Talk:Super Mario 64/Archive 3

"Mutated Cap" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Mutated Cap. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 August 29 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Captain Galaxy  14:21, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

"Super Mario 64 Glitches" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Super Mario 64 Glitches. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 August 29 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 15:15, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request
Under the "Glitches" section, the line "Scott Buchanan, with the alias pannenkoek2012, collected one of these coins in 2014 without tool assistance, and described the programming mechanics of Super Mario 64."

The word in bold is incorrect. pannenkoek2012 never collected the coin without tool assistance in 2014, and in fact said in the video that it would be extremely difficult without a lot of practice. I simply propose that the word "without" is changed to "using," or something of the like. Sorry if this is formatted incorrectly in any way, I've never done this before. --Roshibomb (talk) 06:35, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , thanks, this has been edited. Popcornfud (talk) 10:53, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 January 2021
Add in action-adventure as another genre to this game: I've experienced this game and it seems like this game is more action-adventure. 173.32.132.87 (talk) 03:44, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * ❌. You'll need reliable sources for this addition. Most sources call it a platform game. Popcornfud (talk) 11:38, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

FA in need of review
Hate to do this to one of the biggest parts of my childhood, and how I got introduced to the Mario series, but an article considered FA in 2008 is an article only considered FA in 2008; we're now in [insert current year here], and "featured article" ain't the phrase I used to describe this article.
 * It fails 1a
 * I would fail this article for FA for the Reception section alone, because it's such an organization and user navigability nightmare; it's like it's trying to put the major points together tidily but failed in spectacular fashion and became a Frankenstein-monster-like mesh of quote-farms and condensed summaries of multiple sources.
 * Para 2 and Para 4: Can I just say how much it annoys me when a sentence about a few source's scores is brought up in the middle of other sentences that establish critical opinion? We have a template of a side-list of review ratings for a reason, because bringing them up in prose makes reading the article awkward and more difficult to process.
 * Speaking of which, most of the accolades and awards should be listed in the ratings template as well instead of bunched together like a quotefarm in prose.
 * There are very few instances were I could justify paragraphs as long as the ones in this section; this is not one of them, however, as not only are they separable but have lengths the result of not knowing how to organize and present conclusions in a concise manner.
 * Speaking of which, this section goes all over the place. We start with a brief sentence about the critical reception, yet the rest of the paragraph is about commercial performance. Then it goes to the next paragraph to awards and accolades in magazines, then that same long-ass paragraph (that I can tell with my own eyes where it should be split) goes into a quote farm that only represents the opinion of a few sources, except with paraphrased statements and scores instead of quotes. We then get a paragraph of sentences much more suited for the legacy section than making up this much space in the reception section, then it goes back into another unreadable-as-textured-Mario-64-signs quotefarm paragraph switching back-and-forth between accolades that should be in the same place as those other simply-summarized accolades in paragraph 2, and more brief mentions of score. This is the least comfortable and most angering reception section I've seen.
 * There's also a major organization problem in the legacy section. It goes from describing how big and amazing the game seemed at the time, to an entire f---ing quote about the game's outdateness, back to how great the game felt at the time with another goshdarn long quote. I'm pretty sure it's a requirement for strong prose that you leave the use of long quotes to a minimum. Additionally (and I'll cover more about the article's completeness in the next set of bullets), there's no other retrospective sources represented to describe how outdated the game is, just a random quote by a professional journalist whose like any other professional journalist.
 * There are tons of prose quibbles I have (such as why Mario's movements aren't introduced before the power-ups and those cannons) I couldn't summarize all of them simply, but just know it leads to an article with not the best writing it could have.
 * It fails 1b.
 * There is no representation of academic or scholarly literature. Inexcusable, as I found pages-upon-pages of it with a simple Google search.
 * For reception, the game's contemporaneous reviews are massively under-represented, with only a few opinions from these sources explained when there are many more not talked about, such as those cited in the article only for their scores (even IGN... let me repeat, IGN doesn't have its upon-release opinions stated) and the many, many others you could find with MobyGames, retromags.com, kultboy.com, and Internet Archive. I mean, where in the world is Computer and Video Games? This issue makes the summary of reviews in the lead ("Reviewers praised its ambition, visuals, gameplay, and music, although they criticized its unreliable camera system.") that much more questionable.
 * This is especially true for newspapers covering the game upon release, as it's missing perspectives and content about the game from sources like The NY Times, LA Times, Washington Post, and much more.
 * There's so much missing so much on the game's legacy. It at least talks about its influence on the 3D video game landscape, but content about its massive online cult fandom is lacking; It briefly talks about its use in Machinama and fan remakes, but I see nothing about the game's speedrunning community, conspiracy theories (not counting a brief paragraph about the Luigi ones), corruption streams, ROM Hacks, challenges such as the green demon, and much more. Heck, I'm not even seeing anything about the Backwards Long Jump trick, which is the biggest known glitch to even gamers who aren't Mario 64 fans.
 * I also see no info on the press and critical reactions to previews of the game, such as those at E3, or... f---, not even anything about the E3 presentations themselves, which I saw in the newspaper Google searches!
 * As a player of Mario 64, I can tell there are issues with the gameplay and plot sections of what content is included and missing pieces.
 * "The player can pick up and carry certain items, an ability which is used to solve various puzzles." What the heck? Which puzzles? All I remember for the "puzzle" segments is just walking around and touching things, and I don't remember carrying anything for these. The only example I could loosely (and I mean very loosely) fit into this category is the penguin star, but all you really had to do was get the penguin to his mother, both characters of which were very transparent and not secret in any way.
 * There's seriously nothing about the type of enemies, bosses, and levels Mario encounters? I'm not asking for a WP:GAMEGUIDE summary, but something more than that. We have this for a more recently-nominated featured article on a Mario game, why not Super Mario 64?
 * Why is the cannon so extensively talked about when there are so many other methods of moving through levels not brought up, like carpet rides, shells, moving poles for Mario to latch on, switches and pillars to enter other areas, and much more?
 * It fails 1c and even the good article's 2b and 2c
 * In addition to the lack of newspaper, academic, and other contemporaneous print coverage I mentioned above, there's also some questionable-to-unreliable sources; while they make up a minority of the cites currently use, it's a big enough minority to put FA 1c into question
 * Most of the article's coverage on Mario 64 Machinamas is cited with self-uploaded Youtube videos used to present their popularity and origins. I'm not against the use of self-published sources themselves (in fact, in some cases I would require them for FA for completeness), but stuff about the origins of these videos and their success must be made notable by independent sources. If all you have are these Youtube videos, then the info's not worthy for inclusion.
 * Speaking of Youtube cites, more than half of the music and sounds section uses a Youtube channel video as a citation, which itself cites a user-written wiki.
 * How is Source Gaming a reliable source?
 * The cite formatting also sucks and is inconsistent:
 * Ref#105 doesn't have a publisher or work credited. As User:Nikkimaria would say, "Check for others"
 * Ref#112 formats author names without the [Last, first] way of formatting while other cites do the opposite
 * Some sources without an author credited have the author fields in their citations presented as "[Source] staff" in some and blank in others, even between sources of the same works (for example, IGN)
 * There's is also inconsistency with whether authors are credited or not. Don't tell me GamePro, NextGen, EGM, Edge, and Game Informer don't credit their authors; I've read and cited reviews of these publications for other video game articles, and they credit their writers all the time (albeit with nicknames sometimes).

Simply put, prose and navigability issues beyond belief, horrifically incomplete and non-representative of a big part of the literature, and some questionable sources. HumanxAnthro (talk) 18:46, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Yep, a pretty persuasive analysis there. Nothing to add. Popcornfud (talk) 19:01, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Just one more thing. The types of stars aren't specified; like I said, not looking for a WP:GAMEGUIDE, but types of star missions repeat in many levels, such as those where you have to find secrets and red coins, beat bosses, traverse from one part to the next, puzzles, races, and more. HumanxAnthro (talk) 01:47, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Interesting. If I can find some time here soon, I’d be willing to take a crack at the unreliable sources and bad formatting.  I could use a boost with the prose because my available time is sorely limited at the moment.  (An FYI that I have no previous involvement with the article, it’s simply a subject of interest combined with I recently re-started the game and collected all the stars pretty much from memory, so my interest is piqued at the moment).  Red Phoenix  talk  13:10, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
 * If you wanna keep your interest going, I recommend watching "Mario 64 challenge" videos and speedruns of different types of Mario 64 (such as Non-stop, randomizer, and Twitch-trying-to-stop-play versions) on Youtube. ;) HumanxAnthro (talk) 15:29, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Haha, we’ll see about that. I’m more of a Sega person usually, so maybe some Sonic speed runs might interest me more.  Can I recommend we appeal to WT:VG and draw some support?  Popular franchises like this usually generate instant interest, and I’m volunteering to do the dirty sourcing work no one likes to do (and my time is quite limited; I would need a couple of months if I wanted to revitalize the article myself given my current situation).  Red Phoenix  talk  19:24, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
 * FWIW, the TCRF Mario 64 articles have some sources that aren’t used here. Those could be a great starting point. JOE BRO  64  21:25, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
 * That'd be awesome, but I'm not sure what you mean by TCRF. My apologies for being daft. I'd love to have time to do additional research.   Red Phoenix  talk  03:08, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
 * , The Cutting Room Floor, a wiki that documents unused game content. Their Prerelease:Super Mario 64 article has some sources we can use. JOE BRO  64  03:16, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Cool, thanks. I had literally never heard of The Cutting Room Floor before.   Red Phoenix  talk  03:17, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, so my available time has sucked even worse than I thought. Unless some support does get drummed up, I have no qualms about this going to FAR. Red Phoenix talk  17:07, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

E3
So, I found this source (https://www.destructoid.com/stories/this-live-demo-of-super-mario-64-is-an-amazing-retro-e3-moment-511570.phtml), that shows a live demo of SM64 during E3 1996. Could we use this? Blue Jay (talk) 12:37, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Glitches section doesn't talk about glitches
So we have a glitches section that only briefly mentions glitches and then proceeds to talk about the "L is real" rumor which isn't a glitch. Maybe this should be changed to talk about glitches that are well known outside of the Mario 64 community (like the backwards long jump) or it should just be removed completely. Blaze The Wolf &#124; Proud Furry and Wikipedia Editor (talk) 15:18, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Every copy of Mario 64 is personalized
Can you add in a new section about "every copy of Mario 64 is personalized" which will also have the Wario apparition?--24.44.76.88 (talk) 20:46, 29 December 2020 (UTC)


 * This would be more of a rumor as it isn't actually real. In fact, most footage of it is either edited or of the fan made "personalized" Super Mario 64 game. Blaze The Wolf &#124; Proud Furry and Wikipedia Editor (talk) 15:19, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

DSi and MS-DOS Ports?
Under the Legacy portion of the article, there is a phrase that lists what platforms Super Mario 64 has been ported to. As someone who has been active in the porting community, I have also seen ports of Super Mario 64 for the Nintendo DSi and MS-DOS surface on the internet. If there is not an article on the internet about these ports, will it not be added to the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nmchlngy4 (talk • contribs) 11:27, 16 March 2021 (UTC)


 * The version for the Nintendo DSi is the same as Super Mario 64 DS. The DSi received very few DSi exclusive games that aren't simply DS games. The MS-DOS version is most likely not an official Nintendo port. Blaze The Wolf &#124; Proud Furry and Wikipedia Editor (talk) 15:21, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Re: Record-breaking $1,560,000 auction sale in July 2021
Page is semi-protected so I can't edit it right now, but there's a sentence about the recent auction sale that needs a little work for grammatical correctness:

"It's packaging condition had been rated 9.8 on a 10-point scale by Wata Games, which to that point, less than five copies have received such a high grade."

should be changed to something like

"Its packaging condition had been rated 9.8 on a 10-point scale by Wata Games; at that time, less than five copies had received such a high grade."

or

"Its packaging condition had been rated 9.8 on a 10-point scale by Wata Games. At that time, less than five copies had received such a high grade."

107.15.33.139 (talk) 13:21, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Rumors and glitches section rewrite
Hello! So as I was looking through this specific sentence, I noticed a few sentences that seemed to be rather disconnected from the rest of the section. The sentences read, "Speedrun techniques include the backward long jump. Pannenkoek2012's highly technical analysis of Super Mario 64 glitches and mechanics has been covered many times in the video game press." I feel like these sentences could be combined and possibly made to fit the article better. However, despite natively speaking English, I still struggle with certain things like combining sentences so I'm not sure how to go about this. If anyone could help me out I'd appreciate it. Blaze The Wolf &#124; Proud Furry and Wikipedia Editor (talk) 13:24, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Info about the backwards long jump as a frequent technique of speedrunners is too specific and trivial for the article IMO, so I removed it. Potential secrets uncovered have received significant coverage; "techniques" have not (only YT videos and listicles like the one cited before).--MattMauler (talk) 13:32, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * While I do agree with you, I have found sources that mention some glitches. However, I do agree that it's a bit trivial as the only one for a source that I know is considered reliable is a top 9 by IGN which I don't think would be suitable for use with the article. Blaze The Wolf &#124; Proud Furry and Wikipedia Editor (talk) 15:08, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Add updated, high quality, cover art from NOA’s press release website.
Somebody else do this because I don’t how the hell the uploading system works. Bobbywall03 (talk) 14:52, 25 September 2021 (UTC)


 * I see no issue with the current cover art. ― Blaze The WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 15:16, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Please review WP:NFC - we are restricted on the use of non-free media as our goal is to promote free media. As such, we cannot use excessively high resolution images for cover art. --M asem (t) 15:22, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

How is this article now?
So, other editors and I have done some work on this article concerning the issues brought up by HumanxAnthro, and I'd appreciate some feedback. Are there still issues with the article that need addressing? — Coolperson177 (t&#124;c) 18:26, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * This article is definitely going in the right direction. The cite formatting is improved, more reliable sources are being used, more stuff is getting cited, the reception is more organized than I remember to be, and that's good. However, that's only through a skimthrough, and I have not looked at the article in full, neither the sources to see how well the article represents them, or if there are any other details. I can say the Reception section's prose needs to represent more reviews, such as those that only have their ratings listed on the side (WP:DUEWEIGHT). 👨x🐱 ( Nina Cortex x Coco Bandicoot ) 19:19, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Alright, cool! I've already done two edits to help with that a little. If you (or anybody else) has the time for a more detailed analysis, I'd appreciate it. Thanks! — Coolperson177 (t&#124;c) 02:31, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * One thing I would like to say is that for the Fan Projects section, it seems to be in a list-like format rather than in prose. I'm not sure if it's appropriate for this article to have it like this, but from what I've seen Wikipedia editors prefer prose in articles unless it's something like an "Awards" or "Filmography" section. But if everyone else is fine with that, there's not much I can do there; I guess I'm fine with it as well. Other than that, I think everything looks good so far; maybe just a couple more edits and it could come back up to at least a GA-status.
 * Also I have to commend you for taking on such a daunting task as reediting this whole article. How did you do it and keep track of every change that needed to be made? Did you write out the changes you wanted to make beforehand on something like Word or Docs (that's how I usually edit articles), or did you use the Sandbox? Either way I appreciate it; this article was one I used to read a lot as a kid, and I'm glad it's getting a new coat of paint now. I would give you a Barnstar but I still don't know how to do that yet (lol). PantheonRadiance (talk) 22:50, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I didn't use Docs, I just looked at the problems listed by HumanxAnthro and the FAR page. I didn't really have a plan beforehand, I just looked at what the problems were and fixed them, although it does require stamina. — Coolperson177 (t&#124;c) 23:06, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Possible new fan project?
I found this source related to a version of Super Mario 64 that gives Mario a gun: https://www.polygon.com/2021/3/1/22307966/super-mario-64-fps-gun-speedrun-alpharad-youtube. Would this be appropriate to be added under the Fan Project section? It could be a possible sub bullet-point of First Person Mario 64. Thoughts would be appreciated. --Splatana (talk) 14:55, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Added that as a separate bullet point since nobody's objected. — Coolperson177 (t&#124;c) 23:17, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I think that's a bit of a weird fan game to add but I don't have any strong objections to adding it. Just find it a bit weird since Mario does not seem like the type of guy to be using a gun. ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 23:26, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I've found its an internet rule to give any character who does not seem like the type of person to use a gun a gun. This is an obvious example, another is Kirby with a gun, of which there are plenty of fangames and memes, and is actually happening with the new Ranger copy ability. Splatana (talk) 09:13, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
 * True... ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 13:36, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Game Director
Shouldn't only Miyamoto be credited as director on the infobox? Koizumi and Tezuka were only assistany directors, not game directors. Honestly, I'd just add Yoichi Yamada as Co-Director as he was course director. Aalji (talk) 23:17, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

I think Koizumi is worthy of it though honestly checking the development Aalji (talk) 23:21, 18 March 2022 (UTC)


 * From what I've heard, who is listed as director in the infobox isn't all the clear with the documentation, sometimes making it seem like Co-directors have priority over head directors. ― <b style="background:#0d1125;color:#51aeff;padding:1q;border-radius:5q;">Blaze Wolf</b>Talk<sub title="Discord Username" style="margin-left:-22q;">Blaze Wolf#6545 23:25, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I looked at the documentation for the infobox, and it says "do not list other types of directors in [the director] field". I'm not sure if assistant directors fall under "other types of directors", but I believe that "course director" does, so I don't think we can include Yoichi Yamada under the director field. — Coolperson177 (t&#124;c) 23:57, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Course directors would more appropriately be listed as designers. For reference, the infobox for Super Mario World lists Katsuya Eguchi and Hideki Konno as designers, as the credits sequence lists them under "Map Director" and "Area Director", respectively. Condontdoit296 (talk) 21:51, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
 * It's not clear to readers looking for basic information on the article that the other people are credited as "course director" and there is no source discussing that the game was "really directed by ______" Miyamoto should really be the only one there. Andrzejbanas (talk) 22:10, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I thought of a solution, and maybe we can use tooltips to describe their specific roles? That's what on the course directors and the assistant directors. — Coolperson177 (t&#124;c) 01:58, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * There's no real point in doing that as it just is an extra text to say "well they aren't really directors". The purpose of the infobox is to supplement information within the article, not give new ones. If Miyamoto is the only director, we don't just add other people with different credits to shove them in. See WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. Andrzejbanas (talk) 19:12, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I mean This director and this director is kind of too much Aalji (talk) 20:32, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I wasn't aware of that MoS guideline, I removed those other tooltips just now.. — Coolperson177 (t&#124;c) 21:09, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

"Antagonist"
MOS:FILMCAST says: Interpretations in the form of labels (e.g. protagonist, antagonist, villain, main character) should be avoided. does this guideline also apply to video games? Elizium23 (talk) 20:06, 28 September 2022 (UTC)


 * I can't provide a definitive answer for that, but I did find this green sentence in MOS:VG which includes the word "protagonist". — Coolperson177 (t&#124;c) 21:50, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
 * IMO, terms like "protagonist" or "antagonist" should be used sparingly and are often overused to the point where they are meaningless. If you look at Characters in the Mario franchise, it refers to any literally enemy character as an antagonist. Even if it's just a one-off character who acts as an obstacle at best and doesn't have a major role, they're automatically an antagonist. In the context of this article, "Bowser, one of the main antagonists of the Super Mario franchise" makes sense because Bowser is the big bad and beating him is the main goal of the story. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 22:22, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
 * You're right. From our article on antagonists: An antagonist is a character in a story who is presented as the chief foe of the protagonist. — Coolperson177 (t&#124;c) 22:42, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 September 2022
My request is to add how super Mario 64 was rereleased on Nintendo switch through 3d all stars and the n64 emulator. I noticed the re-release portion lacked this information. ConcernedGamer (talk) 19:23, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
 * , are you talking about this? If so, 3D All-Stars is already in the article. — Coolperson177 (t&#124;c) 19:28, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I think they're wanting info on the Nintendo Switch Online N64 Emulator release. ― <b style="background:#0d1125;color:#51aeff;padding:1q;border-radius:5q;">Blaze Wolf</b>Talk<sub title="Discord Username" style="margin-left:-22q;">Blaze Wolf#6545 16:46, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The Nintendo Switch Online + Expansion Pack? Isn't that what you're talking about? — Coolperson177 (t&#124;c) 17:01, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes. I don't actually know what the name for the actual N64 emulator is that's included in it. ― <b style="background:#0d1125;color:#51aeff;padding:1q;border-radius:5q;">Blaze Wolf</b>Talk<sub title="Discord Username" style="margin-left:-22q;">Blaze Wolf#6545 17:42, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Alright. If it's okay, I'll close this request now, since the information ConcernedGamer wanted is already there and I don't think the emulator's name is important. — Coolperson177 (t&#124;c) 18:15, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I know it's not important. I'm just stating that I Don't know what I should actually refer to it as. Also, the request is already closed. ― <b style="background:#0d1125;color:#51aeff;padding:1q;border-radius:5q;">Blaze Wolf</b>Talk<sub title="Discord Username" style="margin-left:-22q;">Blaze Wolf#6545 18:17, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
 * There is no official name for the emulator that the Switch uses to run its retro game collection, as far as anyone knows it's just an in-house system built by Nintendo. No official sources mention emulation at all, though of course we can surmise that that's how it's implemented - mention of an emulator in any respect is a technical detail that would be outside the scope of this article, in my opinion. Wpscatter (talk) 20:23, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

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