Talk:Super Mario/Archive 2

Wario Land : Super Mario Land 3 and Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island

 * Comment While I will not take a specific position in this debate, I wish to note that, following more than one revert and displeasing behaviour, I encouraged both editors (ArtistScientist & Darkness2005) to discuss on the Talk page before this escalated in a full-on edit war, and I support this discussion no matter what the resulting consensus is. But I respectfully ask that both parties make a good faith attempt at working out their differences before making any change to the article pertaining to this debate. I am strongly hoping that this process results in a version of the article we can all agree on.   Salvidrim!   03:17, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

This has come up before and requires consensus. To me, portraying these games as separate from the Super Mario series can only be done through the use of personal criteria that are not Wikipedia's place to determine. The most objective way to depict them is the way in which they are labelled, i.e. as Super Mario Land 3 and Super Mario World 2, numerical instalments in the series. Given the name of this article, their inclusion as part of the subject matter is self-explanatory. Their exclusion is a relic of the previous confused scope of the article before it was moved. The extent to which Mario is playable is an arbitrary basis on which to classify these games and its use violates NPOV. Wario Land and Yoshi's Island are overtly and officially part of the Super Mario series, the exact topic of this article. It's right there in their titles. ArtistScientist (talk) 02:56, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Note that this article is not about Mario; it is specifically about the Super Mario titles. ArtistScientist (talk) 05:11, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree with ArtistScientist. The same is done with the Sonic the Hedgehog (series), which I work on quite a bit. There's games like Shadow the Hedgehog or Knuckles Chaotix that, while don't have Sonic playable, still contain characters from the series, and are considered part of the series itself. (There's all sorts of silly fan arguments about if they're "spinoffs" or "main series", or if the story is canon or not, etc, but that's another argument altogether. They're still all recognized as part of the series.) Sergecross73   msg me   23:57, 3 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Shadow the Hedgehog and Knuckles Chaotix, in this situation, are likely more akin to Wario Land 3 and Yoshi Story or Luigi's Mansion in that they star characters within the same expanded universe, but not the main character (Sonic or Mario), and (at least within the scope of this article) these are uncontroversially not within the main series. The argument here is caused by the fact both debated games include Super Mario in their official title, despite not starring Mario.  If anything, it would be similar in situation to a game titled "Sonic the Hedgehog: Tails Adventures", starring Tails undisputably instead of Sonic.  Is it part of the "main series" because it has "Sonic the Hedgehog" in its title, or is it not part of the main series because it doesn't star the main character?  That is the debate being held here. What criteria takes precedence in defining whether a game is part of the "main series": its official title only, or its contents (in this case, who the protagonist is).   Salvidrim!   01:40, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I would think that the fact that the name is in the title is all the more reason why they would be included. It shows "the creators intent" for them to be grouped together. Otherwise, they'd exclude the "Super Mario" part. Sergecross73   msg me   01:58, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * "Main series" is a very POV term subject to fan interpretations, and it's not what we're trying to define the criteria of. It's moot. The scope of this article is not the character Mario, it's the Super Mario video game series. Whether Mario was the focus character in these games, therefore, is of no interest to this article. A game can not simultaneously be specifically numbered as part of a series, and not be part of that series. We're not figuring out why these games were included in the Super Mario Land and Super Mario World series, we're just acknowledging that they were.ArtistScientist (talk) 05:30, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I specifically said that the "main series" stuff was NOT part of my argument. I was saying all the arguments about canon and "main series" was less clear cut, (and frankly I don't care about most of them.) I was saying that while those arguments exist, no one seems to argue that they're not part of "Sonic series". They just argue "to what degree". I'm saying it's similar here. SMW2 is different than a lot of the Super Mario series, sure, but still should be considered part of it none-the-less. Sergecross73   msg me   14:56, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I should have said I was addressing Salvidrim's comments. ArtistScientist (talk) 15:51, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Since there was no opposition here, I have added back the games -- if Darkness2005 reverts without discussion I will ensure it is taken care of.  Salvidrim!   16:04, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I had assumed that it was directed at me because of the way you indented your comment. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Discussion_page#Indentation) Sergecross73   msg me   16:21, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I would consider them part of the series, as the start of their respective series. They are the first games in the Wario and Yoshi universe of games, but are still in the Super Mario series of games. Blake (Talk·Edits) 04:51, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

But there is a restriction about these series, only games made by Shigeru Miyamoto and Takashi Tezuka are take on count. These games, according to the Super Mario History booklet, are:
 * Super Mario Bros.
 * Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels
 * Super Mario Bros. 2
 * Super Mario Bros. 3
 * Super Mario World
 * Super Mario 64
 * Super Mario Sunshine
 * New Super Mario Bros.
 * Super Mario Galaxy
 * New Super Mario Bros. Wii
 * Super Mario Galaxy 2

Super Mario 3D Land also applies to this list, by the way. Note that neither Super Mario Land, it's both sequels and SMW2: Yoshi's Island weren't added into the compilation, well, not even mentioned, thus, are similary based games but by the fact Miyamoto was not involved on their development or Mario was not the central character, these do not belong to the "main" series. --Byll the Wyll (talk) 00:42, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The developed (or team of developers), is this case, does not influence Nintendo's intent to have them be of the same "main" series, as the naming scheme clearly indicates.  Salvidrim!   01:15, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
 * What was the context of this list in the book? Was there a sentence saying "this is a complete list of all games in the "Super Mario" series? Or was it just a list by itself? If it's the latter, it proves nothing, and that's pretty much just your interpretation of things, not a fact... Sergecross73   msg me   04:31, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Isn't that your interpretation as well? it is exacly the same thing we are discussing, that they have similar title or that they belong to the platform genre, doesn't mean they are from the same sub-series, they started a new one so I think we can come up with a solution without removing those games, but neither pairing them with the real main games, isn't that fair? --Byll the Wyll (talk) 20:43, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Whether a game is part of a series or not is not for the player to judge -- it is decided by the company who makes the game. If Rockstar Games made a game called Grand Theft Auto VI, starring a talking toy car and with Falling-block puzzle gameplay, it would nonetheless be part of the GTA series, for one very simple, evident reason -- it is the intention of the game maker's to include it in the series.
 * In this particular case, consider the two games as "pilots" -- part of the overarching series, but introducing new elements (characters, setting, gameplay). If it is well-received, subsequent episodes/games are made in the newly created series (as happened with the Wario Land series).  The fact the game served as an introduction to a new series indicates in no way that it is not completely part of the Super Mario series.   Salvidrim!   21:10, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Well said, Salvidrim. ArtistScientist (talk) 23:16, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Also Byll the Wyll, while these games are included in the article, the article makes it clear in its descriptions that they feature Mario to a lesser extent, so the reader is already being given all the information. ArtistScientist (talk) 23:23, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * @Byl - I'm judging that, by the way you answered my question with another question, that there was no context. But beyond that, my main problem with that list is that it omits not only the 2 games in question, but all 4 of the Super Mario Land titles. You'd be hard pressed to argue that Super Mario Land 2 is not a Super Mario title. As such, I can't imagine justifying using the list to kick out some titles, like SML3, but ignore it and keep other titles, like SML2. Sergecross73   msg me   05:26, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

I have to bring this back up per the recent reverts. Here's an RS for you: Nintendo Power doesn't consider SML3 and SMW2 official Mario games as they don't feature Mario prominently (SMW2 only has you control Mario when a Star is obtained, SML3 only has him as a cameo). I completely disagree with the addition of either game to the article. --Nathan2055talk - contribs 03:26, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * We're not talking about "Mario games". We're talking about the Super Mario series, which includes Super Mario Land 3 and Super Mario World 2. You'll have to seek consensus before reinstating your changes. ArtistScientist (talk) 03:34, 20 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I do not understand how someone can rationally claim that games officially published by the creators with Super Mario in the title are somehow not part of the Super Mario games. Do you imply to know the intent of the games' publisher better than they did?  Salvidrim!   03:37, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I disagree with this notion as well. It seems like the game's official title, from the creator's themselves, would trump any sort of third party classification. Unless you get word from the Dev team, or there's some sort of re-release that title's them differently, I feel they belong. Sergecross73   msg me   12:42, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It isn't the titling that I'm talking about. SML3 is considered the first game in the Wario Land series, which is long-running. SMW2 is the first game in the shorter Yoshi's Island series. As I said above, Nintendo Power (a magazine and reliable source) stated that they don't officially consider either game part of the Super Mario series and canon. And, ArtistScientist, please read the bold, revert, discuss essay. One is to be bold, wait until someone such as myself reverts it, and then have a discussion. I sort of would like to know why a change that reached consensus a year ago was only implemented yesterday. --Nathan2055talk - contribs 18:48, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I checked the rest of the discussion, and Byll mentioned above another list bundled in the 25 Anniversary Super Mario All-Stars pack (which I actually own a copy of, so I can prove this) that the developers state the same thing. --Nathan2055talk - contribs 18:51, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Shigeru Miyamoto explicitly stated in an interview with Game Informer that "[the developers] consider it [Yoshi's Island] to be part of the core Mario series." Shouldn't this end the debate on that game? Source. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 16:26, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Name?
Why not just call this page "Super Mario". None of the games in the series are called just "Super Mario", and the protagonist is called simply "Mario". I can't think of anything else referred to by the title of "Super Mario", and even if it did exist then its page would be called "Super Mario (something)". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.26.13.2 (talk) 14:04, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The article it titled Super Mario (series) because it about the series or games with a title that includes Super Mario.  Salvidrim!   15:01, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Keep an eye on this one...
Just a quick heads-up, has been spamming that long-running Super Mario power-ups were first introduced in Mario spin-offs. Be careful as he seems to refuse to communicate with me. --Nathan2055talk - contribs 23:50, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree that his Youtube sources aren't reliable, but I believe the facts may be not be incorrect. The lack of proper discussion is troubling and I have little first-hand experience with the games themselves but I believe this DOES warrant some research.  Salvidrim!   00:05, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I didn't even know he had any sources at all. All I saw was that he changed a bunch of stuff without any explanation. I'll look into it. --Nathan2055talk - contribs 00:20, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It's not so much that, as much as his additions are usually rather poorly written or trivial, and yet he can be stubborn about pushing it in anyways. (I've had several conflicts with him over the years regarding his contributions/edits at Skull Kid and Wart (character).) In this case, it's more that it's not especially important where they originate from, and the fact that if this is about Super Mario games, we don't need trivia about how they came from non-Super Mario games especially. Sergecross73   msg me   00:26, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, that brings back the whole Super Mario requirements arguments. But, according to Mario Wiki, he's right. See this page and this page. --Nathan2055talk - contribs 01:04, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Unless you're arguing that Mario Party 4 is part of the Super Mario series, it doesn't really bring up those arguments again. But yeah, my problem wasn't so much on whether the info was right or wrong it was that:
 * WP:YOUTUBE can't be used as a reliable source. There are WP:SPS and WP:COPYVIO concerns.
 * His additions were sloppy. For instance, one of his edits made it read: The Mega Mushroom is a more recent recurring item in the series which debuted in Mario Party 4... While the first appearance of the Mega Mushroom was in New Super Mario Bros. Its contradictory. Sergecross73   msg me   01:46, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, THAT edit was trash. But, I'm not arguing that MP4 is a Super Mario game, it's definitely part of the greater Mario franchise. Can anyone think of a way to add that information without saying that it's a Super Mario game? --Nathan2055talk - contribs 18:31, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with how it is now; I'm not sure the "origins of various items" is necessarily info needed here. Sergecross73   msg me   18:46, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I am not sure. I think if you are discussing the items, then their origins would be a good thing to add. But, in the context of this article, you have a point that it doesn't pertain to the Super Mario series specifically. Generally, I would agree to a split of the items if there were sources, or even a Universe of Mario article. That would take out a lot of the content from this article, although I wasn't a supporter of this split in the first place. I think you could delete this whole article, rewrite it from scratch, and it would be much better. Same thing with Mario (franchise). The content in these articles is very messy and could be handled very differently. Blake (Talk·Edits) 23:27, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Especially in light of the recent "what constitutes a Super Mario game" argument, I have to agree. --Nathan2055talk - contribs 00:21, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I know, all this page has been is a heap of trouble. Not to mention, the way the split was done, all the old history is in this series article, not the franchise one. The problem with all these Mario articles, is that they are so massive, it is hard to effectively fix them. There would have to be a consensus on a new overall layout, and a collaboration of improving the various content. Blake (Talk·Edits) 00:34, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, this is roughly how I feel too. It's been one of those articles that is in pretty rough shape, but it's always seemed like too much of an undertaking to start to clean up, and I'm not sure how exactly I'd organize it anyways. It has taken a ton of work to clean up and maintain the Sonic (series) and Tales (series), due to the large scope, constant additions of misinformation, and the fact that there really isn't a template on how to do a good "series" article like there is for a general video game article. Sergecross73   msg me   02:08, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Super Mario vs Super Mario Bros
I see the name has been discussed before, but is Super Mario and Super Mario Bros. really considered the same series? All Super Mario Bros. games are in 2D while all the Super Mario games are (mainly) in 3D with a few 2D sections thrown in (as in Super Mario Galaxy 2). To me, comparing Super Mario with Super Mario Bros. is like comparing Super Mario with Mario Kart. They're two different series. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LonelyGreyWolf (talk • contribs) 08:56, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Ok, if you ask me, they are the same series. I can see that no game starting with Super Mario Bros. is 3D, but Super Mario World is 2D! Anyway, I think they are the same series, so if this was a vote, No split. Sorry, if I offended you. Darrman (talk) 10:05, 5 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Game series evolve over time. Grand Theft Auto started as a top-down, overhead perspective game and transitioned into a fully 3D one. Super Mario 64 was a direct continuation of the NES and SNES series, and the New Super Mario Bros. series attempts to recreate the gameplay of the original SMB. ArtistScientist (talk) 11:24, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

If all of these have 'super' in the game title. If these are ALL 2D games then: Super Mario(2D)

If these contain 3D games then: Super Mario If some lack 'super', then remove super from the title.

TheUnknownNinjaNN2(Talk,Always willing to discuss this subject) 23:10, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Why is text in boxes?????

TheUnknownNinjaNN2(Talk,Always willing to discuss this subject) 23:10, 26 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I say "no split" as well, unless there's substantial examples of Nintendo referring to them as separate franchises. (Boxes like that appear when spaces appear before text on a given line.) Sergecross73   msg me   03:33, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Super Mario galaxy, 64, and sunshine are a different series. The entire concept is different. One is 'get to the flag' the other is 'solve puzzles to collect stars'. Yeah, they feature Mario, but then why not throw in every game where you play as Mario in an adventure?

TheUnknownNinjaNN2(Talk,Always willing to discuss this subject) 05:25, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
 * See, we can't go down that road though, or we can just as easily pick apart things further. "Sunshine is different because you spray water!", "64 is different because you jump into paintings!". Which is why we instead let official word by Nintendo or reliable sources determine things like these... Sergecross73   msg me   19:51, 27 May 2013 (UTC)


 * All game series have different gadgets and gizmos for each game. The key factor is how the levels are arranged and what the goal is, in general, for each level.


 * TheUnknownNinjaNN2(Talk,Always willing to discuss this subject) 21:09, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Like many of our arguments boil down to on Wikipedia, you're going to need sources/proof if you want to sway anyone on changing. We don't just observe characteristics of games, and make them into our own sub-series. We go by titling, or how the creators/developers/companies arrange them. Sergecross73   msg me   21:16, 27 May 2013 (UTC)


 * You assume that I am trying to sway you. I was just trying to end their argument. I saw a post on the main nintendo page asking for help here. Something about reviews? Anyway, I just figured they were talking about here. Also, my point is that they are completely different playing styles and concepts. By definition, they can't be in the same series. It would break all the rules.
 * TheUnknownNinjaNN2(Talk,Always willing to discuss this subject) 05:23, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * That is deduction, which is original research. No split is my vote. Unless Nintendo themselves or some other reliable resource states that Super Mario Bros. is a separate subseries of the whole "Super Mario" series, then the article should be left as is. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 05:37, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I want to ask what these "definitions" and "rules" are, but I'm afraid its just going to lead to more OR-based discussions... Sergecross73   msg me   13:22, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

It is really simple: a game in the same series must be similar to other games in the series.

Franchises are more complex (not even sure if I am right). They are a set of series featuring the same main characters (with different storylines) in the same genre (in this case: action adventure).

I vote NO on a split. I vote YES on changing the title.

TheUnknownNinjaNN2(Talk,Always willing to discuss this subject) 20:36, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * What would you change the title to? Sergecross73   msg me   20:49, 28 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I have been thinking, and I decided on: Mario Platforming Games or Platforming Games Featuring Mario. This will eliminate all issues of series, and it does not use OR. As all the games are either 2D or 3D platforming games.
 * TheUnknownNinjaNN2(Talk,Always willing to discuss this subject) 20:57, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * That name strongly goes against WP:COMMONNAME. Sergecross73   msg me   22:13, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Speaking of common names and on this topic, I suggested in the peer review that this article drop its disambiguation (to "Super Mario") since it is the common name for the series (and not the character). czar  &middot;   &middot;  23:00, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, you might want to do a RM or RFC on that, since this article affects so many others, but I suppose you do have a point. Sergecross73   msg me   23:38, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, any title is fine, as long as it does not portray them as a series. I figured my title was a bit clunky, but it meant to be taken as something along those lines. Also, may I point out that "Mario Platforming Games" is quite clear and no longer than any other title.


 * TheUnknownNinjaNN2(Talk,Always willing to discuss this subject)
 * These series articles are usually just≠ a generic form of the games that they entail though. You'll note its "Final Fantasy" not something like "Final Fantasy Role-playing games. Same goes for Mass Effect, Dragon Quest, Rune Factory, etc etc. That's a fine desciption, just not a good article name. Sergecross73   msg me   23:38, 28 May 2013 (UTC)


 * The problem here is that IT IS NOT A SERIES. Therefore, use a title that does not call it a series.


 * also, why did my sig change?


 * TheUnknownNinjaNN2(Talk,Always willing to discuss this subject) 23:43, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * That is your opinion that it is "not a series". There are plenty of sources that say otherwise, and none of them refer to them as the "Mario Platforming Games" as the actual name. (Maybe description, but not using that actual title.) That's why it'll be something like Super Mario or Super Mario (series).
 * Sorry, I removed that, as I thought it was an accident on your part. Massive signatures like that, which take up 20K+ characters, are highly frowned upon, as they make discussion very hard to follow in the raw form. (Not to mention, I'm sure you can see how its going annoying for that banner to show up every time you write something.) Please remove that from your signature. Sergecross73   msg me   23:49, 28 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I am working on that sig issue. I am trying to remove unnecessary code.


 * Could you actually show a source from Nintendo that actually says that? At this point, I've noticed several holes in your logic: super mario world 1 and 2; super mario galaxy 1 and 2; etc. your arguments are based on similar titles, but some use numbers to denote seperate series.


 * TheUnknownNinjaNN2


 * This source shows that Nintendo directly and literally refers to a "Super Mario series". (It doesn't get any more "straight from Nintendo" than an Iwata Asks on Nintendo.com.)
 * Sources like this or this show that third parties classify/call them this as well.
 * Please read up on some of the talk page discussions up and down this very page. There seems to be many discussions that print media, or even the Super Mario 25th Anniversary release, refer to a "Super Mario series" as well. There are many arguments regarding which games may or may not be included, but not so much on the series existence, that much is pretty much agreed on.
 * Above all, if you don't believe me, feel free to start up a requested move or a request for comment. But based on the general consensus forming in this subsection, I wouldn't expect it to go in your favor. (They may go in Czar's favor, but that wouldn't be to it being a series or not, it would be due to WP:DISAMBIG - basically that its unnecessary to designate, not its actual classification.) Sergecross73   msg me   15:21, 29 May 2013 (UTC)


 * fair enough, but where does it say what games are included. That series could be the 'get to the flag' games. Anyway, it seems like OR to put any games under that series name without official verification of being in that series.


 * TheUnknownNinjaNN2 — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheUnknownNinjaNN2 (talk • contribs) 16:03, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
 * As I said, read this very talk page. Much discussion has been put into it. You'll find your answers there. Sergecross73   msg me   16:05, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

WP:YOUTUBE can't be used as a reliable source. There are WP:SPS and WP:COPYVIO concerns. His additions were sloppy. For instance, one of his edits made it read: The Mega Mushroom is a more recent recurring item in the series which debuted in Mario Party 4... While the first appearance of the Mega Mushroom was in New Super Mario Bros. Its contradictory.

Actually your statement is wrong. He meant the first appearance in SUPER MARIO was super mario bros. its debut overall was Mario Party 4

Anyway, just give me evidence from NINTENDO that proves what series each game is in. Without it, we are assuming.

TheUnknownNinjaNN2(Talk,Always willing to discuss this subject) 19:58, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm confused that you copy and pasted an old comment of mine without representing it as such. Beyond that, you misread the context. Within my comment you copy/pasted, was me quoting that other person. I was saying that the way he was presenting it was contradictory, as it didn't explain what you said above. (Also, it fell outside of the scope of the article.)
 * Otherwise, I'm not sure why we're still arguing. I've already established that both Nintendo and third parties call the series the "Super Mario" series. Unless you're questioning particular entries and whether or not they need to be in it, it's irrelevant. (If you decide to go and do that, start up a new section. This conversation is getting long and I doubt you're going to get more people to chime in at this point.) Sergecross73   msg me   20:28, 29 May 2013 (UTC)


 * 1. 2nd and 3rd party sources cannot prove Nintendo's intention.


 * 2. Where is citation stating that any of the games are part of the series?


 * TheUnknownNinjaNN2(Talk,Always willing to discuss this subject) 13:13, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I've given you a first party source directly from Nintendo showing that a Super Mario series is a literal term used by Nintendo. With that fact established, it's pretty much common sense that games that have the words Super Mario in the title are going to be in it. If it didn't, they'd name it something else. Like I said, if you want to challenge particular games, feel free start up new subsections on it and discuss, and if there's consensus, feel free to remove. But to continue to challenge the series as a whole is silly. Sergecross73   msg me   13:41, 30 May 2013 (UTC)


 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_Land VS. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:TheUnknownNinjaNN2/sandbox . I am pretty certain that the first is a remake. Now tell me how that makes them the same series? Your analysis is OR. Nintendo only gave the creationd date for the series, but no games were ever mentioned. Any listing of games without confirmation is Original Research. Oh, and while I heavily doubt it, if my example is the same series, then I would be just shocked.
 * TheUnknownNinjaNN2(Talk,Always willing to discuss this subject) 22:23, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Nearly every single one of your comments has made the exact same argument, despite the fact that it has been dismantled over and over again by showing that calling the whole series the "Super Mario" series is NOT original research and that, by certain Wikipedia policies, the one first-party source and the two third-party sources are enough. I feel like you are arguing for the sake of arguing at this point. You did not appear to fully understand the concept of WP:OR back when you were arguing over the Bowser article, and you certainly don't appear to fully understand enough now to throw it back at the people who are trying to help you learn how Wikipedia operates.  TheStickMan  [✆Talk] 00:47, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

You are misunderstanding me. We cannot prove WHAT games exist in the Super Mario Series. Therefore, we should not mention ANY specific games.

TheUnknownNinjaNN2(Talk,Always willing to discuss this subject) 05:41, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
 * No one's misunderstanding you. Your argument simply conflicts with common sense. There's obviously a clear consensus against you. If you continue to argue, it will be counted against you as disruptive editing. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 05:56, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

That's all the proof necessary. The End. I'm not discussing any further - the contrary argument is ludicrous, and there's no where near a consensus to support it. Sergecross73  msg me   12:54, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Nintendo creates games with "Super Mario" in title.
 * 2) Nintendo refers to a "Super Mario series". (Source above)


 * How is that common sense? When has Nintendo stated that all games with "super mario" are in the series? Maybe I am overthinking it, but I was told in the main video game page that ANY deductions are OR. I am pretty much putting it the way they did. I am not sure how this counts as disruptive, though. I have used different things to support my argument (as in thesis).

TheUnknownNinjaNN2(Talk,Always willing to discuss this subject) 13:51, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
 * You are absolutely over thinking it. You've also been pointed to WP:BLUE. You really need to stop drilling every argument you're in into the ground. Every time, experienced users try to explain policy to you, and you seems to spend a lot more of your efforts arguing or fighting against it instead of trying to understand. You're testing people's patience. Try understanding the way it's being explained to you rather than challenging the definitions every step of the way. Sergecross73   msg me   14:05, 1 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I really see how it is obvious. I am not trying to anger anyone. I am merely saying that Nintendo never said what games fall into the series. How does a name prove anything? If that is the correct definition for adding a game to this series, then Nintendo needs to start adding colons, and standardize their gameplay types. I have never heard of a game series changing gameplay midway. It makes zero sense. People play games in a series, because they like the gameplay. I really don't see how this is one series. Also, I never found the link to a confirmation of this series existance. Perhaps, I you are explaining incorrectly.


 * Oh, and no offense, but please don't give me links as explanation. I get that we don't cite everything. I am just judging that this seems controversial (for more people than just me).

TheUnknownNinjaNN2(Talk,Always willing to discuss this subject) 20:14, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, if you don't want to listen to policy, your "gameplay has to be similar for games to be a series" argument is just flat out conceptually wrong. Sonic the Hedgehog (series), Earthworm Jim (series), ToeJam & Earl (series), Bubsy (series), - virtually any game series that spanned the History of video game consoles (fourth generation) and History of video game consoles (fifth generation) of video games went through massive changes in gameplay, and yet are still considered a series. There's just flat out no precedent for your viewpoint.  Sergecross73   msg me   20:27, 1 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I'd never heard of any of those soecifically before. I just thought it was common practice. I am listening to your talk on policies. I just don't believe that Nintendo intended it that way, and we can't really prove they did. In all examples of unnecessary citation, they are things that any person can verify by looking at their hand or by (not) looking at the sky. What if you were wrong. Sometimes it helps with citation (I realized) if you look for a "pivot point" an unconfirmable point where the true or false could fall either way without contradiction. Try working from my premise (that any one of them is not part of the series) and search for a contradiction. I am just shocked that a website without OR would claim something without proving it. What is the big deal with making other articles and leaving anything that is confirmable about the series?


 * I will leave it at that. Sometimes, I just feel that won't give a ligitamite contradiction. An antithesis. What I had trouble explaining to Thomas was I was wanting to know something that proves Bowser can't remove his shell. Not wether Wikipedia should place it in the article! I was looking for citation the whole time. Anyway, this is only relevant cause someone mentioned the Bowser discussion.


 * TheUnknownNinjaNN2(Talk,Always willing to discuss this subject) 02:37, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeed, it seems you're far more interested in arguing for the sake of arguing, than actually working towards improving the encyclopedia. I hope you've enjoyed yourself, I won't be humoring you anymore. From here on out, you'll get a quick quote from policy, and that's it, from me. Sergecross73   msg me   03:03, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Its not that I argue for the sake of arguing. Its just that without some kind of contradiction the statement must be true. Where have you actually proven the statement. Think about how hollow the proof is. What if Nintendo made Super Mario Party rather than Mario Party? You would probably lump it in this article? Am I right in saying that?

Oh, I just read the article and found that there are mentions of different things in both "series" that create continuity. You should have mentioned that sooner. Forget this entire discussion.

TheUnknownNinjaNN2(Talk,Always willing to discuss this subject) 03:46, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Timeline
Wouldn't it be a nice feature to change the colors of the timeline according to the system the games are released for? I have no idea how to do it, it's just a proposition ;) 93.211.159.40 (talk) 16:52, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Excellent idea! Someone who knows how to do this please proceed.
 * I've been looking for a 2-dimensional table listing the Super Mario games and consoles they play on in a way similar to List of Lego games though I realize that for Super Mario the effect would likely be that each game is valid for only a single console. Is there such a table anywhere? The Seventh Taylor (talk) 08:20, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Color-coding games by console
We have 6 consoles, so if we need to color-code the games by console (as indicated further up the talk page as someone's suggestion) then we need 6 different colors. Any thoughts on what each color should be?? What color should represent the NES?? The SNES?? The Nintendo 64?? The GameCube?? The Wii?? The Wii U?? Georgia guy (talk) 12:35, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Why is there a need to color-code the consoles in the first place? --ThomasO1989 (talk) 14:40, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Source for Mario items

 * http://www.gamespot.com/gallery/the-20-best-super-mario-power-ups/2900-38/ Sergecross73   msg me  23:17, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Notice
The Turkish article that actually linked to this page, Lep's World, was removed due to it being unrelated itself. On other languages, the Super Mario series, on Turkish, a Mario clone on Android phones. Looks like I'll have to discuss it. Guy9374isback2 (talk) 19:32, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

SML3:WL and SMW2:YI
A few years ago, I argued for inclusion, but it seems Nintendo has officially decided the two games are not part of the Super Mario series. I have already removed SML3:WL before noticing SMW2:YI was similarly absent, and will hope for some talk page discussion before gutting the article even further. I don't see how anybody can reasonably argue with Nintendo themselves on the topic but I welcome opinions. ☺ ·  Salvidrim!   ·  &#9993;  23:34, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with that. I always used to argue in favor of inclusion, because of their naming conventions, and there being no official word from Nintendo excluding them. It appears now there is. Sergecross73   msg me  00:08, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I was expecting a statement explicitly excluding those two games, but I clicked the link and it was just a collage of images with the caption "History of Super Mario Bros." The archive shows the same point being brought up in relation to something else Nintendo put out: the Super Mario history booklet released for the 25th anniversary. That booklet excluded several Super Mario games including all the portable ones, but consensus was that it wasn't proof that SMW2 and SML3 didn't count. So what's different now? The fact that different games are being excluded? It shows bias. Miyamoto has explicitly acknowledged that SMW2 is part of the Super Mario series. The directness of that statement would seem to override an implication made by something as vague as a screenshot gallery. Ozdarka (talk) 04:22, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
 * There's a heading that says "History of Super Mario". Those games aren't listed. What else can we reasonably get from this? Sergecross73   msg me  04:37, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
 * There's a heading here that says "History of Super Mario". Many games aren't listed. The problem with invoking interpretation through common sense is that it implies very particular assumptions. Whereas with a clear statement like Miyamoto saying SMW2 counts, assumptions aren't required. Ozdarka (talk) 05:02, 31 May 2015 (UTC)


 * The hang up here is one of subtitles, which are the only reason to feel that the two should be included. (I felt similarly to Salv and Serge before the 30th anniversary site.) The reality is that the sources receive SMW2 and SML3 more as deviants from the series, closer to the beginning of their own series than to the larger Super Mario series. To wit, the sources tend to refer to these games without their full official titles—instead by their "subtitles": Yoshi's Island and Wario Land. By the sources' own use, these are the games' common names. So I boldly renamed them. I say all this as someone who would want SMW2 to be considered part of the series based on how much time I pumped into rewriting Yoshi's Island from scratch for GA. (I also collected sources to rewrite Wario Land and the remaining games in the series.) Shouldn't be necessary to go back and tally which sites refer to the two games as included or excluded from the series. I think the 30th anniversary site is the best scope-defining document for the series that we have yet. Suffice it to say that the two games are part of the Mario series/franchise but not considered part of the Super Mario (Bros. series. – czar   14:06, 11 June 2015 (UTC)


 * People need to stop picking and choosing which game gets included, Yoshi's Island: Super Mario World 2, or Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3. You have to either have NEITHER, or BOTH! Stop picking one or the other, it's either both or none!2602:304:CFD3:2EE0:4C1B:DA7B:4BBE:B5A0 (talk) 04:55, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Who are you talking to? No one proposed that... Sergecross73   msg me  12:31, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Donkey Kong series is not a spin-off from Super Mario.
The original Donkey Kong undeniably is part of the DK series, which means the DK series existed first. The Super Mario series did not exist until 1985. A spin-off, by definition, a comes after the source series. The DK series did not spin-off from Super Mario. I've edited the article accordingly. Ozdarka (talk) 05:30, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Luigi series should probably come off as well, as it's less of a "series" and more a bunch of games that feature Luigi. And it doesn't have a series article either. Sergecross73   msg me  12:34, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

2 months later... SafetySponge (talk) 20:05, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

New mario IOS game
The super mario run needs to be added to the list of mario games http://supermariorun.com/en/index.html it has it's own article but hasn't been added to the list of games yet. source: http://supermariorun.com/en/index.html Thestarchyninja (talk) 16:57, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Where exactly? It's mentioned multiple times in the article. It's not in the "release" section, but that's because it's not released yet.  Sergecross73   msg me  17:28, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Timeline Dispute
A small thing, maybe, but there's been a lot of back-and-forth on the main article recently about what games in the leading timeline can be considered 'original' and therefore written in bold. The recent argument is that the NSMB series and some handheld games shouldn't count as bold due to being a sub-series, but I believe they should be bold due to them not being remakes or re-releases.

Surely only remakes should be the ones not in bold, as all the other ones are original entries in the main series? This could help prevent the ongoing edit war. GloverMist (talk) 10:50, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, I apologize, I usually would have started a discussion sooner, but usually editors who make such half-assed edits don't stick around to discuss, and I would have thought they'd have stopped after pointing out the major flaw in their changes. The IP keeps arguing over which games are mainline or spinoff, but that's irrelevant, as the only thing the timeline covers is whether or not its original or a re-release. Regardless of whether or not its a spinoff, its objectively false to label games like New Super Mario Bros as non-original releases. They are not remakes, they're original material. Sergecross73   msg me  12:40, 22 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Sergecross73, if the PC and arcade ports of SMB are not on the timeline "because they're alternate versions of a game already listed on the timeline, and don't have their own article either", then can you tell me why Super Mario Bros. Deluxe should be there? Ozdarka (talk) 13:54, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I had not been aware that DX didn't have its own article. I don't maintain every aspect of the the Super Mario franchise on Wikipedia, believe it or not. This can be a good time to discuss what to include too though, so that's fine. I don't think it's particularly necessary to list off every single release of redundant entries. DX is a little different, considering it was released over a decade later, and was one of the platforms best-selling games of all time. I think that's more worth noting than some obscure arcade variant. Perhaps someone else can come up with a little more air-tight of a method for determining what goes on there though. Sergecross73   msg me  14:49, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Purposefully excluding games that didn't sell as well is no better because it artificially presents the series as universally successful commercially when it isn't. That's bias. The PC and arcade games aren't exactly ports because they have different titles and different levels, so they are distinct games and should be included somehow. Ozdarka (talk) 10:47, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, then maybe trim out the entries without their own article then? It's too cluttered with every single minor variant on there. That's generally how WP:NAV templates operate too. Sergecross73   msg me  12:48, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

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Is there a reason SMB2 and Odyssey 2 are missing?
Just wondering, it seems to be a giant oversight to skip SMB2, especially given that there's the Japanese and "Western" versions of the game. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Derf Jagged (talk • contribs) 20:56, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
 * An editor appeared to have done a reorganization that moved SMB 2 to the bottom of the page. I’ve undone the change, as I feel it makes more sense to list them in chronological order by release. I’m not sure what you’re talking about with your “Odyssey 2” comment though. Super Mario Odyssey was always in the article and Super Mario Odyssey 2 isn’t a real thing as of writing this. Sergecross73   msg me  23:40, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Protection?
Hey,

Was thinking that this page and the one on the Mario franchise should get semi protection like the Nintendo and Legend of Zelda pages have. Anybody know how we can request it? -Peterjack1
 * I’m an admin, and I watch over the page and I can protect it if need be...but I really don’t think the page has received enough WP:VANDALISM to warrant it yet. If you disagree, you can request page protection at WP:RFPP, but they’ll likely tell you the same thing. Sergecross73   msg me  23:32, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the advice. Peterjack1 (talk) 02:12, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Rejected article reorganization
To explain a bit - the article was recently drastically reorganized with any discussion, consensus, or explanation. I undid it, as it was not an improvement for a few reasons. (For reference, you can see the rejected version here.


 * 1) The bizarre way you grouped some titles together violates WP:OR.
 * 2) Even beyond that, it’s just not intuitive. It’s very confusing to see the list and timeline jump from Super Mario Bros 1 to Super Mario Bros 3.
 * 3) Its best practice to list in 100% objective order, like chronologically or alphabetically, as to eliminate confusion or arguments. In this situation, by release year probably makes the most sense.

In the future, make sure you discuss radical changes to articles first, especially when it’s obviously a popular, high traffic article like this. It’s not required, but it’ll keep you from wasting a lot of time and effort with your work being undone. Sergecross73  msg me  23:55, 15 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I did the grouping based on gameplay, which is not OR it’s jusr fact. I believe that makes the article the most organized. Blame Nintendo for making the sequel to Mario “Mario 3” and the spin off “Mario 2”. At the very least, keep the paragraphs on each game and the timelines as this article is underdeveloped. -Peterjack1
 * Im not going to “blame Nintendo”, im going to “blame you” for violating policy and making confusing edits. I’m afraid that you don’t understand WP:OR. And you seem to have missed point number two as well. Check the section above. You’re already confusing people with your reorganizing. Sergecross73   msg me  02:20, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Fine, we can include Mario 2 in the mainline games to avoid confusion. However, they still does not justify the entire revert. The justifies editing my work, because it is not OR it is stating facts about the game and is unbiased. Peterjack1 (talk) 03:50, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Perhaps for you to understand what was so wrong with what you did, we need to go into more detail on what you did. Please explain your organization scheme in more detail. What were your criteria for organization? Why did you regroup each title you moved? Sergecross73   msg me  03:56, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

My criteria is based on its gameplay; is it a platformer with common Mario elements? Is it seen by the general Mario community as a main series game? And if you would like me to go into more detail, here you go: -Mario 2 is based on throwing turnips, you can’t defeat enemies by jumping on them, which is the #1 identifying mechanic of Mario, this one thing alone makes it a completely different game and if it’s name wasn’t “Mario 2” it probably wouldn’t be on the timeline. -The Super Mario Land series isn’t really part of the main timeline; it’s kind of it’s own thing. The gameplay has the base elements but is just different and in the third game you play as Wario. -Yoshi’s Island has the subtitle “Super Mario World 2” and has Baby Mario in it so I put it in the “other platformers” section. -New Super Luigi U is both an add on to NSMBU and it’s own standalone game, so it could go either way I guess. Same with Super Mario Maker, it features the same 2D gameplay as the NSMB series but is a level creation game so could go either way. Any other questions? Peterjack1 (talk) 04:19, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
 * No, that’s plenty, that illustrates my point perfectly. You used all sorts of your own personal criteria and judgements in your re-organization. If you don’t see it as original research, then you don’t understand original research. And again - it’s counter-intuitive - unless you plan on maintaining it personally for the rest of your life, it’s going to fall into disrepair because no one is going to understand all of that. You need to choose simple organizing methods that are easily understood instantly. Not make people have to put it all together like a puzzle. Sergecross73   msg me  11:31, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Disorganization of the games aside, the individual sections are written like high-school essays, not like an encyclopedic article. Look at the section for Super Mario 64 for example-- "it was clear that 3D was the future of gaming", "none were the major breakthrough the industry was looking for," "it was mainly praised for just being a solid game". There's no sources, it's all fluff, and it's all from your head. It's downright awful. The revert was more than justified. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 17:46, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Also agreed. The tone was not encyclopedic in his additions at all - it was way too informal, readling like something between a personal editorial and a casual conversation with friends. You should not write things like “Super Mario Sunshine came out a whopping 6 years later. Sergecross73   msg me  18:13, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Mainline was officially updated
Hi, folks. Just a friendly heads up regarding the time Miyamoto stated how he and his team felt that Yoshi's Island was a part of the core series during the 25th Super Mario anniversary. There has been a change reflected in official material since then particularly in the Super Mario Encyclopedia released for the 30th anniversary. You can find it on page 241. There's multiple plausible explanations: perhaps some nuance to the sentiment was lost along the way whether it be in his understanding of the question, the understanding on the interpreters' part, or even just a change of mind upon further reflection down the road.

Also it's worth mentioning that in page 255 of said encyclopedia that Super Mario Maker is not classified as a mainline Super Mario series game either. I imagine the change can be a bit of an adjustment especially for the sort of fans who are vested in these sort of details and that one might as well prepare for some sort of other change flying under our radar again some day. Thanks for your time!2600:8805:8100:5F60:2D6B:C89A:25E1:EAB9 (talk) 22:10, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Yoshis Island is a hard sell for me, considering past commentary, and it’s full title itself, though I could see splitting the Mario Maker games into their own subsection, they do seem to be discussed as their own thing now that the full sequel has been announced. Sergecross73   msg me  00:59, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I believe that's due to the Japanese title of Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island being Super Mario: Yoshi's Island. It's kinda like Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3, in that it is considered in the Super Mario Land series (is it really?). It was titled so in Japan, as Super Mario Land 3: Wario Land. I would consider them both breaking points from their previous series into new series of their own. I'm sure it's up for debate but I would generally see them as the origins of their own series rather than the black sheep of the Super Mario series. --Bchill53 (talk) 02:18, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

I hear you both on that and recognize it's a conflict of information on their part. The whole book was surprisingly specific with the whole "17 titles in the main series" thing (as neither Run or Odyssey were out yet) and then on page 81 they get into how members of "the Mario family" have had their own spinoff platformers. It's possible that they've come to a decision that while the game has benefited from the Mario branding, had built upon Mario's trope codifying platform styles, and contributed to the sparse amount of lore...they may have just found the lack of time spent playing as Mario in the game to be a deal breaker. Either way: in the event they recant on it, I'll sigh and chuckle about it and go "Oh, Nintendo" but the rest I leave up to youto mull it over. Thanks for your time and attention and for maintaining everything!2600:8805:8100:5F60:2D6B:C89A:25E1:EAB9 (talk) 02:30, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Free Edit
If Wario and Yoshi are Super Mario characters,then their games belong to the Super Mario series

Sergecross73's edits are driving me nuts! Kairipines (talk) 15:05, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Why would that be the standard? By that sort of logic, we should be listing off all the Mario Kart and Mario Party games too. Do you really think this was some sort of oversight that no one thought of for years and years, at an extremely popular article? No way. This is the Super Mario article. Only games directly called Super Mario are to be listed. Sergecross73   msg me  15:51, 4 May 2019 (UTC)