Talk:Sunil Kumar Verma

Contested deletion
This page should not be speedily deleted because... (your reason here) --Educationtemple (talk) 05:13, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

@ Crisco 1492 has kindly userfied this article with a view to recreation after addition of appropriate new additional references that were discussed in detail in DRV for this Article. Please refer to the DRV and the Talk pages of Crisco 1492 (talk) and Philg88  (talk)

Now the article has been developed according to the discussion held at deletion review, and it is ready now with all new noted information, I request the experienced editors to please move it into "article space" after review. Please help. Educationtemple (talk) 05:13, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I am baffled that this was re-created and even made DYK, without a more thorough review, after having been deleted at AfD and deletion having been endorsed at DRV... There has been some re-writing, so this is not CSD eligible, but I predict another AfD... --Randykitty (talk) 11:06, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Universal primer technology Vs DNA barcoding
Dear Randykitty You have reverted my edit in the article Sunil Kumar Verma where I removed your words "DNA barcoding" as a synonym for Universal primer technology. My reasoning was that it still need to be proved that Universal primer technology and DNA barcoding are  one  and the same indeed. You gave a reasoning that these are "Pretty same". I would like to highlight thatDNA barcoding was described in 2003 for the first time (see article DNA barcoding on wiki). However, Universal primer technology in 2001 (see citations). If they are "pretty similar" and same technologies, then this fact may also be updated on DNA barcoding article on wiki with a mention of the term Universal primer technology of Verma and Singh and the year (2001) in which it was documented. Views? I invite Philg88,  Jim Car ter  and other senior editors to discuss this and reach to a consensus Educationtemple (talk) 14:59, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
 * DNA barcoding seems to be a broader definition than UPT. The latter uses a primer for just one gene. DNA barcoding does the same, but with different genes. So it looks pretty clear to me that UPT is a special case of the class of techniques now known as DNA barcoding. --Randykitty (talk) 15:11, 26 December 2014 (UTC)


 * If this is true then this historical perspective of DNA barcoding must be mentioned on top at DNA barcoding article on wiki since UPT was described and documented much before than DNA barcoding; however, I still feel that this claim (that UPT and DNA barcoding are synonym) need more support from independent reliable sources and that it should not be highlighted on wiki until more supports/citations are available on this issue from independent sources. At present entire world know UPT as UPT and DNA barcoding as DNA barcoding. Educationtemple (talk) 15:19, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I didn't say they are synonymous, I said that UPT seems to be a special case of the more general class of techniques known as DNA barcoding. AS for priority, Verma and Singh obtained a patent in 2001, but didn't publish until 2003, as far as I see. The first article on DNA barcoding also appeared in 2003, I don't know whether they filed for a patent (which would also have been well before publication). There's no patent info in our DNA barcoding article, but that is not too surprising, as we rarely use patents as references (because they are primary sources). --Randykitty (talk) 15:37, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
 * UPT was published online in Oct 3 2002 itself. See This. Moreover, when it comes to scientific invention, the priority date of the patent compared to date of submission of an article is taken as a proof of priority. Priority date for UPT is March 28, 2001 as per this info. That's why I wrote that let the secondary sources discuss this issue first rather than we doing these analyses. Educationtemple (talk) 15:46, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, i got it. What I am saying is that we don't know anything about possible patents for DNA barcoding and when they were filed. If such patents exist, they were filed before 2003, too, but we don't know how long before 2003, so we cannot settle any priority claims. --Randykitty (talk) 15:55, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

If there are no patent filed for DNA barcoding by them before March 2001, then this would mean that the UPT, a version of DNA barcoding was invented by Verma and Singh with the name universal primer technology much before than the known inventors of DNA barcoding! It would change the history. Educationtemple (talk) 16:02, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Comments
This statement in the Lead does not appear to be sourced in the Lead or elsewhere: "This technology has revitalised the field of wildlife forensics and is now routinely used across India to provide a species identification service in cases of wildlife crime." It appears to be his primary claim to notability and is a bold claim that requires really good sourcing. The article also has a lot of awards cited to primary sources, both in a dedicated section and in the bio. Besides that, it looks good at-a-glance. Nice work! CorporateM (Talk) 15:16, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I think that ref #19 is what you are looking for. w.carter -Talk  23:47, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Suggestion for addition of a new section
In 2015, Verma initiated a controversy around Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine award to Tu Youyou for the discovery of the chemical artemisinin and her work on malaria. In his social media post, Verma claimed artemisinin was a variant of artemisin that was already known to Indian scientific community. The post gained significant attention and reported by various news papers.

According to Outlook India's article, "Questions in A Petri Dish: The Nobel for medicine has gone to a Chinese researcher. Has the work of Indian scientists been overlooked", Verma stated “If a minor variant of a well-known compound extracted from a plant found around the world can be given the Nobel, poorer countries will be the losers, as scientists from technologically advanced societies can always find plants with similar chemical compounds elsewhere and extract the ingredient from them. Communities with traditional cures will lose out”. After the article was published, Secterary General of Noble Assemble for Physiology and Medicine also responded.

The controversy abruptly ended when in contrast to Verma's claims, it was realised that artemisinin is not a minor variant of artemisin and the two are entirely different chemicals. Raising a controversy around Nobel prize should be incorporated in a scientists biography. Details of the events are provided in Dr Verma's website.

Amrev (talk) 10:11, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

A short version
A short version that in my opinion covers the topic adequately. Added to article: "In 2015 Verma claimed that the malaria treatment drug artemisinin (initially extracted from Artemisia annua, later synthesized), the discovery of which earned Chinese scientist Tu Youyou the Lasker Award in 2011 and the Nobel Prize in Medicine in 2015, has roots in older traditional medicine from India under the name artemisin, extracted from a different plant species (Hindi: Ajwain) and previously identified as fever-treating. The controversy ended when it was confirmed that the compounds were not chemically related."

— David notMD (talk) 12:14, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Further amendments required in the controversy section
Further amendments are required to tell the main reason for this controversy - confusion between the two names. This is evident from the newspaper articles. Below I quote and cite what exactly the newspapers said. The title has an external link for editors to recheck the statements. They are already inserted as a references but sorry but I don't know how to reinsert already used references. Please take note, that since the discussion on this topic has been started here, the original inflammatory Facebook post (that is mentioned in all news papers cited below) and the page from Sunil Verma's own website has disappeared.

Hans India Hyderabad-based Sunil Kumar Verma has fuelled a debate on the basis of this year's Nobel Prize in medicine awarded to scientist Youyou Tu for the discovery of artemisinin,...... Verma, in his Facebook post, has said artemisinin was a variant of artemisin and it was mentioned in scientific literature published over 100 years ago..... To buttress his claim, Verma uploaded a snapshot of the book titled "Indian Medicinal Plants" published in 1918 by Lieutenant Colonel K.R. Kirtikar and Major B.D. Basu, which documents the use of artemisin to cure "intermittent and remittent fever", the common phrase for malarial fever, till 1880. Challenging the grounds, Verma, principal scientist at Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology (CCMB), questioned: "If the above knowledge is documented in the book named 'Indian Medicinal Plants' written a hundred years ago, how come artemisin became a traditional Chinese medicine and not Indian traditional medicine?" International Business times In his Facebook post dated 7 October, Sunil Kumar Verma, a Hyderabad-based senior scientist has said that artemisinin -- a form of artemisin -- was stated in scientific literature published more than 100 years ago. Zee News Senior scientist from Hyderabad, Dr Sunil Kumar Verma has challenged the basis of giving the Nobel prize to Youyou Tu for the discovery of Artemisinin.. In his Facebook post, Verma, has said artemisinin was a variant of artemisin and it was mentioned in scientific literature published over 100 years ago. Yahoo News Verma, in his Facebook post, has said artemisinin was a variant of artemisin and it was mentioned in scientific literature published over 100 years ago. Challenging the grounds, Verma, principal scientist at Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology (CCMB), questioned: "If the above knowledge is documented in the book named 'Indian Medicinal Plants' written a hundred years ago, how come artemisin became a traditional Chinese medicine and not Indian traditional medicine?" Outlook Dr Sunil Kumar Verma, a senior molecular biologist from Hyderabad, raises a question as a practitioner of science. Was Tu really the first to discover artemisinin as a malaria cure? His view is that artemisinin is a variety of artemisin,…….. A 500-year-old Indian book mentions these plants. And in 1918, B.D. Basu’s Medicinal Plants of India described the plant as curing remittent and intermittent fever- what we now call malaria, says Verma. Something more should have been achieved by Tu Youyou so that her discovery didn’t fall within the domain of previous knowledge. Right now, the award going to China seems like a political rather than a scientific move. ….. Says Verma, “If a minor variant of a well-known compound extracted from a plant found around the world can be given the Nobel, poorer countries will be the losers, as scientists from technologically advanced societies can always find plants with similar chemical compounds elsewhere and extract the ingredient from them. Communities with traditional cures will lose out,” he says……

Based on these sources, it is evident Verma's stirred this international, though short lived, controversy and questioned intentions of Nobel Committee, just because he got confused between the two chemicals. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amrev (talk • contribs) 22:49, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Suggested edit -> insert Verma's claim that "artemisinin was a minor chemical variant of artemisin"
Suggested edit ->
 * In 2015 Verma claimed that the malaria treatment drug artemisinin (initially extracted from Artemisia annua, later synthesized), the discovery of which earned Chinese scientist Tu Youyou the Lasker Award in 2011 and the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 2015, has roots in older traditional medicine from India under the name artemisin, associated with a related Indian plant species (Hindi: Ajwain) and previously identified as fever-treating. Verma's incorrectly claimed that artemisinin was a minor chemical variant of artemisin but produced conclusive evidence that the latter was discovered in 1918 by Indian scientists. Verma's argument was that no single person or country may take credit for a plant-based medicine that arises based on the traditional knowledge on the usage of the specific plant or closely related plant species, that previously existed in many countries.[citation needed]

should also provide structures of both chemicals for comparison.

Original
 * In 2015 Verma claimed that the malaria treatment drug artemisinin (initially extracted from Artemisia annua, later synthesized), the discovery of which earned Chinese scientist Tu Youyou the Lasker Award in 2011 and the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 2015, has roots in older traditional medicine from India under the name artemisin, associated with a related Indian plant species (Hindi: Ajwain) and previously identified as fever-treating. Verma's argument was that no single person or country may take credit for a plant-based medicine that arises based on the traditional knowledge on the usage of the specific plant or closely related plant species, that previously existed in many countries.[citation needed]
 * Julian rich (talk)

Setting the facts right about the concern of Verma on 2015 Nobel to China that Violated the International treaties such as Article 10 of Nagoya Protocol
I humbly submit the following facts which are fully supported by reliable secondary sources as cited with every statement. I strongly feel that some editors are not neutral and just trying to misrepresent Verma's concern over 2015 Nobel to China that violated the International treaties such as Article 10 of Nagoya Protocol of CBD.

I suggest that the concerns in the center of of Verma's objection to 2015 Nobel Prize were not unfounded. I would rather add that Verma was a visionary to visualize the issues much ahead of time, that the scientific communities are now realizing!

Though, it is not in the purview of this encyclopedia to do primary research, but it be worthwhile to cite here this most recent (June 2018) open source publication entitled, "A phylogenetic road map to antimalarial Artemisia species" wherein the authors described that of the 244 Artemisia species found around the world, at least 23, which are used by traditional folks for treatment of fever/intermittent fever including those found and used in India (Artemisia maritima, Artemisia Indica and Artemisia vulgaris) for centuries for this purpose have anti-malarial activity (see this figure from the paper). In this figure, Artemisia species with symbol of mosquito was now found to have proven antimalarial activities as documented in modern literature.

The authors conclude with concern statement that:-

"If novel biological resources are identified, to whom may intellectual rights be assigned? This is a complex ethical issue when knowledge from several cultures is advised, like in the present study. Although creating interdisciplinary bioprospecting efforts can safeguard the ethical aspects of bioprospecting we call for the CBD (Convention on Biological Diversity) and policy makers to formally discuss this issue, in order to be able to fully acknowledge the power of traditional knowledge from local communities."

This is what exactly Verma wrote much ahead of time in his 2015's official letter to CBD (Convention on Biological Diversity), which I could find uploaded on the official website of CBD.

In this purview, I suggest to set right the scientific facts from this discussion as follows and correct the "Controversy" section as below:

Controversy

In 2015 Verma claimed that the malaria treatment drug artemisinin (initially extracted from Artemisia annua, later synthesized), the discovery of which earned Chinese scientist Tu Youyou the Lasker Award in 2011 and the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 2015, has roots in older traditional medicinal plant species of Artemisia (Hindi: Ajavayan, Ajwain) found in India and previously identified as fever treating, Verma cited that artemisinin is a variety of artemisin (Chemically both are Sesquiterpene lactones), and while the former is extracted from A. annua, native to China, the latter is obtained from A. maritima, which is found to grow in India. But both traditional fever curing plants have been named in old Indian treatises on medicine. He further referred that in 1918, B.D. Basu’s Medicinal Plants of India documents this plant as curing ‘remittent and intermittent’ fever—what we now call malaria. As reported by Outlook, a prestigious Indian magazine, Verma raised concerns that if a minor variant of a well-known compound extracted from a plant found around the world can be given the Nobel, poorer countries will be the losers, as scientists from technologically advanced societies can always find plants with similar chemical compounds elsewhere and extract the ingredient from them. Communities with traditional cures will lose out. Notably, this concern of Verma turned out to be true in 2018 with the publication of an open source article by independent group, wherein it was revealed that of the 244 Artemisia species found around the world, at least 23, which are used by traditional folks for treatment of fever/intermittent fever including those found and used in India (Artemisia maritima, Artemisia Indica and Artemisia vulgaris) for centuries for treatment of fever have anti-malarial activity.

In a written official letter to (Convention on Biological Diversity), Verma argued that in order to fairly implement the provisions of Article 10 of Nagoya Protocol on equitable sharing of benefits derived from the utilization of genetic resources and traditional knowledge associated with the genetic resources (such as a plant-based medicine that arises based on the traditional knowledge on the usage of the specific plant or closely related plant species), no single person or country must be allowed to take credit for a genetic resource, or associated traditional knowledge if that previously existed in many countries, merely due to absence of proper documentation, or the inability of a specific country to claim rights on its traditional knowledge due to various reasons such as absence of legal framework. , ,

Notably, the concerns of Verma on fairly assigning the ownership of traditional knowledge and associated benefit sharing under international treaties such as Nagoya Protocol of CBD are now getting attention of scholars. It is worthwhile to mention that both, India and China are Parties to Nagoya Protocol of CBD along with other 105 Countries.

- end of suggested section -

SciFacts007 (talk) 21:27, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

Comment
I full agree and endorse the facts mentioned by Dr Verma and still there is time for the noble committee to modify this mistake as the importance of ajwain has been known in the India since centuries and it's time that people at the helm of affairs recognise this and give due recognition to country (India) concerned — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2409:4054:210E:DE31:0:0:194A:C8A4 (talk) 07:26, 24 September 2018 (UTC)


 * This is not a debate site. As an encyclopedia, we only write a summary of major events in the articles. Furthermore: The Nobel Comity does not read or is influenced by comments left on a Wikipedia article talk page, you have to take the matter directly to them if you want to be heard. cart -Talk  11:29, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

My analyses and Comment
From the wikipedia pages itself on artemisinin and artemisin, it is clear that both of these chemicals belong to a group of chemicals known as Sesquiterpene lactones. I fail to understand, why some new editors are then blaming Verma, the way they are blaming.

Secondly, from the report in Outlook, which is a most reliable secondary source; and 2015 letter of Verma on CBD website, it is clear that Verma's points were quite plain and valid that if the specific usage of a plant genetic resource is known to traditional folks since centuries, then irrespective of the fact whether the folks know about the specific active ingredient, mode of action, modern science of it etc, the appropriate benefit sharing is essentially given to the communities, if such traditional knowledge later get translated into a commercial product/award/reward etc by anyone. This is what Convention on Biological Diversity and its international Nagoya Protocol say. Unfortunately, this did not happen in case of 2015 Nobel Prize to China when they made use of Chinese Artemisia species (related species with similar effect found and known across globe, see the latest 2018 open source paper provided by a user above) for treatment of Malaria (as was also being practiced in India too, and probably other countries too since centuries, without knowing the name of active ingredient responsible for the therapeutic action of this plant) by translating this traditional knowledge using modern tools of science to cure Malaria. This is certainly an international concern, and such practices of not giving any credit to traditional folks should certainly not be allowed in future, otherwise, there will not be any point of having a treatise such as Nagoya protocol in place. Such practices will only lead to flow of information and benefits from resource poor to resource rich countries, which will be a bad example to human civilization.

I appreciate that we are not here to correct or influence the decision of Nobel Committee, but we can at least document the facts and genuine points raised by Verma as such as evident from this entire episode / documented in reliable resources, without misinterpreting and misrepresenting them.

I am surprised to know that Artemisia has more than 200 species and more than 2 dozens of it have antimalarial effects and known to traditional folklore and practitioners of ancient medicines.

14.139.95.68 (talk) 12:35, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

Reply to both above suggested section inclusions
The suggested sections are far too long and detailed for one single event to be used in a biography article. The short summary of this is quite enough. The Wikipedia is not a soapbox or a place for vendettas. If you are so determined to blow this up like this, try instead to make a Draft for a separate article about the controversy and submit it for review to see if it is suitable to include on this encyclopedia. For how to do this, please see Drafts. Right now your persistent aggressive behavior can only be seen as disruptive. --cart -Talk  18:18, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

2015 Nobel Prize Controversy
In 2015 Verma claimed that the malaria treatment drug artemisinin (initially extracted from Artemisia annua, later synthesized), the discovery of which earned Chinese scientist Tu Youyou the Lasker Award in 2011 and the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 2015, has roots in older traditional medicinal plant species of Artemisia (Hindi: Ajavayan, Ajwain) found in India and previously identified as fever treating Verma cited that artemisinin is a variety of artemisin (chemically both are Sesquiterpene lactones), and while the former is extracted from A. annua, native to China, the latter is obtained from A. maritima, which is found to grow in India. But both traditional fever curing plants have been named in old Indian treatises on medicine. He further referred that in 1918, B.D. Basu’s Medicinal Plants of India documents this plant as curing ‘remittent and intermittent’ fever—what we now call malaria. Verma argued that no single person or country may take credit for a plant-based medicine that arises based on the traditional knowledge on the usage of the specific plant or closely related plant species, that previously existed in many countries; and that if a minor variant of a well-known compound extracted from a plant found around the world can be given the Nobel, poorer countries will be the losers, as scientists from technologically advanced societies can always find plants with similar chemical compounds elsewhere and extract the ingredient from them. Communities with traditional cures will lose out. Notably, this concern of Verma was supported by independent researchers in 2018 who revealed that of the 244 Artemisia species found around the world, at least 23, which are used by traditional folks for treatment of fever/intermittent fever including those found and used in India (Artemisia maritima, Artemisia Indica and Artemisia vulgaris) have anti-malarial activity. These authors also concluded that CBD (Convention on Biological Diversity) and policy makers may formally discuss this issue, in order to be able to fully acknowledge the power of traditional knowledge from local communities.

SciFacts007 (talk) 19:34, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

Ongoing Vendetta on the Biography of Sunil Kumar Verma by a single user with different fake accounts
This GA quality Bio from India was recently protected by Editor Bbb23 due to Persistent disruptive editing by a fake user named "Amrev" who confessed on the talk page of Editor W.carter (talk) that he/she has created the fake account only to edit the bio of Sunil Kumar Verma due to personal reasons. The user was warned several times, but the new accounts then started appearing such as "Julian rich" and many other, some of which were later blocked indefinitely by different Admins. Now a new user has appeared with the name "Swift Science Editor" who has been successful in adding some un-reverent stories/structures on this bio as soon as the protection was removed from the page.

This user "Swift Science Editor" has not discussed a single word on the Talk page of this GA class Bio, but started editing. many of his/her edits have already been reverted by senior editors/admins. Wiki may not be a place for personal vendetta!!

If at all it is significant to add this matter in this Bio Article, I have proposed a short, references summary of the content (Please see above section). Senior editors, new or those who have contributed significantly in the past such as Philg88  (talk),  Jim Car ter, W.carter (talk), I JethroBT (talk) may please take a note of this ongoing Vendetta on the Biography of Sunil Kumar Verma by different new/fake accounts.

Though I feel that adding the structures of the chemicals artemisin and artemisinin etc are not relevant for this bio, and it is confusing for common readers; but in any case, I have done few relevant edits in this figure legend as also discussed on the talk page here. Editors are free to edit/delete them if found false - and now I give a rest to my comments on this Bio, and completely leave the matter with Senior Editors/Admins. Thanks.

SciFacts007 (talk) 13:06, 29 September 2018 (UTC)