Talk:Super Punch-Out!!

Facts/Citations
The article says that the only fighter that can't be knocked-out is Mr. Sandman. Apparently, this is taken from the fact that every character in the game has its own knock-out animation, except Sandman. Although, I don't know anybody who has knocked any of the following characters: Bald Bull, Mr. Sandman, Heike Kagero, Mad Clown, Hoy Quarlow and Rick Bruiser. Someone who can help? Ivanfryda 03:44, 03 Sept 2006 (UTC)

Facts/Citations
This article is in dire need of factual confirmation and citation. A number of groundless claims have been laid down in the article, including but not limited to:


 * The protagonist, intentionally not given a name (the player's given name for the save file being the only semblance of a name), referred to as Little Mac
 * Gabby Jay being trained by Glass Joe
 * "Rumors" of Masked Muscle being Vodka/Soda ((nevermind the drastic skin tone contrasts))

If someone could provide a scan of the instructional manual or a reliable translation of the Japanese site for factual confirmation (or negation with respect to the notion none of these claims are concrete), that would just be grand. Gerk 06:44, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * We've been through this before. The protagonist should actually be called Little Mac, as he was called that in his appearance in Fight Night: Round 2 for the Nintendo Gamecube. You're the only one who thinks he isn't Little Mac, and until you can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that he isn't, he is. PsychoJosh 23:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Also in several Nintendo Power comics featuring Punch-Out, he is called Little Mac LReyome254 (talk) 14:52, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Masked Muscle
Googling around I'm having trouble finding any such rumors, aside from one reference to the similarity on Usenet in 1994. Reuse of the generalities of the character as a development shortcut seem plausible on one level, but it wouldn't have been a matter of code or artwork reuse, since the SNES didn't share either graphics hardware or an instruction set with the NES or arcade machines AIUI. Moppet 08:06, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps Vodka/Soda was in the beta version of Super Punch-Out!! before Nintendo decided to change him into a new boxer. Parrothead1983 00:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Little Mac
Following up on one of the original points made in the discussion post, nearly every other edit promotes the unreferenced notion that the nameless boxer is in fact Little Mac...you know, despite looking completely different, being more than 3 feet tall, and, even going so far as to humor this idea, inexplicably going all the way back down to the bottom rung of the Minor Circuit. If people are going to be so bold as to claim these two characters are one and the same, at least provide a reference/proof. Seriously. Gerk 07:29, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It's not Electronic Arts who was responsible for naming the blonde-haired boxer, Little Mac, it's Nintendo. This is probably a sign that Nintendo has abandoned the original black-haired Little Mac due to the NES Punch-Out!! titles parodying the Rocky movies, so they can go back to the gameplay of the Punch-Out!! arcade (used in the SNES Super Punch-Out!!), which started it all. Parrothead1983 20:23, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Super Punch-Out was included in the GCN version of Fight Night Round 2 with Nintendo's consent, and perhaps even at their behest. Therefore, it is disingenuous to say that the fighter in FNR2 is not Little Mac. The onus is on you to find documentation that proves the fighter in Super Punch-Out is NOT Little Mac. Your claim that it doesn't make sense because it doesn't follow continuity is rather flimsy. Companies often abandon continuity and retroactively revise canon for no apparent reason. And this is Punch-Out, it's not like it has some super involved storyline anyway. As for the other claims, you are certainly correct. They require some sort of evidence before they can be included. Floyddoorz 00:34, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I will attempt to obtain scans of the Super Punch-Out!! instruction manual, which IIRC uses only second-person pronouns in referring to the protagonist boxer (furthering the general idea that the boxer's name = Name entered in for save file) and as such does not dub him Little and/or Mac (incidentally, I will check for any notes on one Gabby Jay while I'm at it, namely the identity, if any, of his trainer.) And as for FNR2, I think "Little Mac", even if (if; we shall see ^_^) erroneous, is a much better contender name than "Anonymous Punch-Out Boxer Guy".  Gerk 04:38, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Have you checked out the FNR2 credits? It probably has something like "Super Punch-Out!!, Little Mac, and the Nintendo logo are trademarks of Nintendo". Parrothead1983 20:55, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Just because you name your save file doesn't mean that we can presuppose that name = save file. Look at the Legend of Zelda series, for example. Even though you name your character in A Link To The Past and your character is referred to by the name you give him, it is still Link. I suggest that we e-mail Nintendo via their official website and ask for their position on whether or not the SP-O!! character is Little Mac or not. King of Aardvark 19:25, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * In the Zelda games, your character is referred to by their given/save-file name throughout the course of the game. Given the heavy reliance of plot on this game, in addition to other games that do the same thing from the era such as Earthbound or, dare I say, Final Fantasy Mystic Quest, the character has a "default" name used for all documented references to the game, when of course the player has not named the character yet.  As I said, hopefully my search through the manual or the NP issue with a strategy guide, shall prove fruitful; I hope, anyway.  Gerk 00:48, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


 * That would make sense, seeing as all of those are used in FNR2. I don't get it...?  @_@  Gerk 01:32, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I really mean that his name might be in the FNR2 credits. Parrothead1983 22:27, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, the guy you can unlock in FNR2 is named Little Mac; whether this name is accurate or not, they'd still have to give a legal nod to Nintendo for using "Little Mac" in that context of a boxer's name...if ya know what I mean. Gerk 05:40, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, most likely, the protagonist is the remake of the green-haired, wire boxer from the Punch-Out!! arcades. - Parrothead1983 20:04, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

It's not unusual for Nintendo to drastically change its characters appearances. Wario used to be twice the size of Mario and wear pink and red, and now he's about the same size as Mario sporting yellow and purple. Luigi used to be a carbon copy of Mario with green and brown clothes, then white and green and then finally adopting his own distinct appearance as well as his trademark blue and green colors. Finally, Katt Monroe used to be depicted with pink fur in Star Fox 64, but recently shows black fur in Star Fox Command. Little Mac's change is hairstyle is no different.12.206.209.230 (talk) 04:37, 8 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Guys, you're probably not going to believe this, but according to the download details for the SNES Super Punch-Out!! in the Wii Shop Channel, the protagonist is seriously Little Mac, not a nameless boxer. Here are the details:

Featuring the tight game play and humor the series is known for, this sequel to the NES classic sees Little Mac return to the ring with the World Video Boxing Association belt once again at stake. Slug your way through the grueling, sweat-pounding matches of the Minor, Major and World Circuits as you face of against some of Little Mac's greatest rivals like Bear Hugger, Bald Bull, and Super Macho Man. With a cast of new challengers waiting, do you have what it takes to identify their unique patterns and exploit their weaknesses? Go to your corner, and come out fighting, but remember what Doc Louis would say, "It's not about brawling---it's about finesse!"

However, in the Techniques page of the Operations Guide, he is referred to as "the main character", but this is probably talking technical. Also, according to the Little Mac trophy in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Little Mac's only appearance during that time was the NES Punch-Out!! series; however, like Super Smash Bros. Melee, Super Smash Bros. Brawl has some errors, like Stafy, who will officially be spelled by Nintendo of America as "Starfy". Even Doc Louis was mentioned in the Wii Shop Channel's details for the game; although he doesn't appear at all in the game, he's probably mentioned along with Little Mac in the instruction booklets for every version of the game, while the person shouting things in the background like "Fight!" and "Knock-Out!" could possibly be him instead of the announcer. Parrothead1983 (talk) 20:40, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

In the recent Nintendo Power magazine, they confirm that it is infact NOT Little Mac. I know, it's very confusing.Dark Rain (talk) 20:19, 28 April 2009


 * What recent issue? May 2009? Parrothead1983 (talk) 04:04, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Never mind, I found it here. It sounds reliable, but not from anyone who works for Next Level Games or any other developer that's not Nintendo. Even though he said they researched the entire Punch-Out!! series, the answer to who is "they" is either just Next Level Games or both them and Nintendo. Also, their researching of every (or nearly every) Punch-Out!! information they can find most likely happened before the Virtual Console release of the SNES Super Punch-Out!!, which confirmed that the protagonist is Little Mac.  Bryan Holliday sounds more like a fan of the Punch-Out!! series (especially the ever-popular NES versions) that asked Nintendo if he and Next Level Games would like to help develop a Punch-Out!! Wii game, since video game developers, like movie producers, are running out of ideas and going back to old-school classics to make new games and movies based on them.  It would of been better if Genyo Takeda (Punch-Out!! series creator) or anyone of the original Punch-Out!! series staff (especially those who developed the SNES version) was in the same interview and said if the SNES boxer is Little Mac or not.  Parrothead1983 (talk) 05:37, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Review Link(s)
Parrothead1983, let's stop the edit war over Sydlexia's review. I added it originally on the grounds that it's a legitimate piece of commentary on the game, raises a number of legitimate points concerning its weaknesses, and gives some fairly extensive summary narrative and lots of screenshots. In short, I feel it contributes overall to the review. Your original rewording as a "hateful review" prior to removing the link entirely makes me think you're removing it on the grounds that it criticizes the game. If so, this isn't a legitimate reason to delink; encyclopedias aren't about adulation alone, and some of the best game reviews have been incisively negative (see e.g. Old Man Murray). Alternately, if "hateful" is your attempt to convey the review's negativity, better words would be "negative," "critical" or similar ("critical" would be ideal except that its meaning would be unclear when used to describe a review.)

In any event, rather than keep strobing the link, please discuss why you feel it's not appropriate and we can try to sort it out. Moppet 08:24, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Adding a link to a negative review in the article could cause more people to hate SNES Super Punch-Out!!, including newcomers. They should play it first, before reading and/or writing reviews. Parrothead1983 20:23, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Parrothead, your argument is a rather transparent attempt to hide the fact that you love the game and you want to shield yourself and others from all criticism of it. The Wikipedia article itself is neutral. However, there is no reason that it should not offer links to sites that offer alternate viewpoints on the game. King of Aardvark 10:07, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


 * No rational person will come to hate something based soley on a review they've read. That possibility is not useful as a deciding criteria; this isn't an advocacy article.  Is the link relevant?  Does it contribute useful facts or demonstrate notable opinions?  Certainly it includes allegations of fact, such as those about the game rules as compared to the NES' Punch Out, which are relevant and useful as citations (something this article currently lacks).  It also raises cogent objections to some of the choices made during the game's design and direction.  None of this is to argue that a positive review would not be linkworthy, but a positive review would be no more or less appropriate for the article than a negative one, for the same reasons.  Moppet 06:39, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Linkspam much? Is sydlexia even notable? See WP:SPAM for more info. -- LV (Dark Mark)  13:53, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Your first question you can answer for yourself. As for the second: Syd him/herself (I assume it's a he) is probably not notable, but his commentaries tend to be insightful and entertaining, and this one is relevant to the article.  Other reviews he's written on this topic are linked to quite a few other articles; none of the ones I've checked qualify as linkspam under WP's definitions.  Moppet 06:39, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

More on the awesome link
The comedy review is neither notable nor relevant to the article. I got a kick out of reading some of the jokes, they weren't horribly unfunny or anything, but jokes are simply not relevant information. This is not a professional review, and even those should be linked to sparingly. This article is not one with multiple points of view. The article really shouldn't concern itself with whether the game is good or not, but rather information about the game. There is nothing in External_links that truly supports the link staying. It's clearly WP:SPAM. Croctotheface 19:30, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If you mean the "satiric review", I agreed with you and removed the link. --Takeel 17:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Considerable cleanup
I just did what could be considered a major cleanup of this article. Please reply here with any comments, or edit away on your own. --Takeel 17:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

An arcade game?
I'm pretty sure there was something like a Super Punch-Out!! arcade game, where they brought back the "green" see-through boxer from the original, but the graphics very much resemble the SNES. Anyone know what this is? I think I saw it being played on a recent episode of Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip perhaps? Note: I am not talking about Super Punch-Out!! (arcade game), which was much earlier. --PSzalapski 21:05, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Not exactly timely, I'm aware, but the only game that springs to mind is Sega's Prize Fight (which seems to lack an article as of now.) Gerk 09:37, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Development + Reception sections
I combined the Development and Reception sections into one "History" section as what is normally recommended in WP:VG/MOS in addition to the fact that there is only one paragraph in that Development section. I felt that it was better to combine into one section to provide consistency in the lengths of the sections in the article. Any thoughts for or against it? MuZemike 07:33, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Credits
Adding Hiroshi Yamauchi to the credits is redundant. As a former president of Nintendo in Japan, he was credited behind nearly every Nintendo title until Satoru Iwata took his place as president. I believe it is best to stick with the main developers behind this game. Parrothead1983 (talk) 21:09, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Bob Charlie
I've noticed that he is extremely similar to Bob Marley. I've added it in the article already 12.73.212.99 (talk) 02:22, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * And I'm taking it back out until a reliable secondary source can be found. No original research, please. MuZemike 02:32, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * So what your saying is that I should find a good source before adding that info in? 12.73.212.220 (talk) 13:15, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, for instance magazine articles like Nintendo Power, newspaper articles that may document anything about said lawsuits, anything—print or online—from sources reputable for fact-checking and accuracy. For more information read our verifability policy and reliable source guideline. Thank you, MuZemike 21:10, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

More development info
Is the info from this interview necessary for the development section? Parrothead1983 (talk) 04:10, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

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