retaining useful information in an appropriate manner whilst removing the irrelevant material that served to distort the article. --SandyDancer 09:58, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Guys. Just passing by. A few years back there was an exhibition on the Jewish community of Sunderland at the museum/art gallery. The Jewish community peaked at around 6,000 in the early twentieth century - I vaguely recall that its growth was something to do with the Baltic timber trade. Note the large synagogue on the Stockton Road as a memory of that period. The Sunderland community was very secular and it proved vulnerable to dispersal and assimilation. The Gateshead community is strictly Orthodox, and it has proved more resilient.

The article includes the following "... Sunderland has a strikingly low percentage of residents of Black or Minority Ethnic (BME) background at less than 1% ...". That might have been true even 20 years ago. But I doubt it is true now. The city has a very large Bangladeshi community. If anyone doubts that, just take a look at the kids coming out of Thornhill School of an evening. BScar23625 21:04, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Creative cities
The Boho survey placing Sunderland as Britain's least creative city was based on three criteria.

1. Number of ethnic minority residents

2. Number of gay residents

3. Number of patent applications

The first two seem utterly irrelevant and devalue the whole enterprise. To put this in the Wikipedia article simply denigrates Sunderland for no reason.

Nor is Sunderland 'notionally' a city. It is officially a city. There are other cities without a cathedral (or an airport) e.g. Wolverhampton, Brighton. Other towns and cities have upgraded polytechnics, without any slur being implied. Northumbria in Newcastle is very highly rated.

Is all this a deliberate vandalism?

I propose to edit.

Bandalore 17:48, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Obviously creativity is based on ethnicity and sexual preference?????????!!!!!! Stupidest criteria I've ever seen.

~The methodology of the survey is contentious, certainly, but is the subject of serious academic debate and the findings were quite widely reported in the national press. It can be disputed but cannot simply be dismissed as "stupid" because it displeases you. I would contend that those ranked most highly in this survey, whether by coincidence or not, turn out to be worthy pretenders to the title.

Furthermore, that this was reported is fact. It is more appropriate to refute this than delete it.

"It can be disputed but cannot simply be dismissed as "stupid" because it displeases you."


 * Well ok, I hereby suggest that creativity is based on the number of chocolate donuts a person eats. Its no less relevant than what gender the person you sleep with is or what colour you are!! Nothing but arbitary points of reference in this survey and a straw man attack on Sunderland as a city. BTW please define creativity? Excatly what are we being judged on?? I doubt that many serious academics would take this seriously. Straw men attacks generally do not get tolerated at University level.

If this spurious and tendentious 'survey' is inserted again. I shall appeal to a higher power.

~It has been inserted again, and I've deleted it. If it is inserted once more I will do something entirely sinister. I have never heard of anything more ridiculous in all of my living days. Use some common sense rather than blindly following readings please.~ SAFCjl 23:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Bandalore 18.51 9 April 2006

~Why not include a link to the debate surrounding the author (I forget the name)? It is contentious but has generated some serious academic debate and cannot simply be dismissed as spurious.

Polls and surveys appear every day in the press. That's a fact which can't be denied, but there's no reason to take them seriously enough to include them in an encyclopaedia article, especially when the methodology is suspect. The Boho one is not at all 'contentious' in my view. It's self-evidently absurd. Put a link in yourself if you think it's worth it.

I have seen a survey which indicated that Sunderland University was a leading centre for the study of artificial intelligence. Another, very recent one in the Nursing Times, stated that Sunderland Primary Care Trust was the best in the country for training nurses. These are also facts but you choose to highlight one which denigrates Sunderland.

I might add that you have not explained why you called Sunderland 'notionally' a city. That reads like a deliberate slur. I've left the BNP remark in, although it seem Sunderland is not so very special in that either!

Bandalore 23.39 27 April 2006

~If you find the "boho survey" absurd then it would be worthwhile posting references to undermine it. To my mind, there is a certain logic in linking "creativity" with demographic diversity, though I freely concede that the methodology is questionable. I described Sunderland as "notionally" a city as in common with some other recently elected cities there are tradtional criteria which are unfulfilled. "Cityhood" is an interesting concept as there are any number of large towns which do not qualify for the official title but several quite small settlements which do. As for BNP support, it is a curious phenomenon in Sunderland and one which is not commonly found in other cities. You have yet to post any sound arguments against these aspects that you appear to find unpalatable.

Nah, no London Council Ward has ever voted for a BNP member!!??!??!?!? Unbelievable.

The only criteria of "cityhood" required is a royal charter, and Sunderland got one of those in 1992. Other than that, you could be talking about the lack of Cathedral? Something which Birmingham, Leeds and Nottingham all lack - nothing 'notional' about those cities. John the mackem 23:30, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

~John: traditionally, cathedrals and universities are mentioned. Birmingham, Leeds and Nottingham all have long-established universities and also all have cathedrals, albeit Catholic ones only in the latter two cases.

John is right, though the cathedral/university idea is a common misconception. No English city apart from Oxford and Cambridge had a university before Durham joined them in 1832, so all other universities are even later - and many are very modern. This university business is really a red herring. In fact Cambridge itself only became a city in 1951. And it hasn't got a cathedral.

All the dozen or so pre-record ancient English cities had cathedrals, but old cities like Newcastle (incorporated 1080) didn't have a cathedral so-called until 1882.Hull and Leeds didn't either. There are some 50 English cities now and quite a few have no cathedral - Preston; Brighton; Wolverhampton; Salford; Stoke; Southampton etc. And Sunderland. As I remarked above, to single Sunderland out seems invidious.

Bandalore 22.48 9 May  2006

Good company then given that none of these would generally be thought of as cities, recent changes in status not having yet thoroughly penetrated the general consciousness. As for universities - establishment in England coincident with Industrial Revolution - hence one can see how the association might arise as previously irrelevant due to shortage of real "cities". See also Wikipedia entry for cities.81.1.123.175 00:43, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Mackem
We are called makems because that is how we pronounce the word make - "mack" (and similarly with take - "tack"). There's no great mystery.

In the first section of the article, the mention of the derogatory use of the word Mackem to indicate that ships were made in Sunderland only for a richer world to take them away makes very little sense. That's what manufacturing industry does, the way profits are made. Why should Newcastle shipbuilders have thought they were being derogatory when Newcastle ships were 'taken' in the same way? Should Sunderland have held on to these ships? There were a great many ships owned in Sunderland anyway.

A far more likely reason is that, on the whole, Sunderland produced workaday ships of relatively small tonnage. There were no glamorous liners, great warships etc. of the sort that were produced on the Tyne. Hence the rather supercilious Tyneside description.

Bandalore 23.29 28 April 2006

I'll rewrite this

Bandalore 18.32 1 May  2006