Talk:Sung Wong Toi Garden

Ma Tau Chung
 Evidence to show that Sung Wong Toi and Sacred Hill are within the Ma Tau Chung area. The present-day Sung Wong Toi Garden is not far away from Sacred Hill, with some sources saying it's merely 300 feet to the west of its original location, and lies squarely within the same area. Time Out Hong Kong says it's located at "Ma Tau Chung Road, Ma Tau Chung". Meanwhile there are street addresses that are given as "Sung Wong Toi Road, Ma Tau Chung", e.g. the Sky Towers. Sung Wong Toi Garden is on the western end of Sung Wong Toi Road. Please stop removing this entry from Category:Ma Tau Chung unless you are sure no reliable source would exist. Do not disrupt to make a point. 1.64.46.31 (talk) 13:00, 24 January 2021 (UTC)


 * This is a redirect, not article. Discuss at Talk:Sung Wong Toi next time. Also, please provide a reliable source that state "位於 X 的宋皇臺花園/公園" ( X should be Ma Tau Chung if you want to prove it is located in Ma Tau Chung (instead of Ma Tau Chung Road)). However, modern maps does not even has "Ma Tau Chung" as place name. It is a place name belongs to the past. Matthew hk (talk) 13:54, 24 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Also, your maps are from 1900s to 1930s. Just like East Point, it was a place name but it is replaced by Causeway Bay. And Eastern portion of Causeway Bay, in present day (2021), is more commonly known as Tin Hau. Also no one call modern day Tai Po Market as Tai Wo Shi. Matthew hk (talk) 13:59, 24 January 2021 (UTC)


 * While for secondary source (learn the term, it uses a lot along with primary and tertiary inside wikipedia), despite this author i clearly caught his error on Cathay Pacific in another book, but i should not assume rest of his work is entirely wrong. He use Kowloon City for Sung Wong Toi Garden. Matthew hk (talk) 15:02, 24 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Also note that the cat was added by 124.217.189.34 (Special:Diff/1001802319), an ip range that simply blocked due to creating disruption. And the cat is restored by you (Special:Diff/1002388625) with a citation in the edit summary that only proves the government also use Sung Wong Toi Park as the alternative name, without confirming the park is located in Ma Tau Chung.


 * Lastly. Modern day location of the garden is not the same in the past. The Sung Wong Toi wiki article is well stated that the rock was removed from the original location and the whole Sacred Hill was demolished. Thus a photo that proves the original location of Sung Wong Toi / Sacred Hill was in the area that historically known as Ma Tau Chung, is not relevant, since the Sung Wong Toi is moved. Matthew hk (talk) 15:17, 24 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Also, if gwulo.com accepts user upload then it may be a user-generated content (UGC) so that wikipedia is less likely to treat the website itself as a reliable source. The map you cited if able to find the original (not a snippet of it), may prove the present site of Sung Wong Toi Garden was (at 1930s or other day since the snippet of the original map did not have year on it) known as Ma Tau Chung. The map also shown the area around the Hill is reclaimed already, unlike the map from the journal article i cited. I am not sure 1970s Hong Kong maps still label that area as Ma Tau Chung or not, but if they did , then it may be acceptable to place the cat Ma Tau Chung in this redirect (or on related article ). But at first, need to dig out these old 60/70/80 maps.Matthew hk (talk) 09:39, 25 January 2021 (UTC)


 * I guess why the uploader state the map is published in the 1930s, because Kowloon British School (Central British School [of Kowloon]) was moved to the location in the map in the 1930s. And on the map the site was marked as "Reserved for Central British School". But a normal map should have legend so that won't need to guess. Matthew hk (talk) 09:42, 25 January 2021 (UTC)


 * How would a map be "able to find" anything? It isn't a living thing is it? 1.64.46.31 (talk) 19:10, 25 January 2021 (UTC)


 * How could a non-living thing be "able to find" anything? This doesn't sound reasonable. What were you actually trying to say? Would you please clarify? 1.64.46.31 (talk) 19:24, 27 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Who created that category and who placed this article under that category is irrelevant to whether there are sources which suggest that Sung Wong Toi Garden is located in Ma Tau Chung, or whether this article should be placed under that category. As for whether the area is still known by the name Ma Tau Chung, how would you explain the fact that addresses on the western half of Sung Wong Toi Road are still given as Ma Tau Chung, such as the case of the Sky Towers mentioned above, and that the Family Planning Association is calling their clinic there the Ma Tau Chung clinic? Pak Tai Street and Tam Kung Road nearby are also referred to as located in Ma Tau Chung. (It may not be as easy to find "Ma Tau Chung Road, Ma Tau Chung" since its customary to drop the references to neighbourhoods in cases like these, e.g., "Queensway, Admiralty", "Tung Lo Wan Road, Causeway Bay" (if written in characters), "Wan Chai Road, Wan Chai" or "Quarry Bay Street, Quarry Bay".) Yet then Sung Wong Toi Garden itself is referred to as such too by Time Out Hong Kong, as mentioned. One doesn't have to refer to or cite any primary source so as to be able to write the address of any particular location. And, as mentioned, the rock was moved for a mere 300 feet to the west of its original location. Reinstate the category to this article of you are indeed willing to discuss. 1.64.46.31 (talk) 19:08, 25 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Simple. Dig out external source that publish after WWII. The new "native" of the area are arrived after WWII as refugee and the wikipedia should reflect modern usage. (e.g. The current Tai Po Market was known as Tai Wo Shi in 1900s. But in the modern day most people would agreed that Tai Wo equals to the area around Tai Wo Estate only. So did modern map did not even use East Point and substitute by Causeway Bay) The land of Sung Wong Toi Garden was reserved for a Chinese temple and Sung Wong Toi before the WWII, but the actual construction of the garden and relocation of Sung Wong Toi the monument were carried in 1950s. So it is very simple, find a old post-war map and/or news article that wrote "位於馬頭涌的宋皇臺花園/公園" (without the word 路 Road)


 * Also i already mentioned about the reliability of gwulo.com as WP:UGC. Matthew hk (talk) 09:57, 26 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Contemporary people may actually mean to refer to the vicinity of where the existing KCR/East Rail station has been located since the 1980s with "Tai Po Market". Fu Shin Street and its vicinity would be where people would refer to as the Tai Po (New) Market or Tai Wo Shi (which was also just a couple of blocks away from where the station was located until the 1980s), as opposed to the Tai Po Old Market or Tai Po Kau Hui located across the river. Meanwhile, the Cantonese or Chinese name of Ma Tau Chung Road comes with the -dou suffix rather than -lou (the common practice across the border). Most of the maps on Gwulo.com aren't UGC. They are old maps and many of them are already in the public domain. 1.64.46.31 (talk) 19:24, 27 January 2021 (UTC)


 * You may want to take a look at Plan no. L/K10/18/4 of 1957. 219.76.15.135 (talk) 10:26, 26 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Land leases are offline source and mind to quote it? How about this news article? It mentioned that Sacred Hill is in Kowloon City, and the Sung Wong Toi the monunemnt was moved from the hilltop to the foot (presumably the current location). Matthew hk (talk) 11:16, 26 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Also these articles use Kowloon City.     (Note that some of them are about the construction of the garden while some of the are routine mention of the address of the garden. But the news articles proves that when the garden is constructing in the 1950s, newspaper already called "Sung Wong Toi Garden in Kowloon City" in Chinese. Only Ta Kung Pao version is different but hard to tell the context of Ma Tau Chung is the land area or refers to the river mouth. (see below)


 * While this article does not mention the name directly, but has a map that indicated the original location and the current location (File:HK_Ma_Tau_Chung_Road_Sung_Wong_Toi_Garden_Chinese_words.JPG There is a plaque to claim the monument was moved only 300m), and also indicated that the colonial government consulting the residents of Kowloon City not somewhere else. Matthew hk (talk) 11:31, 26 January 2021 (UTC)


 * While Kowloon City District was formed in 1980s and before that there may be some sort of administrative "district", under the predecessor of Home Affairs Department, so that it may need intensive research that, when the news article mentioning Kowloon City, it is refer to the neighbourhood or the district? Or may be at that time Ma Tau Chung village (or the 二王殿村 mentioned in the plaque ) no longer exist and Ma Tau Wai Estate does not exist yet in 1950s. So that why i found is the news article use Kowloon City for the area that Sung Wong Toi Garden is located.


 * Only from this Ta Kung Pao news article, use Ma Tau Chung, Kowloon City district for the location of Sacred Hill.


 * Anyway my interpretation of the reason why the area is called Kowloon City instead of Ma Tau Chung / Ma Tau Wai is WP:OR, but counting news article and book (cited above), unfortunately majority point to Kowloon City. Matthew hk (talk) 11:42, 26 January 2021 (UTC)


 * If you want to go to WP:OR territories. Actually the OZP that the current location of the garden is located, is known as "S/K/10/26" MA TAU KOK OUTLINE ZONING PLAN That covers the neighbourhoods Ma Tau Kok, Ma Tau Wai (centre at the Estate and exclude St. Teresa's Hospital) and Kowloon City (part; include the Carpenter Road and the Walled City park), etc. ( edit: the covered neighbourhoods are according to the OZP website. 09:25, 4 February 2021 (UTC) ) Matthew hk (talk) 11:58, 26 January 2021 (UTC)


 * P.S. Hong Kong Tourism Board list the address of Sung Wong Toi is "Ma Tau Chung Road, Kowloon City, Kowloon". Matthew hk (talk) 14:39, 26 January 2021 (UTC)


 * and i miss the chance to rebut Sky Tower. Midland Realty and Centaline state Sky Tower (傲雲峰), is located in Sung Wong Toi Road, in To Kwa Wan (apparently Centaline merged To Kwa Wan and Ma Tau Kok in their definition ) While Apple Daily use Kowloon City for Sky Tower Matthew hk (talk) 12:10, 26 January 2021 (UTC)


 * 300 metres or 300 feet? Meanwhile as far as I know LK 10/18/4 which 219.76.15.135 mentioned wasn't a land lease. Please demonstrate that you actually understand the subject matter and the relevant materials (and that you are able to communicate effectively) before we may carry on. 1.64.46.31 (talk) 19:40, 31 January 2021 (UTC)


 * According to WP:V, editor need to quote the source themselves if requested. But it may be a territory of original research for interpret such primary source. Also, would "S/K/10/26" have any difference with "LK 10/18/4"? Matthew hk (talk) 09:23, 4 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Some off-topic. The current (enlarged) Ma Tau Kok OZP that also covers Kowloon City probably introduced in 1990s. While the offline WP:primary source "LK 10/18/4", if really need to "cite" it, wiki editor should dig out secondary source that interpret that offline historic doc (and then cite that secondary source), instead of interpret themselves. (Read the guideline WP:No original research) And even want to discuss about it, at least quote or provide some summary, instead of ask other to find that source. Matthew hk (talk) 13:22, 7 March 2021 (UTC)