Talk:Sundrum Castle/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Hog Farm (talk · contribs) 18:16, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Will review soon. Hog Farm Talk 18:16, 31 August 2022 (UTC)


 * "and is considered one of the oldest inhabited castles in Scotland" - should appear in body as well as lead
 * "and is considered one of the oldest inhabited castles in Scotland" - secondary comment - I'm not sure that the website of the people promoting the castle is a great source for this sort of claim
 * I'll remove these. The only other sources I found to support this claim were promotional. CollectiveSolidarity (talk) 18:48, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you . I agree probably best to have removed it. I can't find a reliable source that pre-dates the original website source I used, and used the Millar ref again earlier in the paragraph. -Kj cheetham (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "The name Sundrum is thought to come from the word "sonndruim", meaning "ridge of trees". The tower was at a time thought to have Pictish origins, but there is no mention of it before the start of the 14th century. This factoid may have been popularised by Robert Burns" - not supported by the source
 * I've added another ref for the word meaning. I couldn't find a reliable ref saying it was popularised by Robert Burns, so I've changed to just say it was referred to that. -Kj cheetham (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "(sometimes written as Cathkert)" - not in source, can probably be removed
 * I think I must have gotten that from a genealogy website, which is perhaps not reliable, so duly removed. -Kj cheetham (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure that ScotsClans is a reliable source. Appears to be some sort of sales site?
 * It seems to be a family run business. I've just posted a query to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Clans of Scotland for clarification as I'm not 100% sure if it's considered a RS. -Kj cheetham (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Based on Reliable sources/Noticeboard it seems now, so I've removed that plus the date and mention of Greenock from it. I've added another ref regarding the Hamiltons of Sundrum family though. -Kj cheetham (talk) 18:35, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "In the 1790s the Hamiltons were responsible for carrying out extensive alterations to the site, including building the Hamilton Wing and the clock tower. The castle was incorporated into the present mansion in 1792." - not finding this in the source
 * I've added a reference for the 2nd sentance. I need to follow-up on the first sentance to find where I read about it... -Kj cheetham (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Now clarified. -Kj cheetham (talk) 13:33, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Castles sometimes served military purposes - any indication that this is the case here?
 * I've not seen much any mention of it. Given the thickness of the walls of the original 14th century keep I assume it must have been, but I have no sources to support that. -Kj cheetham (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "McGinn, Clark. "Chapter 92: Burns and Slavery". In Shaw, Frank R. (ed.). Robert Burns Lives!. www.electricscotland.com." - unconvinced that this is RS
 * Looking at WikiProject_Clans_of_Scotland/Resources it says "be wary of this". The page I used as a reference seems to be a contributed essay, which I'd taken as being more reliable than just a random page on the site. -Kj cheetham (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "The family were also involved in reducing the rent of William Burnes, father of the poet Robert Burns.[1][12] The Hamiltons of Sundrum were heavily involved in both the sugar and slavery industries, including part-owning the Pemberton Valley sugar plantation situated in Jamaica.[12][13][14] After the abolition of slavery in the British West Indies in 1833, Colonel Alexander West Hamilton, brother of John Hamilton, arranged for a child from the plantation to be brought to Scotland to obtain schooling and learn a trade. This child, Alexander Waters, learned to be a stone mason, and eventually started his own family settled on the Sundrum estate.[13][15]" - this all seems rather tangential to the main article subject of the castle
 * I thought the Robert Burns link was interesting. I've just edited it a bit to clarify it was whilst the Hamiltons were at Sundrum. I can remove it if you feel it's too tangential though.
 * The note about sugar and slavery I thought was important as that was how the upkeep of the castle was funded if I remember correctly. I need to check the sources again to confirm this.
 * I've added an extra sentance with an additional ref to support this. -Kj cheetham (talk) 21:56, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Regarding Alexander Waters, that's also perhaps a bit tangential as he ended up working and living on the Sundrum estate, whilst the Hamiltons were in the castle, but as it's only a couple of sentances didn't think it was too WP:UNDUE. Again though, I'm happy to remove that part if you think it's better without it. -Kj cheetham (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Anything significant to the castle itself occur in the 1800s?
 * The only things I found from that century were about the Hamiltons are people rather than the castle itself. -Kj cheetham (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
 * " "Geograph:: Claude Hamilton Memorial Hall © Mary and Angus Hogg". www.geograph.org.uk." - looks to be a personal website. Not sure that it's RS
 * That webpage cited a book, so as per WP:SAYWHEREYOUREADIT I've already the ref to make that clearer. I'll also see if I can get hold of a copy of that book myself too. -Kj cheetham (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I now own the Dane book, so I've been able to reference the exact page. I also added a sentance to the end of the previous section about Claud Hamilton's marriage which resulted in the clock tower, so there is some 1800s activity in the end. -Kj cheetham (talk) 13:33, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "Wallace Tower, the castle's keep, is currently owned by landlords Graham and Patricia Cathcart Waddington" - source is from 2018, so recommend stating that year instead of "currently"
 * Done. -Kj cheetham (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "There was a small prison pit, which is now sealed off."- not seeing this in the archived webpage, and the original won't open for me (I'm in the States, so maybe that's affecting things)
 * Another ref added. -Kj cheetham (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "(This is distinct from the similarly named Hamilton Wing at Belle Isle Estate.) " - not noting a mention of Belle Isle in the source
 * Removed. -Kj cheetham (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Once these get addressed or responded to, I'll take another look Hog Farm Talk 02:21, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I'm offline for a couple of days now, but will make a start responding to these early next week. -Kj cheetham (talk) 16:36, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I've responded to most of your comments, but there's still a couple of things I need more time to check again. -Kj cheetham (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
 * It's over to you I think again now. Thanks. -Kj cheetham (talk) 23:05, 7 September 2022 (UTC)


 * " A road in Coylton, Sundrum Park, is associated with slavery and the Hamiltons" - is the road specifically related to the castle? If not, it might be too tangential to mention
 * Removed. -Kj cheetham (talk) 15:40, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
 * geograph.org.uk again - if I'm understanding your above comment correctly, this material is now covered by the Dane cite? If so, then this ref can be lost
 * Removed. -Kj cheetham (talk) 15:40, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The 1971 listing as Category B is mentioned, but not the exact date of 14 April
 * Mentioned. -Kj cheetham (talk) 15:40, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
 * " "Sundrum Castle – Mysterious Britain & Ireland". www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk." - accepts user contributions of material. Not RS. (If all you can get for the alleged haunting is this and Spooky Isles, I'd recommend removal unless Spooky Isles is way more high-profile than it would seem at first glance
 * Removed the mysteriousbritain.co.uk ref. The next sentance ref also mentions it at least, as I don't think Spooky Isles is that high-profile. The Coventry book has a single short sentance mentioning the "Green Lady", so I've added that ref too. -Kj cheetham (talk)
 * ""The Coats House, Sundrum, Ayr". www.kwuk.com." - source no longer links to the right place, seems to be an expired real estate listing. Try the Wayback Machine?
 * That's annoying - it worked last week, and it's not on wayback machine. I've replaced it with another ref though. -Kj cheetham (talk) 15:40, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
 * ""Sundrum Castle :Accommodation". web.archive.org. Archived from the original on 30 November 2020." - publisher is sundrumcastle.com, not web.archive.org
 * Fixed. -Kj cheetham (talk) 15:40, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "Wray, Jacqueline Heron (24 March 2021). "Sundrum and Barclaugh, Ayrshire". Love Living History?." - Wray's personal website. Does she have credentials in this field, or is this just a run-of-the-mill personal website?
 * She's written a book (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/43537693-king-street-to-king-s-road) but not convinced that counts as credentials in this field, is at best an amateur historian. I've added another ref to support it. Happy to remove Wray's website if needed though. -Kj cheetham (talk) 15:40, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The two further reading sources don't need to be listed there as they're both being linked to as sources
 * Removed. -Kj cheetham (talk) 15:40, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

- back to you. It's looking much better this time. Hog Farm Talk 00:24, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you, I think I've answered all your points above now. -Kj cheetham (talk) 15:40, 9 September 2022 (UTC)